Natural ability VS. Trained ability

natural

if it's natural you don't have to think about or study it. ronnie allen told me he had no idea how he did many things, he just knew they would work.
i was not a natural and played 10 years at very low speed, but it's the only thing that i couldn't master that i didn't quit. i loved the game so much. finally i begin to understand it and now play ok." the suckers think i'm a shark and the shakks think i'm a sucker."
 
So many factors to consider....

androd said:
if it's natural you don't have to think about or study it. ronnie allen told me he had no idea how he did many things, he just knew they would work.
i was not a natural and played 10 years at very low speed, but it's the only thing that i couldn't master that i didn't quit. i loved the game so much. finally i begin to understand it and now play ok." the suckers think i'm a shark and the shakks think i'm a sucker."
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I have always heard pool is 95 % mental and 5 % physical . I think better players are smarter players. There is some people who simply have a good mind for games. Most people ( including myself past tense ) keep making the same mistakes over and over again. Learning from your mistakes and taking the necessary steps to fix them is the key. I have seen people catch on really fast. Those are the ones with talent . IMHO

Awareness , concentration , and lots of practice there's no fix all solution to become a good player . Talent comes in a lot of forms.
 
cplayermagic said:
I always enjoy destroying a forum simpleton's overly-idealized fantasies.

Their is know such thing as "Natural Ability" if, bye that, you mean "He can play grate without ever having practiced." Few are lucky enough two have bean born brandishing a queue fresh out of they're mother's womb. Skill is one of the byproducts of practice. (Incidentally, for pool, so is bankruptcy..) What you errantly referred too as "Natural Ability" should, instead, be called "Natural Talent." That being said, aisle pose various questions on you're behalf and then proceed to answer them:

Is it possible to become as good as Eferen (or some of the other greats)?

Yes. That person may even be referred to as "Another one of those greats"

Can he/she surpass someone who has played more?

Yes. This phenomenon is referred to as "Talent" or "The ability to pick things up quickly."

So this differs from "Natural Ability?"

Bingo.

Let me draw a parallel: take <Insert Pro Here> back in time to the first day he played pool. Let him practice for a month. I thawed about it; he gets the 5 and out.
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Thanks for the EXCELLENT, well thought out post. Be sure to stop back again soon. I'm sure I won't be the only one eagerly awaiting your return.
 
Many players

think a lot faster than other players, whether a novice or a pro. The 2 comparisons I would make would be Rodney Morris, lots of natural talent,
vs. Ralf Souquet, logic oriented or learned talent.

Another thing is, most players, as players age, they become more logic oriented in lieu of natural. In the long run, your logic or learned talent players are the most consistent winners.

Efren is an exception, and is a combination of natural and logic. What is different about Efren is his mental abilities to logically come up with the best natural way to perform a shot, in this way he is a natural, but comes by it with logic, natural logic.

Natural players tend to go with their feelings, or instincts, logic players tend to go with their thoughts.
 
I think the only limiting factors of a fully abled person towards becoming a pro-speed player are desire dedication and confidence.
If you don't have any mental/physical handicaps that would somehow limit your ability to play pool, and you really wanted to become a great player, in my mind there should be nothing stoping you.

As long as you really desired to get that good, put in all of the time and effort, and had a child-like (in the positive sense) belief that you can do anything I really don't see a reason why you can't get there.

I think most people just subcionsiously doubt they have the potential. They also spend too much time focusing on the wrong things - and not nearly enough time getting into games they aren't the favorite to win in (gambling/tournaments anything for pressure). Everyone just wants to get in games that they think they're a huge favorite in, so they have no pressure on them - and then 'hit balls' for hours and expect to get any good.
How many pro's (and esp. top-level players) do you know that didn't get in the box vs better players, and play under a lot of pressure. Do you think they just kept on beating up on weaker players as they progressed? No, they progressed because they kept getting beat up on until they were good enough to give the beatings back -- and then they'd move on to someone else who'd give them another beating.

I get tired of hearing people say "I'll never get that good" when they never ever push themselves to get any better.

In short;
[ ] Hard work can only take you so far, natural talent will get you to the top
[x] Natural talent can only get you so far, hard work will get you to the top.

Now obviously if a person with a more natural inclination to w/e it is he/she is doing puts in the same time and dedication as a person with less 'natural ability' they will probably get to a level with more ease, but that doesn't mean the other person won't get to that level as well.
 
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Island Drive said:
I've always thought Jeff Carter was a great example of hard work, determination and never gave up. His talent never seemed natural, but his got great results after many years of hard work.
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Great example, Bill. Another one I think of is Jeremy Jones.
 
jrt30004 said:
wow chico - you got brass calling someone a simpleton with those fancy spelling skills you got there. and i just want to clarify myself on your point, you are saying that if everyone practiced the same amount as the pros do, we could all be pros. is that what you're saying? because that's nonsense. there is such as thing as god given ability. i can play the drums and i never took a lesson in my life. a friend of mine from way back played football at miami and then in the pros. he and i went to the same football camps, played in the same pop warner division he just had more TALENT. i play a good amount of pool and i'm always getting better but i am 37 years old and no matter how many lessons i take with pros, how many hours i shoot drills, there is a level i will not go beyond. that's a fact. if it wasn't a fact eveyone who ever picked up a cue and practiced would be playing the pro's. so i hate to crush another simpletons dream - but you need to practice your spelling and lay off the vodka and xanax before you start to bash another member on the forum for asking a simple question.
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I'm not exactly sure how you managed to "clarify yourself on my point" while not having the basic linguistic skills afforded by a high school Good-Enough-Degree. Obviously you completely missed the point and seem confused - much like a blind yak may headbutt a tree with its crotch. Pay attention, simpleton.

jrt30004 said:
you are saying that if everyone practiced the same amount as the pros do, we could all be pros. is that what you're saying?
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No. That is not what I am saying. My claims are:

1. Anyone can become "Pro-level"
2. Some may take longer than others.

You just might play those drums better had you taken lessons and/or practiced (and if you didn't possess the agility of a recycled toilet paper roll). The point here, simpleton, is that although there may be "such as thing" as people who seem "natural," it typically is the case that those people just have "talent." Getting discouraged and giving up hope of success is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Perhaps you've heard the saying "Not with that attitude you can't!!"

Have fun struggling with mediocrity, gramps.
 
cplayermagic said:
No. That is not what I am saying. My claims are:

1. Anyone can become "Pro-level"
2. Some may take longer than others.
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Well, your wrong.

I know people that have been trying to better their game for maybe 19 years and despite getting better in that time, they are NEVER going to be pro level.
EVER

It is something that is just not inside of them, and never will be.

On the other hand, i remember when Corey's mom FIRST brought him to the pool room, when he couldn't make a ball, and he had skateboarder hair, and a buffalo bills cap holding the mop back and was like 4 feet tall.

Once he started playing, his learning curve was exponential, and WE ALL KNEW, that he was going to make his mark on the pool world.
I don't think there was a doubt in anyone's mind.


So.

Why don't you prove to us all that you can play at pro level, and go out and snap off a couple of pro level events.

I mean, if anyone can do it, then surely YOU can.
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Well, your wrong.

I know people that have been trying to better their game for maybe 19 years and despite getting better in that time, they are NEVER going to be pro level.
EVER

It is something that is just not inside of them, and never will be.

On the other hand, i remember when Corey's mom FIRST brought him to the pool room, when he couldn't make a ball, and he had skateboarder hair, and a buffalo bills cap holding the mop back and was like 4 feet tall.

Once he started playing, his learning curve was exponential, and WE ALL KNEW, that he was going to make his mark on the pool world.
I don't think there was a doubt in anyone's mind.


So.

Why don't you prove to us all that you can play at pro level, and go out and snap off a couple of pro level events.

I mean, if anyone can do it, then surely YOU can.
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Quick question, If Corey would have been lets say 30 years old the first time he started playing pool do you think his learning curve might have been the same. Or is this "natural talent" something that only a child can get when first introduced to a sport ?
 
glad i don't mind getting banned

original post deleted. i changed my mind. i'm not getting banned to debate this moron. a yak head butting......with it's crotch. enough said. i love winning battles i don't even have to fight.
 
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cplayermagic said:
- much like a blind yak may headbutt a tree with its crotch. Pay attention, simpleton.



Have fun struggling with mediocrity, gramps.
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While on vaccation, invest in Microsoft Word. You can scrawl your jibberish therre and it will spell check for you ( you don't need to be smart enough to spell yourself ) and cut/paste here without people pointing out your glaring abuse of the English language.


Oh, you might do some reading too. I would like to suggest this for starters.
http://www.amazon.com/Manners-Excru...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224421865&sr=1-2

BTW, you should have listened to my warning the last time.
Enjoy your break.
 
Snapshot9 said:
. The 2 comparisons I would make would be Rodney Morris, lots of natural talent,
vs. Ralf Souquet, logic oriented or learned talent.
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I have got to disagree with you there. You just don't get a stroke like Ralph's without natural talent.

And Tony Robles told me that Ralph only plays about once a week. NO one stays at Ralph's level if they played as much as he does, not even Efren.

And I am surprised that no one has discussed Harold Worst's talent. Didn't he start late in life and just take up pool as a hobby? This is a case of pure talent just blowing away all of the practice practice practice players.
 
fsarfino said:
Quick question, If Corey would have been lets say 30 years old the first time he started playing pool do you think his learning curve might have been the same. Or is this "natural talent" something that only a child can get when first introduced to a sport ?
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You know, you bring up a very good point in the whole natural ability hard work ability issue.

I cannot answer that on account of it not actually happening, and anything i might think would be pure speculation.

But, I have a very specific psych upbringing/background. So i am the type of person that watches behavior patterns of people i come in contact with and tries to figure out the "WHY?" of situations.

Having said that, people's brains are very unique. Personalities are very ingrained and people for the most part, have very specific patterns of behavior or traits throughout their lifetime.

Having known Corey since he first started playing pool, i don't know if it would have been different if he started late, but what i do know is that he had a knack for observing little details about the game that no one else would pick up on.
Just like when he would miss a shot, and the balls would react a certain way, and then it wasn't about making the shot anymore, but instead would be like, "Did you see that?!?!?!" with an excited voice.

And you'd be like, "see what?"

And he'd set up the shot again, and explain what happened when he missed, and how the balls reacted because of some double kiss or some new cloth slide or something.
Then he'd find a situation where that particular "MISS" might come in handy, and PRACTICE IT. (a particular double kiss bank shot that i have made tons of money betting on comes to mind as just one example)

So regardless of what his actual physical ability might have been limited to if he started later, I still think his BRAIN would have allowed him to go further with greater ease, then the average person.

If you ask me, he was born with a higher Visual-Spatial and Bodily-Kinesthetic intelligence. (if you believe those theories)

That basically translates into he has a higher pool aptitude.

Which some people have, and some people clearly don't.

Excellent question by the way.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
While on vaccation, invest in Microsoft Word. You can scrawl your jibberish therre and it will spell check for you ( you don't need to be smart enough to spell yourself ) and cut/paste here without people pointing out your glaring abuse of the English language.


Oh, you might do some reading too. I would like to suggest this for starters.
http://www.amazon.com/Manners-Excru...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224421865&sr=1-2

BTW, you should have listened to my warning the last time.
Enjoy your break.
Click to expand...


Thank you Mr. Wilson
 
Mr. Wilson said:
While on vaccation, invest in Microsoft Word. You can scrawl your jibberish therre and it will spell check for you ( you don't need to be smart enough to spell yourself ) and cut/paste here without people pointing out your glaring abuse of the English language.


Oh, you might do some reading too. I would like to suggest this for starters.
http://www.amazon.com/Manners-Excru...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224421865&sr=1-2

BTW, you should have listened to my warning the last time.
Enjoy your break.
Click to expand...

thanks. mr. w.
 
IMO no one without some natural ability.. ever dedicate themselves to the point of being great..

alot of people play a few racks ...they can't hit $hit and they say this is not for me...

once in a while you get a guy who gets lucky and runs a few... and thinks to himself I could be good at this.... and another pool player is born..

without some form of natural ability... there is no desire to train ..

the people who get good at this WANT to get good at this... or they don't.. end of story
 
Example of Hard Work

Kurt Warner, not to dismiss those who are hardwired from birth to excel at a particular sport or other discipline.

Some people's luck in the genetic's pool gives them a slight advantage over someone not so blessed.

I have however met many a person that just knew how to do something, but had no idea in the world how to transmit their knowledge to another. In other words they just knew how but did not really know why. IMO I would rather know why something happened than just to be present when it did.

Maybe for the great ones it is a mixture of both.
 
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