An Update CueMaker Tree
Need Help With Harvey Martin/ Bert Schrager -Apprentice/Cuemaker Tree
- Thread starter billiardshot
- Start date
You can put down Jimmy Wu (sp?) as an apprentice under Bert Schrager. Also a good player out of LA.
Thank Demonho. Does anyone know if this the correct spelling Jimmy Wu?
Ken "Stew" Mortson
As Rich mentioned in an earlier post, Ken "Stew" Mortson has been to the Illinois Billiard Club twice in the last 3 months or so. A new member who is a close friend brought Him. Stew even brought a bunch of his beautiful cues and at least one Harvey Martin for us to look at.
I alerted Stew's friend to this post to see if Stew could shed any light on some of the matters being discussed. Following is his response:
From Stew Mortson – 5/11/09
“In regards to the posting on AZ Billiards, the Harvey Martin apprentice tree. There are a few facts that are incorrect.
First, Harvey Martin never, ever stood shoulder-to-shoulder with anyone to teach them his methods and processes. Tad and Bert are 'loyal disciples' of Harvey, but no one can ever reproduce Harvey's techniques. Harvey Martin never had an apprentice. Tad bought Harvey's shop when he died to include everything. Allen Gilbert never got the information, either.
In 1989, Schrager had an order from the Palmer 1972 catalog (back page.) I inlayed 6 cues ea for a total of 36 cues including ebony with abalone. Bert was worried we couldn't get the order finished -Dale Hoke was running the shop, and Bert was going in for open heart surgery. Kersenbrock was 'freelancing,' and was brought in to help finish the 36 cue order. David wound up "being a loss" because he couldn't work at all and was fired by Pat Schrager approximately 6 weeks after he started.
David Kersenbrock was making cues by his own admission in 1971-72. He adapted to use a style that was similar to Harvey Martin – the 3/8x11 brass machine screw and the double-angle taper. Harvey decided to use that screw type because that type of thread doesn't tear away the wood in the shaft like a 3/8x10 does. It is built to last.
David was no more an apprentice of Bert Schrager than Bert was of Harvey. They crossed paths momentarily. David made cues by himself in his parents back yard (called the “Caliente” period) where he built his own adobe hut to work in, was backed by Don Lee at one point, made cues in Vegas with Jerry and Laurie, and 'freelanced' before he got to Schrager's shop.
Dale Hoke was making cues in various places before he arrived at Schrager's and has a mind for designing inlay patterns for cues that is second to none. His machining skills allowed him to make cues before, during, and after Schrager that have a high level of playability.”
Ken 'Stew' Mortson
As Rich mentioned in an earlier post, Ken "Stew" Mortson has been to the Illinois Billiard Club twice in the last 3 months or so. A new member who is a close friend brought Him. Stew even brought a bunch of his beautiful cues and at least one Harvey Martin for us to look at.
I alerted Stew's friend to this post to see if Stew could shed any light on some of the matters being discussed. Following is his response:
From Stew Mortson – 5/11/09
“In regards to the posting on AZ Billiards, the Harvey Martin apprentice tree. There are a few facts that are incorrect.
First, Harvey Martin never, ever stood shoulder-to-shoulder with anyone to teach them his methods and processes. Tad and Bert are 'loyal disciples' of Harvey, but no one can ever reproduce Harvey's techniques. Harvey Martin never had an apprentice. Tad bought Harvey's shop when he died to include everything. Allen Gilbert never got the information, either.
In 1989, Schrager had an order from the Palmer 1972 catalog (back page.) I inlayed 6 cues ea for a total of 36 cues including ebony with abalone. Bert was worried we couldn't get the order finished -Dale Hoke was running the shop, and Bert was going in for open heart surgery. Kersenbrock was 'freelancing,' and was brought in to help finish the 36 cue order. David wound up "being a loss" because he couldn't work at all and was fired by Pat Schrager approximately 6 weeks after he started.
David Kersenbrock was making cues by his own admission in 1971-72. He adapted to use a style that was similar to Harvey Martin – the 3/8x11 brass machine screw and the double-angle taper. Harvey decided to use that screw type because that type of thread doesn't tear away the wood in the shaft like a 3/8x10 does. It is built to last.
David was no more an apprentice of Bert Schrager than Bert was of Harvey. They crossed paths momentarily. David made cues by himself in his parents back yard (called the “Caliente” period) where he built his own adobe hut to work in, was backed by Don Lee at one point, made cues in Vegas with Jerry and Laurie, and 'freelanced' before he got to Schrager's shop.
Dale Hoke was making cues in various places before he arrived at Schrager's and has a mind for designing inlay patterns for cues that is second to none. His machining skills allowed him to make cues before, during, and after Schrager that have a high level of playability.”
Ken 'Stew' Mortson
Great info!! Keep it coming 
cuemaker tree
I have been a close friend to Bert & Pat Schrager since 1975. Sometime back in the early 80's I was introduced to Harry Sims (former US National 3 Cushion Champion) who was working in Bert Schrager's shop making sneaky petes. Shortly after that Harry came to San Jose, CA and was working the counter at the original California Billiards. Harry continued to make basic cues in a small workshop at the back of the poolroom.
I do recall David Kersenbrock at Bert's shop for a short period of time.
According to Bert, Kersenbrock was passing through and had no place to stay. Bert offered him to stay in a trailer that was parked behind the shop and to help him with cuemaking. Bert warned David not to mess with the settings on his equipment. David did not listen and Bert told David to move on. I also recall Jeff Carter helping out making sneaky petes at one time. Tim Padgett learned his cuemaking skills from Bert. Bert wanted to offer him a partnership in the business. Tim decided to start his own shop much to the dismay of Bert.
Bert Schrager should be in the Hall of Fame, as he helped so many aspiring cuemakers along the way. He even offered to teach me, but being a cuemaker was not my passion.
I have been a close friend to Bert & Pat Schrager since 1975. Sometime back in the early 80's I was introduced to Harry Sims (former US National 3 Cushion Champion) who was working in Bert Schrager's shop making sneaky petes. Shortly after that Harry came to San Jose, CA and was working the counter at the original California Billiards. Harry continued to make basic cues in a small workshop at the back of the poolroom.
I do recall David Kersenbrock at Bert's shop for a short period of time.
According to Bert, Kersenbrock was passing through and had no place to stay. Bert offered him to stay in a trailer that was parked behind the shop and to help him with cuemaking. Bert warned David not to mess with the settings on his equipment. David did not listen and Bert told David to move on. I also recall Jeff Carter helping out making sneaky petes at one time. Tim Padgett learned his cuemaking skills from Bert. Bert wanted to offer him a partnership in the business. Tim decided to start his own shop much to the dismay of Bert.
Bert Schrager should be in the Hall of Fame, as he helped so many aspiring cuemakers along the way. He even offered to teach me, but being a cuemaker was not my passion.
Dennis, Thank for your and Stew input. As I stated in this post earlier, there are incorrect and also this a work in progress. The tree will be broken down to inspiration/ influence by, work with, etc.
Eric, Thank for the added information about Harry Sims. I hope we can get more information. Because I believe there still more surprise to be found.
Newness Cuemaker Tree
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I've Got a Few More...
I just hung up w/Pat (Bert's wife) and we have a few more names to add, but first...
Hi Eric, it's me, Dave Gross. If you ever want to see a silky smooth stroke, watch Eric play. Nice to see you post in this thread.
What Eric said about Harvey Martin is true, he never "taught" Bert cue building. But he did used to sit in a high stool in Bert's shop watching him works and would make comments like "that cue sounds funny", then Bert would throw it in the trash. They were pretty good friends that shared the love of cues building. Harvey never offered Bert direct information until his wife, Ruby died. According to Pat, after that Harvey & Bert went for a drive and stopped somewhere private and Harvey talked for 6-7 hours about cues, woods, techniques, where he has traveled. Bert wished he had done that 25 years earlier. I wish I were a fly on the wall.
Pat also confirmed what Eric said about DPK and then giggled.
Oh, and before I forget, it is Mortenson according to Pat.
Ok, here are a few new names:
1) Clint Swalley. Clint worked with Bert in the early years and after learning the pantograph, he was the one that eventually taught Pat.
2) Tom O'Connor. Tom worked with Bert 25-30 years ago for 3-6 months. He is the one that bought all of Bert’s equipment and raw materials in 2005 when Bert was forced to retire due to health reasons.
3) Reimon Sawyaguchi (please forgive the spelling). Reimon is from Japan and lived and apprenticed under Bert for about 6 mos. I understand he owns a room in Japan and continues to make cues...I think.
Bert & Pat say hi to all and is enjoying thinking about all the folks they have met and worked with. Pat came up with a few other names but they were already on the list.
Dave
I just hung up w/Pat (Bert's wife) and we have a few more names to add, but first...
Hi Eric, it's me, Dave Gross. If you ever want to see a silky smooth stroke, watch Eric play. Nice to see you post in this thread.
What Eric said about Harvey Martin is true, he never "taught" Bert cue building. But he did used to sit in a high stool in Bert's shop watching him works and would make comments like "that cue sounds funny", then Bert would throw it in the trash. They were pretty good friends that shared the love of cues building. Harvey never offered Bert direct information until his wife, Ruby died. According to Pat, after that Harvey & Bert went for a drive and stopped somewhere private and Harvey talked for 6-7 hours about cues, woods, techniques, where he has traveled. Bert wished he had done that 25 years earlier
. I wish I were a fly on the wall. Pat also confirmed what Eric said about DPK and then giggled.
Oh, and before I forget, it is Mortenson according to Pat.
Ok, here are a few new names:
1) Clint Swalley. Clint worked with Bert in the early years and after learning the pantograph, he was the one that eventually taught Pat.
2) Tom O'Connor. Tom worked with Bert 25-30 years ago for 3-6 months. He is the one that bought all of Bert’s equipment and raw materials in 2005 when Bert was forced to retire due to health reasons.
3) Reimon Sawyaguchi (please forgive the spelling). Reimon is from Japan and lived and apprenticed under Bert for about 6 mos. I understand he owns a room in Japan and continues to make cues...I think.
Bert & Pat say hi to all and is enjoying thinking about all the folks they have met and worked with. Pat came up with a few other names but they were already on the list.
Dave
Thank Dave, will add names later. I wonder if Bert and Pat got a chance to talk with Dieckman when he was in California2008/2009.
How about Mentorship by: Martin???? Instead of apprentice what did Bert learn from Herman Rambow?? Or did he??
Once Again Thank soooooooo much, Dave!!!!
Maybe The word Today would be Mentor or Train By, instead of apprentice?
How about Mentorship by: Martin???? Instead of apprentice what did Bert learn from Herman Rambow?? Or did he??
Once Again Thank soooooooo much, Dave!!!!
Maybe The word Today would be Mentor or Train By, instead of apprentice?
I don't know about the Rambow connection, if any. I emailed them to see what they say about it. I do know that Bert is one of the few cuemakers ever to be invited to Gus Szamboti's shop in his home. He has talked of that often and cherishes the memory and the great compliment bestowed upon him by Gus. They remained friends till he died. I wouldn't add that to your list, they were just friends and had mutual respect for each other.
Dave
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Dave, as before I will honor that request not to add Gus to Bert list, but I probably will it and when I get to the influenced section.
Newness updated
Newness updated
Cranegod1, Thank! Do you know Dunham first name?
This is going to sound corny but this a great thing to do before all the memories get too fuzzy.
Reminds me of friends and family showing old pictures and telling who is who in each one, and I am the a$$ that keeps saying "write it on the back of the picture so it wont get lost."
I am sorry to say too much probably has been lost, but its important to get all you can get as soon as possible. The other thing is the group here adding and correcting, its just great.
Ken
Reminds me of friends and family showing old pictures and telling who is who in each one, and I am the a$$ that keeps saying "write it on the back of the picture so it wont get lost."
I am sorry to say too much probably has been lost, but its important to get all you can get as soon as possible. The other thing is the group here adding and correcting, its just great.
Ken
I don't believe Ray apprenticed with anyone. He started out repairing cues and then graduated to making them. He did have many conversations with Herman Rambow and was influenced by him but never worked in his shop. Ray didn't start doing doing repairs until after Rambow died.
The only connection I can think of is that Stew Mortson, who had previously worked for Schrager, worked in Ray's shop beginning in the early 90's (uncertain about date) and produced some very fancy inlay work on custom Schulers.
It's Mortson according to Mortson.
This might add to the confusion. Then who submitted this information to Blue Book of Pool Cue. I thought the Cuemaker themselves did? Here a tie to Ray Schuler.
