National rating system for pool, similar to the United States Chess Federation

ShortBusRuss

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
This is something I have been wondering about.. Maybe it would work.. Maybe not?

In Chess... classes and titles mean a lot to developing players.

For those who don't know how it works, let me give a brief explanation...

Chess classes start out with an alphabetical class rating, that corresponds to a numerical range.. Like so:

USCF rating classes Category Rating range
Senior Master 2400 and up
National Master 2200–2399
Expert (Candidate Master) 2000–2199
Class A 1800–1999
Class B 1600–1799
Class C 1400–1599
Class D 1200–1399
Class E 1000–1199
Class F 800-999
Class G 600-799
Class H 400-599
Class I 200-399
Class J 100-199


Now, these numerical ratings are done on a statistical basis. I don't profess to know the calculation, but I would go so far as to say that the rating system could be adapted to pool.

In essence, a player rated 200 points above you could be expected to win 9 out of 10 games. It is based on pure statistics, so there is not sandbagging ability in this system. One can try to artificially hold their skill level down to win a tournament, but if you crush the field, you rating would go up automatically based on the players you beat.

So, if you happened to be a class E player, rated 1153, and you beat a player rated 1120, your rating might go up 4 points. If you had been practicing heavily, and beat a class A player in a match, your rating might go up 15-20 points.

I am just curious as to whether you think this system might be able to work in pool. We have LOTS more players nationally than chess.. The only problem I see with this is that chess has a strong feeder program and can be played in schools.

That being said, this would likely need to be targeted at adult players, and I am not sure how dedicated adults would be to try to move up from class E to class D, etc..

I am curious as to whether the "money culture" of pool who stop this sort of thing dead in it's tracks. The idea of a national rating system might not appeal at all to the better players, and even at the B level, if this system would be used to exclude players from tournaments, that would not be good.

Short Bus Russ
 
"You'd better pray to God that you play better than a 2100 if you're going to woof at me buddy!" :D
 
Arizona has a rating suystem that hurt player as they get better. Few Event to play.

Plus you have the sand baggers who come to town, and rip off the system, and leave.

Places with NO RATING System seem to do better.

I use to think the AZ Rating System was good, until I saw it work by people to accomplish their personal agendas.
 
I think the incentives are mismatched. In chess, players want the highest number they can achieve to be recognized. In pool, players want the lowest number they can achieve to gamble with. The ratings could never be trusted.
 
Cycling has a rating system that I think is pretty good:
Pro
Category 1
Cat2
Cat3...4..5

The higher skill levels have lower #s, pro is above all.

Races are usuall combined categories, like 4-5, 3-4, pro-1-2, unless there are 50+ entrants in a single cat.

Folks proceed through the cats by finishing well. As I recall, 5 top 5s in a given category and you can request an upgrade; 8 top 5s is mandatory upgrade.

The incentive to move up is better prizes. Cat 5 is awarded merchandise, unless they race with the 4s. First in a 4 race will net about $100, first in a 3 race, about 250and winning a pro race, 750+.

Of course, a couple major differences in pool/ bike racing are:
-Cycling has a highly structured licensing and oversight group, the UScf, in America;
-people below the pro/ cat1 level generally do not approach the activity as a profession.
 
That's called the Elo system and it's the system I used for NomadPool's rankings...

http://nomadpool.com/leaderboards/2

*edit* I should mention that the rankings are informational based on past games and not used for handicapping.

There are a lot of variations of the Elo system but the way I do it is as follows. Between 1-31 points get transferred between players for every match played. The amount of points transferred for a given match depend on the relative skill levels of the winner and loser. The higher ranked player risks losing more points if they lose and wins less if they win. Both sides risk 16 points if they're ranked even.

Anyone can run tournaments on Nomad and every match will keep track of your points and give players achievements like trophies, runouts, 5x wins, etc. You can even challenge your friends to on demand matches which will also count on the leaderboards. Once you get the hang of it, the tournament pretty much runs itself.

In addition to the global leaderboards, you can tie your tournaments and challenges to a given venue and the match will also count on a leaderboard that is specific to that venue. Each venue has its own page showcasing its own leaderboards and tournaments. This is a good way to see how you stack up against the players that you regularly compete with.

If you need a new region or venue added to Nomad, just shoot me a PM. Same goes if you have any questions about running tournaments or the system in general. I'm eager to have people try it out!

-Larry
 
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Problem I see with the comparison to Chess is in Chess there is 1 Game in Pool there are multiple games. So there would have to be a ranking system per game type (as most Amateur system do).
 
longhair said:
I think the incentives are mismatched. In chess, players want the highest number they can achieve to be recognized. In pool, players want the lowest number they can achieve to gamble with. The ratings could never be trusted.
Click to expand...

You are correct sire. Pool players all profess to play bad be out of stroke, dogging it etc. That attitude is not good for the sport but that is what we got do not see it changing anytime soon, might be different in China/Tiawan/PI.
 
longhair said:
I think the incentives are mismatched. In chess, players want the highest number they can achieve to be recognized. In pool, players want the lowest number they can achieve to gamble with. The ratings could never be trusted.
Click to expand...

First post in 4 years, Boyd! Good to see you're still thinking about pool every once in a while.
 
I agree with longhair. So much of pool is based on gambling, or match ups in league play. Too many players do not want a fair match. They; want an edge.
If you and I are even money players, then you give me the 8, I get an advantage and should win the money. Same thing in league play.
 
Pool would benefit from a national universal rating/handicap system like golf has. The obstacles are obvious and even with all the organization and standardization that golf has people still game the system and sandbag. Still is very cool in theory.

Also I think it's worth pointing out that there is a difference between a ranking system and a handicapping one.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
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wrickyb said:
Problem I see with the comparison to Chess is in Chess there is 1 Game in Pool there are multiple games. So there would have to be a ranking system per game type (as most Amateur system do).
Click to expand...

There are multiple formats in chess as well..and different players excel at different formats
 
The math for such a rating system has already been worked out. See Mike Page's article a few years back in Billiards Digest. All it requires as input is the scores from matches. (I think it can also work with just win-loss records but will be less accurate.)

I think all that's really required is getting a bunch of tournament results into a common format and crunching the numbers according to the method Mike worked out. Well, what's really required is someone/something to volunteer for the work. That's the sort of task that is better done by an organization than a single individual.
 
Yhe other problem with a rating Chess, and Golf both are one GAME. Poool could be 8,9, or 10 Ball, Straight Pool, One Pocket, or some other game. Also Table Size make the game different. how would a single rating work.

DCC Event is not rated, but they still have a good turn out with out handicapping anyone,
 
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