Nature vs Nurture: New study in favor of Nature

[one stroke]

The reasons most people don't achieve their potential is willingness.

Without the true, sincere willingness to change old thoughts, techniques, systems, ideas, beliefs and/or emotions it's not possible to reach a "new level" of being.

It's like a seed trying to remain a "seed," instead of accepting the drastic changes it takes to become a plant, or flower.....caterpillars face the same potential dilemma.

In many cases improvement becomes a "tug of war," where the player is grabbing on to new knowledge, yet unwilling to let go of the old information...at some point one has to win and 9 times out of 10 it's the old stuff that proves victorious...human nature is fascinating. 'The Game is the Teacher'

That may be true but everyone's potential is not the same this has been proven countless times ,, yes there are many cases of where talent has been held hostage and potential is never reached and some exceed potential ,, but the truly elite don't come from the average potential person ,,
If fact I am getting a big dose of it right now teaching my youngest daughter to play ,,
My other 2 picked it up fairly easy as also my brothers but she is another matter ,, she can't throw the ball in the ocean ,, clearly not as talented as my other 2 ,,
That's Nature ,,,,


1

 

[JB Cases]

The Polgar sisters were an experiment by their father Laszlo. As Kasparov was rumored to have called them trained dogs.

Kasparov sounds like an asshole.

 

[xplor]

You may be right John.
Forty years ago, Laszlo Polgar, a Hungarian psychologist, conducted an epistolary courtship with a Ukrainian foreign language teacher named Klara. His letters to her weren't filled with reflections on her cherubic beauty or vows of eternal love. Instead, they detailed a pedagogical experiment he was bent on carrying out with his future progeny or how to turn healthy child into a prodigy.

 

[BasementDweller]

I use to buy into the whole natural ability thing and I pretty much gave up on pool because of it. I've since changed my mind but for those that haven't I guess the question becomes - what if you're wrong? What if you are selling yourself short. And for me personally, I realized what affect this idea has on not just me but on my children and how I raise them. It's really a pretty important question to come to a conclusion on.

 

[liakos]

Everyone who dedicates the time - TRULY puts in the time - becomes a grandmaster at chess. You see this is ALWAYS the catch..... people say oh I have been doing this for 30 years and I still can't master it...but when you really look at their life they didn't put 30 years into one thing deeply, more of a up and down relationship.

People who truly FOCUS and intensely practice are rewarded with mastery of the subject. People who don't are rewarded with increased skill and a lot of frustration.

Well said John!!! You can put all the time in the world into something, but if you don't focus,,, the land of frustration awaits

 

[ceebee]

I use to buy into the whole natural ability thing and I pretty much gave up on pool because of it. I've since changed my mind but for those that haven't I guess the question becomes - what if you're wrong? What if you are selling yourself short. And for me personally, I realized what affect this idea has on not just me but on my children and how I raise them. It's really a pretty important question to come to a conclusion to.

While you are dwelling in your basement, maybe you should use the efforts of Dr Cue, Dr Dave, Bert Kinister, C J Wiley & You Tube to your advantage.

If you know of a buddy, that wants to better his play, bring him along with a month or two of these drills & new knowledge. You'll both be glad you did.

Good Luck...

 

[one stroke]

I use to buy into the whole natural ability thing and I pretty much gave up on pool because of it. I've since changed my mind but for those that haven't I guess the question becomes - what if you're wrong? What if you are selling yourself short. And for me personally, I realized what affect this idea has on not just me but on my children and how I raise them. It's really a pretty important question to come to a conclusion to.

There are exceptions to every rule a mediocre talent can with hard work become a mediocre pro player ,,, struggle to make the cut or the team so on and so on ,, and no if you don't have the memory that fits chess you will never be a grand master

The fact is in most cases this irons itself out thru the childhood yrs as the better players move up to better leagues and the less skilled stay on the same level ,,usually long before high school these players are sorted out ,, many many kids keep playing because the love the game practice like no other but never get above that level that's just the reality of the situation ,, not everyone is pro material ,,



1

 

[xplor]

Progress come in quantum leaps. You work hard and practice but nothing appears to happen . You are learning and strengthening your brain. Suddenly your game makes a leap of several balls. Was it the new cue you bought or did the practice pay off?

 

[Johnnyt]

I have wrote this on here a few times since I've been a member. Take 20 of the top American players over the age of 30 NOW and ask them how they started and continued up the ladder to the top in pool. Most likely you will here close to the same story from each of them.

They will tell you someone in the family owned a poolroom or there was a pool table at their house or some family members house with very good players around them at a very young age. Most of them saw they could make good money at 12-16 years old and quit school early. They get taken on the road. They were making easy money, in easy games until everyone knew their speed. Then there were no more easy games and it became a 50/50 toss up who would take home the cheese. Enter the stakehorse and it goes down hill from there for most of them. Johnnyt

 

[Nostroke]

100% no doubt

I practiced the guitar for 1 1/2 years diligently- i could make every cord but i never knew when to change them or really how to strum them believe it or not. My friend picked up the guitar, his first instrument except the drums and within 30 days he was far better than me knowing half the cords.

i posted on here a few years back the theory that art and music were skills you were either born with or not. Someone promptly posted an article showing i was 100% wrong. I never believed it but i suppose others did.

 

[Banks]

i posted on here a few years back the theory that art and music were skills you were either born with or not. Someone promptly posted an article showing i was 100% wrong. I never believed it but i suppose others did.

I wonder how much better those players are now - the ones that did believe the article.

 

[JB Cases]

Lots of personal anecdotes. I wonder though how many of you who believe that nature determines success would bristle and be defensive if you were told you will never ever be better than you are right now?

Then you get pissed and prove that statement wrong...and are told the same thing again....

I prefer to optimistically believe in human achievement and lean on history....which shows a steady increase in human performance in all human endeavors.

 

[Nostroke]

I wonder how much better those players are now - the ones that did believe the article.

I dont know but i am glad i didnt waste another 1 1/2 years chasing something that would never happen. None of the guys with my inborn skills ever reached mediocrity, i promise you.

Life is short and you have to realize where your talents lie and concentrate on improving them. Every job i ever had i tailored to my abilities and made my specialties within the job very important and soon those are what the bosses wanted from me and found nearly irreplaceable.

 

[one stroke]

Lots of personal anecdotes. I wonder though how many of you who believe that nature determines success would bristle and be defensive if you were told you will never ever be better than you are right now?

Then you get pissed and prove that statement wrong...and are told the same thing again....

I prefer to optimistically believe in human achievement and lean on history....which shows a steady increase in human performance in all human endeavors.

Anyone who has achieved has also experienced failure and been told they can't do something ,at some point there is a cap ,,, yes as a whole we have progressed , but no matter what century your in the same rules apply ,,
It's not being a pessimist it's understanding reality ,,

1

 

[Nostroke]

Lots of personal anecdotes. I wonder though how many of you who believe that nature determines success would bristle and be defensive if you were told you will never ever be better than you are right now?

Then you get pissed and prove that statement wrong...and are told the same thing again....

I prefer to optimistically believe in human achievement and lean on history....which shows a steady increase in human performance in all human endeavors.

You can always be better than you are right now but you cant be a superstar without certain genes, inborn abilities etc.

If you waste your all your time for a one percent improvement in something you are not made for and ignore where your real abilities lie-where you could excel. you are doing yourself and the world a disservice.

 

[backplaying]

Everyone who dedicates the time - TRULY puts in the time - becomes a grandmaster at chess. You see this is ALWAYS the catch..... people say oh I have been doing this for 30 years and I still can't master it...but when you really look at their life they didn't put 30 years into one thing deeply, more of a up and down relationship.

People who truly FOCUS and intensely practice are rewarded with mastery of the subject. People who don't are rewarded with increased skill and a lot of frustration.

Everyone has a peak they reach and no amount of practice, lessons or anything else will make them better. Equality, which you believe, is impossible, and reality proves it. Natural born talent, will always be the main key to reaching masters level in anything.

 

[JB Cases]

That may be true but everyone's potential is not the same this has been proven countless times ,, yes there are many cases of where talent has been held hostage and potential is never reached and some exceed potential ,, but the truly elite don't come from the average potential person ,,
If fact I am getting a big dose of it right now teaching my youngest daughter to play ,,
My other 2 picked it up fairly easy as also my brothers but she is another matter ,, she can't throw the ball in the ocean ,, clearly not as talented as my other 2 ,,
That's Nature ,,,,


1

Where has it been proven countless times that everyone's potential isn't the same? By everyone we are hopefully referring to physically and mentally able individuals.

I have seen many examples of people proving naysayers wrong and succeeding anyway.

How do measure a person's potential anyway?

Maybe the problem is the teacher in your case.

When I was selling jump cues I had to learn to teach people how to jump. I had to learn to tailor the instruction to the student. I didn't give up on ANYONE even though there were a few people who really had a tough time of it. But all that did was make me figure out more and more ways to teach them so that the end result, proficiency with the jump cue was reached.

I am 100% certain that there are some people on this forum who would have looked at some of the people who were trying to jump and failing and concluded that those people simply didn't have enough talent and would never be able to master that part of the game.

Those people who might have thought that would have been wrong. I have a 100% success rate in teaching people to jump, sometimes even going so far as to completely rebuild their stroke in the process.

Just because some people get there quicker doesn't mean those people are more talented. Sometimes it simply means that they were more prepared for the task at that moment.

For more insight into this and interesting results that are blurring what we think we know about labeled "gifted and talented" students look here, www.khanacademy.com and read about their teaching methods and the results they are getting.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Where has it been proven countless times that everyone's potential isn't the same? By everyone we are hopefully referring to physically and mentally able individuals. ...

There are more than a few examples of unequal potential in "The Sports Gene." The author includes lots of footnotes and references if you want to pursue it further.

The inequality factor is most evident in predominantly physical sports like track and field and basketball and baseball, but I think it is also present in cue sports.

John, I really think you need to read the book before continuing this discussion.

 

[JB Cases]

Everyone has a peak they reach and no amount of practice, lessons or anything else will make them better. Equality, which you believe, is impossible, and reality proves it. Natural born talent, will always be the main key to reaching masters level in anything.

Maybe but that peak is not even ever threatened by most people.

The Chinese world champion hurdler, Liu Xiang, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiang

Was denied training by the Chinese national coach because he was considered to be unfit for hurdling by that coach. The coach declared him without enough talent to be worth the effort.

Liu Xiang went on his own and trained with another coach and surpassed everyone in China and became not only a gold medalist but also a world champion and a super star in China.

So who decides who has "talent" and who does not?

I will agree that humans have physical and even mental limits. I will also agree that humans are all a little different and that those physical differences play a role. So if you want to say that someone born with the right type of muscles gives them an edge in certain activities then I agree. Is that "talent"? I don't know. Obviously the guy who is 4.4 and weighs 80lbs isn't going to be the world's strongest man. But maybe he can be the world's strongest man in his weight class.

In pool it is my opinion that 100% of the people playing today can be better than they are. This includes all the pros. I firmly believe that the skill average can move upward as a group. The gap between amateurs and pros is certainly smaller now than it has ever been at any time in history. This is due to access to knowledge and access to examples and access to decent instruction. What is missing is actual coaching. Coaching is a tiny fraction of the pool world and without it those who have to improve themselves mostly on their own do reach limits and plateaus that they find hard to get past.

You show me a player who is a B player today that you consider hopeless and if that player will put in the time with a good coach for six months I will bet $5000 that he turns into an A+ player. In Oklahoma city they use number ratings. I am an 8. Joey Gray is a 14 or 15 I think. A 10 is considered a pretty good player. I can take any 8 and turn them into a 12 in six months IF that player has the desire to learn, the opportunity to train deeply and the right consistent coaching. I am 100% confident that this is possible.

 

[lost]

There are more than a few examples of unequal potential in "The Sports Gene." The author includes lots of footnotes and references if you want to pursue it further.

The inequality factor is most evident in predominantly physical sports like track and field and basketball and baseball, but I think it is also present in cue sports.

John, I really think you need to read the book before continuing this discussion.

Because there really has been little incentive to play pool besides just having some fun on a night out, a lot of "gifted" people do other things. Reaching their potential playing pool just really wasn't high on their list of things to do.
I've seen that with my own eyes. In my university the golf team could clean up the billiard club players....playing pool. It sure wouldn't have worked the other way around.