Nature vs Nurture: New study in favor of Nature

Bob Jewett said:
There are more than a few examples of unequal potential in "The Sports Gene." The author includes lots of footnotes and references if you want to pursue it further.

The inequality factor is most evident in predominantly physical sports like track and field and basketball and baseball, but I think it is also present in cue sports.

John, I really think you need to read the book before continuing this discussion.
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I will read the book.

Give us examples in cue sports. Show me players that trained as hard as Shane Van Boening who had the same or similar upbringing with good players to mentor them who didn't achieve world class skill.

I already agree with the biological aspect as pertains to physically challenging sports. No way I will be a great basketball player. But I don't believe in a "pool" gene, yet.

Edit. Just bought it. Will read it when the tablet gets here, easier than on the phone.
 
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Science is not anywhere close to figuring out the power of the mind. If you read these mumbo jumbo articles or books that limit your belief then you are only doing yourself harm. Try reading The Biology of Belief if you want a better way to look at how genes affect performance imo.
 
as a musician, it is obvious why this study found little difference between the twins: the tests described are childlishly simple for anyone who's done ANY amount of music. so even extreme differences in practice wouldn't make a whit of difference.
 
wigglybridge said:
as a musician, it is obvious why this study found little difference between the twins: the tests described are childlishly simple for anyone who's done ANY amount of music. so even extreme differences in practice wouldn't make a whit of difference.
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I came across some online tests and one of them was to tell if a tone was the same or not. I failed miserably and I wonder if I would improve with study of notes and developing an ear for the nuance.

I bet I would and also develop some new skill in the process.
 
wigglybridge said:
as a musician, it is obvious why this study found little difference between the twins: the tests described are childlishly simple for anyone who's done ANY amount of music. so even extreme differences in practice wouldn't make a whit of difference.
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It wouldn't have been accepted into that journal with such a simple counter-explanation.

The actual result was that identical twins were more similar on this test than fraternal twins, which is the standard way of measuring heritability. But they did find that practice and musical experience had a strong impact on test performance.
 
I haven't read the Sports Gene book, but I know about this stuff in general. The dirty little secret is that virtually everything is more highly heritable than most people think. Identical twins are always more similar than fraternal twins, usually a lot more similar, and on traits you wouldn't think they would be: religiosity, musical tastes, political preference, criminality, not to mention the likelihood of getting particular diseases and of dying at particular ages.

And here's the crazy part: Identical twins are just as similar if they're raised apart as when they're raised together. It's as if nurture - at least as defined by how and where and by whom they're raised - barely matters at all. Basically, on most things, nature = ~50%, nurture = ~%5. The other ~45% can't be pinned down to anything, at least not in the twin studies.

I don't know if it's politically incorrect, or if it just violates our belief that we're all created equal and that life is fair, but the fact that genes play such a large role in our everyday lives hasn't really gotten out and seeped into popular culture.
 
I know most of you will not put in the effort to understand this...

I dont think the video of Dr. Lipton's that I posted goes in depth enough about his research in epigenetics and I don't like his explanation in the video on the role of the subconscious mind so I edited it out. His book is much better.

Here is a much shorter, introductory video into epigenetics.

http://youtu.be/kp1bZEUgqVI

Our Genes do not have near the power over us as what is believed by some.
 
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JB Cases said:
Lots of personal anecdotes. I wonder though how many of you who believe that nature determines success would bristle and be defensive if you were told you will never ever be better than you are right now?

Then you get pissed and prove that statement wrong...and are told the same thing again....

I prefer to optimistically believe in human achievement and lean on history....which shows a steady increase in human performance in all human endeavors.
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Very well said!

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2
 
bdorman said:
See comments above.
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I can't speak to teaching pool to people, I'm quite horrible.

But I can speak to trying to teach "feel" and natural rhythm in music to someone who has none. It may very well be possible, after decades, to make some progress with this, but if they have no natural feel, it doesn't mater how much they practice, its not gonna happen.

The guitar player in my school boy band practiced endlessly, and took lessons on a weekly basis. He couldn't "feel" the time to change chords naturally, no matter what. I would have to cue him from the drum kit, so he would know when there was a change, or when to end a solo, or any number of things. And this guy was diligent. And skillful, he could play Eruption effortlessly, back in the day when that wasn't a given. At least for a garage band hack.

Some things are indeed "natural." Defining and explaining music is one of them. Pool may very well be, too.
 
justadub said:
I can't speak to teaching pool to people, I'm quite horrible.

But I can speak to trying to teach "feel" and natural rhythm in music to someone who has none. It may very well be possible, after decades, to make some progress with this, but if they have no natural feel, it doesn't mater how much they practice, its not gonna happen.

The guitar player in my school boy band practiced endlessly, and took lessons on a weekly basis. He couldn't "feel" the time to change chords naturally, no matter what. I would have to cue him from the drum kit, so he would know when there was a change, or when to end a solo, or any number of things. And this guy was diligent. And skillful, he could play Eruption effortlessly, back in the day when that wasn't a given. At least for a garage band hack.

Some things are indeed "natural." Defining and explaining music is one of them. Pool may very well be, too.
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Here's a fun thing for you to try... Lots of good pool players are rhythm players... You let them get into motion with their own timing and rhythm you will more or less have to close the place down on them to get them to stop or figure out a way to shark them and slow them down....

If you are horrible... Try something new... Load your mp3 player with the songs that resonate with you and practice for a week with the headphones... At the end of the week play someone you shouldn't beat... With the soundtrack and the headphones.... Report back... you don't have to be a pro to be a rhythm player.. You just have to have a rhythm you can tap into...

Chris
 
.willingness runs on the fuel of desire and the oil of passion.

I understand, and she probably knows this and gravitates towards other interests. We all walk the earth with a different destiny and playing pool is for those few and far between - even though I've always had a gift for pool my journey has gravitated towards other areas.

My point about willingness takes for granted the persons grasp on reality....I do believe if someone isn't talented in a certain area then willingness to succeed in this field will not even be part of their aspirations.....the "willingness engine" runs on the fuel of desire and the oil of passion. 'The Inner Game is our Teacher'



one stroke said:
That may be true but everyone's potential is not the same this has been proven countless times ,, yes there are many cases of where talent has been held hostage and potential is never reached and some exceed potential ,, but the truly elite don't come from the average potential person ,,
If fact I am getting a big dose of it right now teaching my youngest daughter to play ,,
My other 2 picked it up fairly easy as also my brothers but she is another matter ,, she can't throw the ball in the ocean ,, clearly not as talented as my other 2 ,,
That's Nature ,,,,


1
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It is becoming clear that genes can be switched on and off and or turned up or down.Two of the most powerful ways to do this is through nutrition and beliefs. You must eat well and believe in your abilities, along with your ability to learn, in order to turn on and up the proper genes within you. If you choose to see yourself as a victim of your genes then your belief in yourself will disappear at the first sight of adversity. And without belief certain Genes are turned on creating a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
(((Satori))) said:
It is becoming clear that genes can be switched on and off and or turned up or down.Two of the most powerful ways to do this is through nutrition and beliefs. You must eat well and believe in your abilities, along with your ability to learn, in order to turn on and up the proper genes within you. If you choose to see yourself as a victim of your genes then your belief in yourself will disappear at the first sight of adversity. And without belief certain Genes are turned on creating a self fulfilling prophecy.
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Is there science for this?

If so what can I eat to turn down the "want to shoot trolls" gene?
 
JB Cases said:
Is there science for this?

If so what can I eat to turn down the "want to shoot trolls" gene?
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Yes, Dr. Mark Hyman has a great book on the subject of nutrition and how it effects our genes called The Ultramind Solution and Dr. Bruce Lipton has the best info I know of regarding our beliefs and their effects on our genes. Both go into detail on the science behind it.
 
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This is not exactly a good test for musical ability but the technical aspects of is. It's like having someone tell what type of wood a bat is made out of by examining it instead of having them try to hit a home run. Just because you can hear a certain pitch or catch the variance in tempo, does not mean you can create music or play an instrument.

The best of the best would need both natural ability with how your brain was wired as well as practice and instruction.

One or the other will only get you so far. Which is why I'm always wondering if I would be really good at something but I just have not tried my hand at it. Mountain climbing maybe or selling chickens instead of working with computers.
 
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JB Cases said:
I came across some online tests and one of them was to tell if a tone was the same or not. I failed miserably and I wonder if I would improve with study of notes and developing an ear for the nuance.

I bet I would and also develop some new skill in the process.
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In "The Sports Gene", the author writes of Dan McLaughlin, who at the age of 30 -after reading books such "Outliers" & "Talent is Overrated"- decided to quit his job and become a pro golfer - in spite of having almost no prior golf or high level athletic experience.

In order to maximize his chances of success, McLaughlin hired a PGA certified instructor and even consulted with Dr. Ericsson (father of the 10k hour hypothesis) in order to design his 10k hour experience for optimal effectiveness.

In addition to the 10k hours of deliberate, focused, engaged practice he spends considerable amount of time on stuff like nutrition, physical fitness, psychology, etc... (none of which counts towards his 10k hours of practice). And of course every practice hour is logged and recorded.

McLaughlin is currently at hour 5,343 and his handicap as of May 1st, 2014 is down to an impressive 3.3. Not bad consider the fact that he had almost no golf experience prior to "The Dan Plan".

My question -especially for all the proponents of the 10,000 hour rule- is: Do you think Dan McLaughlin will get his PGA tour card within 1 year of reaching his 10,000 of practice (probably sometime around 2017)? Or more specifically, what do you think his chances are?

I assume that besides low probability events like health issues (or a healthy male in his early 30's), proponents of the 10k hour rule would think it would be highly likely.

In any case, would love to hear people's thoughts, it might make for some interesting action.
 
BJTyler said:
McLaughlin is currently at hour 5,343 and his handicap as of May 1st, 2014 is down to an impressive 3.3. Not bad consider the fact that he had almost no golf experience prior to "The Dan Plan".

My question -especially for all the proponents of the 10,000 hour rule- is: Do you think Dan McLaughlin will get his PGA tour card within 1 year of reaching his 10,000 of practice (probably sometime around 2017)? Or more specifically, what do you think his chances are?

In any case, would love to hear people's thoughts, it might make for some interesting action. <--BJ..I would be willing
to wager large $$$, (with you or Barton) that he will NEVER qualify for the PGA tour, or even the senior tour ;)
Those last 3-4 strokes, will be VERY hard to come by, then he'll have to work at becoming SUB-PAR, in order to compete with the guys who have a 15-20 year head start on him !
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JB Cases said:
I will read the book.

Give us examples in cue sports. Show me players that trained as hard as Shane Van Boening who had the same or similar upbringing with good players to mentor them who didn't achieve world class skill.<--I have personally known hundreds, John..They made up a good portion of my income for years ! :p

I already agree with the biological aspect as pertains to physically challenging sports. No way I will be a great basketball player. But I don't believe in a "pool" gene, yet. <--and you never will !

Edit. Just bought it. Will read it when the tablet gets here, easier than on the phone.
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John, don't even bother reading the book !..It is obvious you will never admit, that anyone who practices hard, for 10,000 hours, will NOT necessarily become 'world class', at ANYTHING..(especially pool) without 'naturally gifted' genes !..You may be the only intelligent human being, I have ever known, who will stick to their own flawed beliefs, even when the experts can easily prove them wrong !..You are one hard-headed puppy ! :sorry:

SJD

PS..Practicing 10,000 hrs. = 'Persistent individual'..It does NOT = 'Shane Van Boening' !(and never will) :cool:

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SJDinPHX said:
John, don't even bother reading the book !..It is obvious you will never admit, that anyone who practices hard, for 10,000 hours, will NOT necessarily become 'world class', at ANYTHING !..(especially pool)..You may be the only intelligent human being, I have ever known, who will stick to their own flawed beliefs, even when experts can easily prove them wrong !..You are one hard-headed puppy ! :sorry:

SJD

PS..Practicing 10,000 hrs. = 'Hard-headed Sucker'..It does NOT = Shane Van Boening !(and never will) :cool:

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Funny but when one book says the science says X and other says Y then you seem to think one is wrong and the other is right.

Of the hundreds you have known name one and show us the proof that this person had a similar upbringing as Shane and put in the same time as Shane and didn't achieve world class.
 
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