Need help from the rules gurus

[Williebetmore]

Our straight pool league needs some help with the rules. If someone commits a second foul in a row (by scratching) giving you ball in hand, what is to prevent you from placing the cue ball in the jaws of one of the corner pockets in the kitchen, lightly touching it, and leaving him in a heck of a bind?

In the past we believed that a legal shot had to leave the kitchen first (I have seen Accu-Stats tapes where Mizerak shoots out of the kitchen, 2 rails back into the kitchen and near the head rail for an intentional foul - it is obvious that the rules then required the cue ball to leave the kitchen first). In the most recent version of the world standardized rules we CANNOT find any requirement for the cue ball to first leave the kitchen. Can anyone tell me where in the rules this is covered (World Standardized or BCA)????? Thanks in advance. Please tell what version of the rules you are citing in case we have a faulty version and to make sure that we are playing by the most recent rules.

 

[jay helfert]

14.1 rules

Strange rules for Straight Pool that you play with. The long used and correct rules for 14.1 have no penalty for two fouls in a row, other than loss of a ball(s). After three fouls in a row, the shooter loses 15 balls and the balls are reracked and he must then break.
There is no "Ball In Hand" rule in Straight Pool. I advise you to obtain a copy of ther BCA rulebook.

Our straight pool league needs some help with the rules. If someone commits a second foul in a row giving you ball in hand, what is to prevent you from placing the cue ball in the jaws of one of the corner pockets in the kitchen, lightly touching it, and leaving him in a heck of a bind?

In the past we believed that a legal shot had to leave the kitchen first (I have seen Accu-Stats tapes where Mizerak shoots out of the kitchen, 2 rails back into the kitchen and near the head rail for an intentional foul - it is obvious that the rules then required the cue ball to leave the kitchen first). In the most recent version of the world standardized rules we CANNOT find any requirement for the cue ball to first leave the kitchen. Can anyone tell me where in the rules this is covered (World Standardized or BCA)????? Thanks in advance. Please tell what version of the rules you are citing in case we have a faulty version and to make sure that we are playing by the most recent rules.

 

[Williebetmore]

Strange rules for Straight Pool that you play with. The long used and correct rules for 14.1 have no penalty for two fouls in a row, other than loss of a ball(s). After three fouls in a row, the shooter loses 15 balls and the balls are reracked and he must then break.
There is no "Ball In Hand" rule in Straight Pool. I advise you to obtain a copy of ther BCA rulebook.

Jay,
I believe you misunderstood, sorry I wasn't more specific. I meant after a scratch where the incoming player has ball in hand. We DO NOT play ball in hand after other types of fouls. I've modified the original post to clarify. Thanks for your input. I enjoy your Accu-Stats commentary.

 

[Wally in Cincy]

Our straight pool league needs some help with the rules. If someone commits a second foul in a row giving you ball in hand, .

I assume you mean "scratch" rather than "foul"

re: your question, I believe the cb has to leave the kitchen for it to be a legal shot.

Tom in Cincy investigated this thoroughly a few years ago. He would have the definitive answer.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Our straight pool league needs some help with the rules. If someone commits a second foul in a row (by scratching) giving you ball in hand, what is to prevent you from placing the cue ball in the jaws of one of the corner pockets in the kitchen, lightly touching it, and leaving him in a heck of a bind?

In the past we believed that a legal shot had to leave the kitchen first (I have seen Accu-Stats tapes where Mizerak shoots out of the kitchen, 2 rails back into the kitchen and near the head rail for an intentional foul - it is obvious that the rules then required the cue ball to leave the kitchen first). In the most recent version of the world standardized rules we CANNOT find any requirement for the cue ball to first leave the kitchen. Can anyone tell me where in the rules this is covered (World Standardized or BCA)????? Thanks in advance. Please tell what version of the rules you are citing in case we have a faulty version and to make sure that we are playing by the most recent rules.

These are the current BCA rules. You can find it under General Rules of Pocket Billiards (not under 14.1 Continuous). From my understanding, this rule is not new:

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/

3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player’s scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the op-posing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to rule 2.21) When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

 

[Williebetmore]

These are the current BCA rules. You can find it under General Rules of Pocket Billiards (not under 14.1 Continuous). From my understanding, this rule is not new:

http://www.bca-pool.com/play/

3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player’s scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the op-posing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to rule 2.21) When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

Jude,
Many thanks, it was exactly what I needed.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,
Many thanks, it was exactly what I needed.

Never a problem. I won't mention any names (Two words, first word begins with B) but some magazines have even gotten this rule wrong.

 

[ScottR]

Never a problem. I won't mention any names (Two words, first word begins with B) but some magazines have even gotten this rule wrong.

Just a clarification, Jude.....in his original situation, where the opponent has two fouls, why couldn't the incoming player place the ball in the jaws as Willie suggested, touch it with his/her cue tip after setting up to stroke it and take an intentional foul because of the illegal shot? Would that be any different, foul-wise, than shooting the cue-ball into a pocket down-table for a scratch/foul?

Thanks.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Just a clarification, Jude.....in his original situation, where the opponent has two fouls, why couldn't the incoming player place the ball in the jaws as Willie suggested, touch it with his/her cue tip after setting up to stroke it and take an intentional foul because of the illegal shot? Would that be any different, foul-wise, than shooting the cue-ball into a pocket down-table for a scratch/foul?

Thanks.

Because the incoming player would get ball-in-hand behind the head-string. Basically, that cue-ball ain't gonna stay there. You can't do that.

 

[ScottR]

Because the incoming player would get ball-in-hand behind the head-string. Basically, that cue-ball ain't gonna stay there. You can't do that.

You know, if I'd read the part of the rule you highlighted, I wouldn't have asked my (now) dumb question.

Thanks for not sticking it to me.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Just a clarification, Jude.....in his original situation, where the opponent has two fouls, why couldn't the incoming player place the ball in the jaws as Willie suggested, touch it with his/her cue tip after setting up to stroke it and take an intentional foul because of the illegal shot? Would that be any different, foul-wise, than shooting the cue-ball into a pocket down-table for a scratch/foul?

Thanks.

Oops, this rule is even better:

3.39 PLAYING FROM BEHIND THE STRING
When a player has the cue ball in hand behind the head string (in the kitchen), he must drive the cue ball to a point across the head string before it contacts either a cushion, an object ball, or returns to the kitchen. Failure to do so is a foul if a referee is presiding over a match. If no referee, the opponent has the option to call it either a foul or to require the offending player to replay the shot again with the balls restored to their positions prior to the shot (and with no foul penalty imposed). Exception: if an object ball lies on or outside the head string (and is thus playable) but so close that the cue ball contacts it before the cue ball is out of the kitchen, the ball can be legally played, and will be considered to have crossed the head string. If, with cue ball in hand behind the headstring and while the shooter is attempting a legitimate shot, the cue ball accidentally hits a ball behind the head string, and the cue ball crosses the line, it is a foul. If with cue ball in hand behind the head string, the shooter causes the cue ball to hit an object ball accidentally, and the cue ball does not cross the headstring, the following applies: the incoming player has the option of calling a foul and having cue ball in hand, or having the balls returned to their original position, and having the offending player replay the shot. If a player under the same conditions intentionally causes the cue ball to contact an object ball behind the headstring, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

[ScottR]

Oops, this rule is even better:

3.39 PLAYING FROM BEHIND THE STRING
When a player has the cue ball in hand behind the head string (in the kitchen), he must drive the cue ball to a point across the head string . . . . . .it is unsportsmanlike conduct.

What? Just kidding. Thanks again.

 

[sjm]

Our straight pool league needs some help with the rules. If someone commits a second foul in a row (by scratching) giving you ball in hand, what is to prevent you from placing the cue ball in the jaws of one of the corner pockets in the kitchen, lightly touching it, and leaving him in a heck of a bind?

In the past we believed that a legal shot had to leave the kitchen first (I have seen Accu-Stats tapes where Mizerak shoots out of the kitchen, 2 rails back into the kitchen and near the head rail for an intentional foul - it is obvious that the rules then required the cue ball to leave the kitchen first). In the most recent version of the world standardized rules we CANNOT find any requirement for the cue ball to first leave the kitchen. Can anyone tell me where in the rules this is covered (World Standardized or BCA)????? Thanks in advance. Please tell what version of the rules you are citing in case we have a faulty version and to make sure that we are playing by the most recent rules.

A player having ball in hand after opponent scratches in a pocket must shoot beyond the headstring to have played a legal shot. The best known example of a shot that's not legal in 14.1 is an illegal break. In straight pool, if your opponent plays an illegal shot, the appropriate penalty is assessed and you have the option to insist that the shot be repeated until played legally. You may not find this in the rules, but I've been present when an intepretation of this rule was requested and the ruling was that this was not legal. I doubt any referee would deem this tactic is a legal shot.

There are other situations in straight pool where referee judgment is involved, even though the situations may not be found in the rules. I recall that CueBall Kelly, the referee extraordinaire of yesteryear had a pretty tough call to make in one of Irving Crane's matches at the 1981 World Straight Pool Cahmpionships. Irving's opponent was guilty of a double hit, which under the rules would call for a one point foul. However, the result of this particular double hit was that a combo that had been "dead" was moved in a way that made it no longer possible to make. Irvng was visibly upset, and told me that Kelly, as referee, was empowered to call a sixteen point foul in this situation if he thought it appropriate. Kelly, who may or may not have noticed the "dead" combo, did not make that judgment, and assessed only a one point foul. Even though he won the match, Irving was still a little upset about that call even when the match all over.

 

[Williebetmore]

Jude and SJM (or perhaps I should address this to the NYC pool mafia),
HELP!!! My league director is not convinced. He feels that the old World Rules specifically required driving the cueball out of the kitchen with ball in hand; the same section of the new rules does not mention this. He believes that this means the "ole jaw lock" shot (hand placing the ball in the jaws of the pocket and lightly touching it with the tip of the cue) should be allowed. He says that there is a section that describes "deliberate fouls" (those fouls that are assessed the 15 ball penalty or allow opponent to accept the table as is) - and that the section does not mention driving the ball out of the kitchen.

Of interest it also does not mention tapping the cue ball with the ferrule (in the Reyes-West Accu-Stats tape, Reyes is penalized 15 balls and the balls are re-racked for him to break when he taps the cue ball with his ferrule). Is this going to be allowed??? Where can I get a set of rules? Is there a place (as in the golf rules) where there is discussion of rules interpretations that we could access??? Thanks again

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude and SJM (or perhaps I should address this to the NYC pool mafia),
HELP!!! My league director is not convinced. He feels that the old World Rules specifically required driving the cueball out of the kitchen with ball in hand; the same section of the new rules does not mention this. He believes that this means the "ole jaw lock" shot (hand placing the ball in the jaws of the pocket and lightly touching it with the tip of the cue) should be allowed. He says that there is a section that describes "deliberate fouls" (those fouls that are assessed the 15 ball penalty or allow opponent to accept the table as is) - and that the section does not mention driving the ball out of the kitchen.

Of interest it also does not mention tapping the cue ball with the ferrule (in the Reyes-West Accu-Stats tape, Reyes is penalized 15 balls and the balls are re-racked for him to break when he taps the cue ball with his ferrule). Is this going to be allowed??? Where can I get a set of rules? Is there a place (as in the golf rules) where there is discussion of rules interpretations that we could access??? Thanks again

There's a link in my first reply. Go to www.bca-pool.com From there, you should click "Play" and then "Rules". Print out the General Rules for Pocket Billiards. If he's a league director, he should know what the general rules FOR ALL GAMES are.

You can also find these rules in any BCA Rule Book under the "General Rules" section. The rule numbers that are outlined in my posts (3.1 & 3.39) should help you find it online and in the book.

 

[Williebetmore]

There's a link in my first reply. Go to www.bca-pool.com From there, you should click "Play" and then "Rules". Print out the General Rules for Pocket Billiards. If he's a league director, he should know what the general rules FOR ALL GAMES are.

You can also find these rules in any BCA Rule Book under the "General Rules" section. The rule numbers that are outlined in my posts (3.1 & 3.39) should help you find it online and in the book.

Jude,
So you are seriously suggesting I actually read the rules???? I was hoping to get some quick answers (working the Friday morning til Monday evening shift), but I've only succeeded in getting a splitting headache. These rules are PONDEROUS. I guess I'll actually have to set aside some time and study them. I'm very fearful of having the "ole jaw lock" foul played on me the next time I get on 2 fouls, I need some convincing evidence.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,
So you are seriously suggesting I actually read the rules???? I was hoping to get some quick answers (working the Friday morning til Monday evening shift), but I've only succeeded in getting a splitting headache. These rules are PONDEROUS. I guess I'll actually have to set aside some time and study them. I'm very fearful of having the "ole jaw lock" foul played on me the next time I get on 2 fouls, I need some convincing evidence.

LOL, Willie I cannot stress how important it is to know the rules as a referee would. I can tell you countless stories of people who came up with pretty ingenious stuff (or so they thought). To have a solid sense of how the rule book is set-up and a decent knowledge of what's in there will only serve to your advantage.

A good example, in another thread, someone mentioned how they used the triangle to help them form a bridge when performing a jumpshot. Anyone who's read the rule about "Improper use of equipment" would have quickly recognized this as illegal. There's even a limit to the number of mechanical bridges one could use (2). With ball-in-hand, you can use the cue-ball to judge whether a ball passes but you cannot use an object ball for the same purpose.

It really is for your protection. Not only can you score some wins off people who make stupid errors, it educates you so that you don't lose any because of them.