Name your TOP 5 IPT Las Vegas players. Who's your dark horse?
- Thread starter f210
- Start date
time_is_now said:
Hey guys,
I've Emailed www.stanjames.com they have confirmed that they will have pre-tourny outright lines for all IPT events, and will offer select matches throughout the tourny.
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my picks
I can't believe nobody has mentioned Jason Kirkwood??? He plays awesome 8 ball. Other dark horses, Troy Frank, Scott Frost, Denver Barger, and of course Chris Bartam. Anyone wanna gamble on these???f210 said:
my picks
I can't believe nobody has mentioned Jason Kirkwood??? He plays awesome 8 ball. Other dark horses, Troy Frank, Scott Frost, Denver Barger, and of course Chris Bartam. Anyone wanna gamble on these???f210 said:
No offense taken Colin. I was told what happened to Ronnie in the China qualifier and it was ugly. Ronnie was playing like he was brain dead being in a foreign environment. He was way outside his comfort zone being in a surrounding that was all new to him. Look what happened when he got back to familiar surroundings, Las Vegas USA. I can relate to that, I'd be lost for a few days too if asked to make a cue in somebody else's shop.Colin Colenso said:
It's been 6 months since the KOTH so with all the 8Ball match-ups that went on here, I think that 8Ball strategy can't be a downfall for these guys anymore. So the Pinoys are ready. What I do see as a downfall for most of the Euros, who play Euro style 8-Ball, would be the lack of "muscle memory" for the equipment that'll be used in American style 8-ball. You did mention that the Europeans use different spec equipment when playing 8 right? They need to practice using the same spec equipment or they won't be contenders. I'm a Ronnie O' fan but he's a good example for this "muscle memory" that I mentioned. He's great with the big table and smaller balls but not really world beater with the regulation pool equipment. The one factor is "muscle memory" for the equipment used.
My prediction:
Efren or Mika
Marlon
Tademy
Orcullo
Thorsten
Alcano
Pagulayan
Archer
Varner
Bustamante
Lely
bandido said:
The UK 8 ball players of course have played the majority of their pool on Uk style equipment.However many of them,long before IPT came into being,were from time to time playing and doing well in,8 ball and 9 ball tournaments on American equipment.
Furthermore,most of the Uk 8ball players who have been granted cards have invested in their own private IPT spec tables and cloths several weeks/months ago or have at least arranged regular access to IPT tables belonging to others.I understand some are even sleeping on IPT spec tables never mind practising on them
Ignore their chances at your peril
Huge outsider I'd add to the mix......Chinese player Jianbo Fu.......focused,talented and clinical finisher.
memikey said:The UK 8 ball players of course have played the majority of their pool on Uk style equipment.However many of them,long before IPT came into being,were from time to time playing and doing well in,8 ball and 9 ball tournaments on American equipment.
Furthermore,most of the Uk 8ball players who have been granted cards have invested in their own private IPT spec tables and cloths several weeks/months ago or have at least arranged regular access to IPT tables belonging to others.I understand some are even sleeping on IPT spec tables never mind practising on them
Ignore their chances at your peril
Huge outsider I'd add to the mix......Chinese player Jianbo Fu.......focused,talented and clinical finisher.
Not ignoring but simply replying to Colin's post.
Colin Colenso said:
I don't really think that any possibility that an opponent may do in preparation for what's ahead is ignored here. If it's done here then it's most likely done there. I guess the level of preparation depends on who's hungrier.
The Fillipinos are phenomenal and can be expected to be phenomenal at every game played over the green felt for two reasons, eight ball included.
1) as noted by John Schmidt, their great work ethic
2) their general capacity for superior tactical conceptualization in all games
Anything tactical they don't know yet about eight ball, they will know soon. Let's give credit to the Fillipinos, who always seem to rase the bar higher in tactical conceptualization.
Still, any claim that the Fillipinos aren't ready to go in the eight ball discipline is seemingly invalidated by the fact that Reyes, Bustamante and Manalo were the top three in the race to face the King of the Hill in Orlando.
1) as noted by John Schmidt, their great work ethic
2) their general capacity for superior tactical conceptualization in all games
Anything tactical they don't know yet about eight ball, they will know soon. Let's give credit to the Fillipinos, who always seem to rase the bar higher in tactical conceptualization.
Still, any claim that the Fillipinos aren't ready to go in the eight ball discipline is seemingly invalidated by the fact that Reyes, Bustamante and Manalo were the top three in the race to face the King of the Hill in Orlando.
Well
I don't know if I could name top 5, but 2 darkhorses no one has mentioned
are:
1) Gabe Owen
2) James Walden
(and for the user that named Frost, both Gabe and James beat Scott
7 out of 10 times in 8 ball consistently, or 9 ball for that matter, but Scott
would dominate in 1 pocket).
I don't know if I could name top 5, but 2 darkhorses no one has mentioned
are:
1) Gabe Owen
2) James Walden
(and for the user that named Frost, both Gabe and James beat Scott
7 out of 10 times in 8 ball consistently, or 9 ball for that matter, but Scott
would dominate in 1 pocket).
If they do that, then that will push out 75 current tour card holders. Hence my statement that more than 50 can lose their cards.
If it works any other way, it would be HIGHLY unfair and basically a huge protective system for the pre-chosen tour card holders.
There will always be 150 card holders all the time. Top 100 from a given season get a card or get to keep their card, 50 or possibly more who had a card will need to requalify for it.
There's some confusion over whether it will be points OR money. That's unfair in a way, since being 10th in one tournament might let you win $30,000, while being 10th in another lets you win $40,000. If the IPT wants to make it about the "best" not the "luckiest" or those with the "best timing"...it should be based on POINTS, not money. But money will correlate with points pretty closely, but not necessarily. There can be some freak instances, like how the electoral college can elect a president with less popular votes.
Right now there's 150 tour card holders. If 50 HAVE to lose their card, regardless of how well the qualifed players do, that would be very unfair because those bottom 100 tour card holders might rank from 100-200. That would mean that there would be a solid 50 places NOT held by tour card holders that are ranked better (these would be all 50 qualified players)...So tour card holders 100-150 would get to keep their cards even though 50-100 (who are qualifed players) would get nothing. Makes no sense whatsoever.
Bola Ocho said:
May be ridiculous to contemplate but in that scenario which you describe above......100 highest ranked out of the 150 existing card holders would keep their cards for 2007. The 50 qualifiers who had finished in the top 100 would get the whole remaining balance of 50 cards for 2007 (assuming they had all paid the full entry fee and not the half price fee) because IPT have confirmed that all such 'full entry fee' qualifiers finishing top 100 will get cards.There would therefore then already be 150 tour card holders for 2007 and therefore no need for an end of season qualifying competition,meaning 50 bottom ranked 2006 card holders and all other hopefuls would have nothing to play in at Vegas in December and no hope of retaining/earning a 2007 card
The above might also be said to make no sense at all,but IPT have at no time yet amended their original clear indication which was simply that "the bottom ranked 50 tour card holders will lose their cards".If you go to the website Schedule section and read the description of the end of season qualifying competition you will find it.They have also not at any time yet said anything along the lines that "in addition to the bottom 50 ranked card holders any card holder finishing outside the top 100 in the overall 200 player money list, ie including qualifiers, will also lose their cards".
Therein lies the principle source of confusion,even moreso than the points/money issue
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Gimme Efren
These are the two conditions under which I will bet against Chuck Norris.
1. Chuck Norris gives a spot that if his opponent shows up it counts as a loss for Chuck.
2. You give me 150,000,000,000,000 to 1 on the money.
Random fact: Chuck Norris can get McDonald's breakfast after 10:30.
mnorwood said:
These are the two conditions under which I will bet against Chuck Norris.
1. Chuck Norris gives a spot that if his opponent shows up it counts as a loss for Chuck.
2. You give me 150,000,000,000,000 to 1 on the money.
Random fact: Chuck Norris can get McDonald's breakfast after 10:30.
memikey said:May be ridiculous to contemplate but in that scenario which you describe above......100 highest ranked out of the 150 existing card holders would keep their cards for 2007. The 50 qualifiers who had finished in the top 100 would get the whole remaining balance of 50 cards for 2007 (assuming they had all paid the full entry fee and not the half price fee) because IPT have confirmed that all such 'full entry fee' qualifiers finishing top 100 will get cards.There would therefore then already be 150 tour card holders for 2007 and therefore no need for an end of season qualifying competition,meaning 50 bottom ranked 2006 card holders and all other hopefuls would have nothing to play in at Vegas in December and no hope of retaining/earning a 2007 card
The above might also be said to make no sense at all,but IPT have at no time yet amended their original clear indication which was simply that "the bottom ranked 50 tour card holders will lose their cards".If you go to the website Schedule section and read the description of the end of season qualifying competition you will find it.They have also not at any time yet said anything along the lines that "in addition to the bottom 50 ranked card holders any card holder finishing outside the top 100 in the overall 200 player money list, ie including qualifiers, will also lose their cards".
Therein lies the principle source of confusion,even moreso than the points/money issue
Oh I agree. I think when KT or whomever was describing the process, they were assuming (or equating) the 150 card holders to be the top 150 in general. When describing the IPT, I don't think that clarification was necessary as they were still far off from encountering the issue of qualified players scoring well and maybe making it.
I think it will be clarified eventually. In fact, the term "keep" when referring to a tour card shouldn't be used. You don't keep a card, because cards are issued for specific seasons. The top 100 players will earn a tour card for the next season just for being the top 100. That's a much more simplified way of saying it. Easy. The fact that there's 150 tour card holders is irrelevant. The other 50 can come from qualifiers or whatever other process.
Since 150 doesn't fit into 100, this simply means that 50 of the 150 tour card holders will not earn a card for the next season. That doesn't say that it will ONLY be 50, it could be more. Hypothetically, if the 150 current holders ranked 1-150, then yes, the bottom 50 would not earn a card. But if they scatter across the board, from 1-200...still - the bottom 50 will not earn a card, however, if the qualified players do well, more than the bottom 50 current card holders might not earn a card for the next season.
Now, it will be very TOUGH for a qualified player to do get a card if they do not have a strong showing. This is because there are only 2 open tournaments this year, and 2 IPT tournaments. This gives the 150 tour card holders twice the opportunity to gain points/money than a qualified player. To make matters worse (for the qualified players), the qualified players must battle it out to qualify AGAIN for the 2nd open (world open in Reno) unless they finish top 6 in Vegas. There's no guarantee that a qualified player that finishes 30th in Vegas will survive the qualifiers for the next Open tournament. This is a possibility. Those qualifiers can be brutal. Some very good players had to try more than once and struggled.
I'm assuming that the IPT will be handing out points for the Masters and Players tournaments?
A qualified player would need to score enough points/money in 2 tournaments to beat out the points accumulated by at least the bottom 50 IPT card holders over 4 tournaments. And that STILL isn't a 100% guarantee. Those bottom 50 IPT players might be low enough to where other qualified players keep you out of the top 100. It's possible. Given the talent currently in the IPT, getting great finishes will be very hard..we're talking beating out at least 20-30 top world pros to even finish in the top 30. This is round robin also...which makes it even tougher for those who are not seasoned in high-caliber tournament play. If you can't get great finishes, it will be tough to get enough points to beat out even the more lousy card holders. You'd have to figure that you need to land at worst, somewhere in the 70-90 range after 2 tournaments, then PRAY that a good chunk of the current 150 card holders, and all of the qualfied players get slaughtered in every tournament by getting 1st round knock-outs each time. Looking at the list of the 150, I can see a good 25-30 players that will get 1st round eliminations in every tournament..but more than 50 when factoring other qualified players? dunno. Hard to say.
Of course, there's always the tour card qualifiers for next year - that's the best opportunity to get in.
The 2007 season will have significantly more OPEN tournaments, increasing the chances for qualifiers to earn a card that way. That's difficult too, since you must qualify for each and every tournament, and that in itself is expensive and difficult and you have no guarantee of success (even if you are good). However, 2007 season will not be as "protective" for the 150 tour card holders as the ratio of opens vs. players/masters tournaments is much different. Another question becomes determination? Will players put themselves through that kind of risk and effort? Especially when they are border-line IPT skilled? (assuming the IPT roster has settled into the "best")
I've been wondering how difficult or easy future qualifiers will be? Two ideas. One is that as time goes on, the best of the best will get all packed into the tour...thus there will be less of them dangling around in qualifiers posing as an obsticle. Look at Pagulayan..he qualified to get in. He'll most likely earn a card through play and not have to participate in another qualifier so long as his game doesn't completely collapse. So, for the those trying to get in, there will be less and less world-beaters competing in qualifiers.
On the other hand, as the IPT grows and establishes itself, becomes more and more legitimate, gains popularity...it will bring out all sorts of other good players that aren't IPT pros, and haven't tried to enter even a single qualifier yet. There's still a lot of talent out there we know about, then there's talent out there that we don't know about, but are unsure as to whether they exist or not (unknowns, road players etc...). Let's not forget about a lot of the international talent that is not being proportionately represented in the IPT (yet)...
A few folks that will lose their cards after this season do not have a snow ball's chance in he11 of re-qualifying through a tour card qualifier or a tournament qualifier...so, they'd better enjoy the ride now.
Bola Ocho said:
You make some good points, but I'm not so sure about this point. This is what I first thought but if you look at the prize money for the 4 tournaments you will see that they are pretty top heavy. Also given the fact that the first round group stage in each tournament are going to be seeded based on international ranking lists we are going to see alot of the card holders going out in the first round of each event leaving them stuck on 13k. Any open qualifier that wins through a couple of rounds in either of the two open event s is going to beat this amount and earn a card. I think even if a player makes it through the first stage in each of the two non open events I think they will only increase their winnings by a few thousand.
I predict that somewhere around $20k will be enough to earn a card after the 4 tournaments have finished, possibly slightly less. I didn't realise it at first but IMO this represents the easier of the two ways to earn a 2007 card.
billychips said:
I'll give you this, you've got some gamble backing that group.
Tell you what, I'll give you your five and I'll take:
Reyes
Bustamante
Archer
Deuel
Orcullo
Wanna gamble?
u need to understand what a dark horse is
Actually it wouldnt be what you call gambling. If you want to steal, go to 7 Eleven and rob them. If you understood what a dark horse was, maybe you could pick one, and not just 5 of the favorites Einstein!
McKinneyMiner said:
Actually it wouldnt be what you call gambling. If you want to steal, go to 7 Eleven and rob them. If you understood what a dark horse was, maybe you could pick one, and not just 5 of the favorites Einstein!