my two headed monster,.,.,.,.

scdiveteam said:
Leon,

Show Jamie the site with the standard design features that are 100s and 1000s of years old. That may shine some light on this discussion. We know these are not vectorized geometries and you have to physically draw them on your Cad and there is no tracing or anything like that.

I for one have been accused of ripping off Omega DPK by using complex box veneer rings on some of my cues when in fact they were inspired from decor trim on furniture legs from the 18th century French Master Furniture makers.

Those design elements on those websites are seen everywhere, ornamental filigree, China, Silverware, architecture, fabric, and even neck ties, LOL.

I think if He sees one of the sites, he may embrace the fact that there are very few elements that have been placed on cues that are not a derivative of something from past history. Even if you sit down and draw something creative, it has been done before in someway somewhere.. Billions of people have come before us.

Again, "The Game is the Same, The Players are New".

This is a good thread if in the end, people are educated to facts as they truly exist concerning this subject.

JMO,

Rick
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You have to compare apples to apples. Designs used WITHIN your own industry MAY come from other sources/times outside your industry, happens all the time, but I believe if they're used within that specific industry in a way that defines ones work it should be left for that maker to use exclusively regardless of its availability. Kind of like "finders keepers".. well you know the rest...

I mean, as you've pointed out, there are 100's, 1000's, Billions, of ways for one to get inspiration with many many designs "everywhere" from ornamental filigree, China, Silverware, architecture, fabric, AND EVEN neckties for one to "use"...SO, why would one need, OR even want, to use what someone else is using when you can choose from soooooo much that's readily available...right?
 
skins said:
You have to compare apples to apples. Designs used WITHIN your own industry MAY come from other sources/times outside your industry, happens all the time, but I believe if they're used within that specific industry in a way that defines ones work it should be left for that maker to use exclusively regardless of its availability. Kind of like "finders keepers".. well you know the rest...

I mean, as you've pointed out, there are 100's, 1000's, Billions, of ways for one to get inspiration with many many designs "everywhere" from ornamental filigree, China, Silverware, architecture, fabric, AND EVEN neckties for one to "use"...SO, why would one need, OR even want, to use what someone else is using when you can choose from soooooo much that's readily available...right?
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"finders keepers" ....well i guess nobody should do point work because someone found out how to do it before you......those of you shall not use a notched diamond in your cue because George used it first....i shall not use a peacock any where in my cue because it's a crime...i shall not use a smooth blk leather wrap on my cue...i shall not use dot's or barbells, or windows, i shall not use a hoppe ring because it was used before you ever came along.....i shall not use a ivory over stainless joint because john doe used it.....i shall not use floating points with offset inlays in them if so that means i copied another cue......i shall not put linen wraps on because teddy does that....I shall not use a crown cap because 20 other makers done it before me......well i just found a new design and i used it in my cue now i see it in billys cue that was made by another cue maker.. oh well get over it because you'll see that design more and more in others sooner then you can say copycat.
 
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This particular design resembles a BB
Guerra Cues resembles a Sugartree
Esoteric cues resembles a DPK
A KIA K900 resembles a Jaguar XE

Looks similar until you look at the details of the interior and under the hood.
If Jaguar doesn't have a problem with Kia copying them then I guess the same goes here. The cue purest will always be against this. I mean the people that love cues beyond the appearance of them. But it goes deeper with history of the cuemaker and how he got to this point and the style that he brought with him through all the years.
 
Ghost82, don't throw me on this discussion because my ringwork has nothing to do with Eric's. It has a more SW flavor I would say.
Woods choice I'm inspired by whatever I feel it goes well together, I'm flattered and humbled by saying it looks like a Sugartree, but that has to do with the crazy woods I get.
Eric is still the crazy wood King in my book and it will always be.
I actually have a new ringwork that I will be inlaying on the next set of cues, more Greek inspired.
 
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Guerra Cues said:
Ghost82, don't throw me on this discussion because my ringwork has nothing to do with Eric's. It has a more SW flavor I would say.
Woods choice I'm inspired by whatever I feel it goes well together, I'm flattered and humbled by saying it looks like a Sugartree, but that has to do with the crazy woods I get.
Eric is still the crazy wood King in my book and it will always be.
I actually have a new ringwork that I will be inlaying on the next set of cues, more Greek inspired.
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Just going off of your response I will apologize for bringing you in. My hats off to you for working on something new. And yes you do have an eye for making woods look good together!
 
ghost82 said:
Just going off of your response I will apologize for bringing you in. My hats off to you for working on something new. And yes you do have an eye for making woods look good together!
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It's all good. I know it's easy to compare but my stash of wood is not even at the same level as Eric's.
 
leon sly said:
"finders keepers" ....well i guess nobody should do point work because someone found out how to do it before you......those of you shall not use a notched diamond in your cue because George used it first....i shall not use a peacock any where in my cue because it's a crime...i shall not use a smooth blk leather wrap on my cue...i shall not use dot's or barbells, or windows, i shall not use a hoppe ring because it was used before you ever came along.....i shall not use a ivory over stainless joint because john doe used it.....i shall not use floating points with offset inlays in them if so that means i copied another cue......i shall not put linen wraps on because teddy does that....I shall not use a crown cap because 20 other makers done it before me......well i just found a new design and i used it in my cue now i see it in billys cue that was made by another cue maker.. oh well get over it because you'll see that design more and more in others sooner then you can say copycat.
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You didn't comprehend what I said. I said, "In a way it "DEFINES" ones work".... Last time I checked none of those elements in general, with the exception of the "peacock" and maybe Crown butt cap, are used in such a specific way that it defines ones cues. You could also include the "Hoppe" ring but with that, none of the original users are still around who "own" nor still use that element to define their work and for profit so it's fair game IMO... If any elements do/did define a makers work AND is still being used by them or anyone else who was either passed OR exclusively sold "the business", THEN that/those elements should not be used in "THEIR" form/way... The only exception to that is if you have the go ahead from that maker IMO.

As for the common elements like diamonds, dots, points ect., it's not so much THAT you use them as much as it is HOW... It seems like a fine line but actually it's pretty clear to me and easy to stay on one side or the other....As for George, I think I clarified my stance on copying him in my thread...
 
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ghost82 said:
This particular design resembles a BB
Guerra Cues resembles a Sugartree
Esoteric cues resembles a DPK
A KIA K900 resembles a Jaguar XE

Looks similar until you look at the details of the interior and under the hood.
If Jaguar doesn't have a problem with Kia copying them then I guess the same goes here. The cue purest will always be against this. I mean the people that love cues beyond the appearance of them. But it goes deeper with history of the cuemaker and how he got to this point and the style that he brought with him through all the years.
Click to expand...


The whole Auto Industry is notorious for knocking each other off..

The Furniture Industry is really bad, Most manufacturers will blatantly copy a successful design..

Rags is another industry that's known for knocking off..

It's all around us....
 
scdiveteam said:
Yes, the desirability is the key but you have to have the balls to demand the kind of prices that Tony gets. Rome is never built in a day. He puts a price on his time and culls the potential customers. Tony has paid his dues for his elite status. Those who see the value pay the price. The ones that don't, buy cues of lessor value somewhere else. Markets are always right, people are wrong.

Leon can build any cue he wants and has all the skill sets to do as he pleases. So when a customer requests a cue like this he just fills an order. That's what professional CMs do. Fill orders by building cues. It does no hurt to Tony and makes Leon's customer happy. As far as workmanship or craftmanship is concerned his work speaks for itself.

So I say making cues like this is just a snap shot of the product that comes from Leon's shop at this time. The question is what will he be doing in 5 years when they are lining up to pay 10 grand for one of his future monster cues.

Being a full time cue maker and supporting a household is not and easy thing to do. Leon makes it look easy me thinks and that is the most important thing to do. Support yourself and pay your way in life.

I don't see any CMs knocking Leon because almost every one of them did the same thing that Leon is doing at one time before they developed individuality in their design. Cue Making is a journey and developmental process. There are no short cuts to getting to be recognized at a Master's Level. You must go through that process one step at a time. That is what my friend Leon has been doing.

JMO,

Rick
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I just love your wisdom and hypocrisy Rick.
What's next , you're gonna preach about race and gender sensitivity?
 
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JoeyInCali said:
I just love your wisdom and hypocrisy Rick.
What's next , you're gonna preach about race and gender sensitivity?
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If you want me to preach Joey, I will oblige:

Do unto others as they do unto you.

When God's grace is shown to you, be grateful.


Enough Preaching!

Rick
 
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scdiveteam said:
If you want me to preach Joey, I will oblige:

Do on to others as they do onto you.

When God's grace is shown to you, be grateful.


Enough Preaching!

Rick
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Oh please, keep preaching Rick.
We need to hear all your kindness, wisdom and honesty.
You are such a dignified person.
 
Design theft is definitely not an easy topic. More and more people are ignoring intellectual property rights and blatantly stealing from others. Unfortunately, in circumstances like the pool cue market where there isn't that much money for any one maker it's not worth it to take the issues to court. That said, just because you can doesn't mean you should.
 
READY TO CORE SOME HANDLES & FRONTS...PLEASE KEEP THIS THREAD GOING.
MORE ORDERS TODAY THANKS SO MUCH.:thumbup:

 
JoeyInCali said:
Oh please, keep preaching Rick.
We need to hear all your kindness, wisdom and honesty.
You are such a dignified person.
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With almost 20000 posts, that's almost a post or two on every thread.
You must be trying to beat a record or you have way to much time on your hands...
 
Guerra Cues said:
With almost 20000 posts, that's almost a post or two on every thread.
You must be trying to beat a record or you have way to much time on your hands...
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And you have 7000 in 5 years that includes time in hiding.
Not counting your posts as Best Kites.
And you're welcome on those well-seasoned coring dowels I let you have for next to nothing .
 
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JoeyInCali said:
And you have 7000 in 5 years that includes time in hiding.
Not counting your posts as Best Kites.
And you're welcome on those well-seasoned coring dowels I let you have for next to nothing .
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Joey, I am just sick of seeing ya'll girl fights on AZB. Insane... You guys are almost 50 or over right? I am a thankful guy and I always thanked you for all the good deals. So, not worth it to point that out. I am thankful and humble.
If you want the dowels back I can send them back to you and you don't need to give me the money back. Do I owe you anything for them?
FYI... 7000 posts in 9 years, that includes the posts with my original username 2016-2007=9. Get your facts straight.
 
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If I was a cue builder I would never post on this site. I totally understand why many who did at one time no longer do. I appreciate those that do, don't get me wrong, but why take the abuse unless you are a masochist.
 
Shooter08 said:
If I was a cue builder I would never post on this site. I totally understand why many who did at one time no longer do. I appreciate those that do, don't get me wrong, but why take the abuse unless you are a masochist.
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you are 1000% spot on to many chiefs and not enough Indians:deadhorse:
 
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