Need to be a Pro to Teach Pool?

Pinocchio said:
Of the top 10 players in the world how many would you think have spent 2 weeks with a pool instructor? My guess would be a big fat zero.

Pinocchio
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I think you would be very surprised to know how many pros actually go to pool schools for help with their game. I could name several, but out of respect for their privacy, won't. I know one top pro who mentioned something about taking lessons from a particular instructor. Shortly after, another pro and serious competator with this player, signed up for the same class. I know another pro who had an instructor flown in to work with the player on a regular basis.

The best players are the ones who know they can always get better. They seek help and knowledge from many different sources. That is how they stay on top. When you stop learning, you stop improving. The good players know that. The rest think they already know it, or can do it on their own. They actually allow their ego to prevent them from admitting they might need some help to get better. We don't know what we don't know! Personally, I want to find out what I don't know, so I can continue to grow. Some are content to remain at the level where they are. Others are driven to get better. One group thinks instruction is a waste. The other group just keeps getting better.
Steve
 
Pinocchio said:
Of the top 10 players in the world how many would you think have spent 2 weeks with a pool instructor? My guess would be a big fat zero. I said instruction is fine but I would think most champions are self-made. They made pool their life I even heard of one player who made a table his bed his name is Efren. I meet David Howard at approx. 14 yrs old same with Shannon Daulton an buy the time the were both 16 yrs they both could beat some of the players on tour. I never knew either to have any pool teacher. Do you think race car drivers like Jeff Gordon went to go-cart school. My point is dedication an hard work makes pool champions not pool teachers no disrespect intented. A little instruction is fine.


Pinocchio
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The longer you don't respond to your post, the longer your nose gets:) Why are you not responding anymore. We all here have our opinoins stepped on, its no different than missing a shot, we learn and get better, a pool players demise, we commit, we miss we learn, we are better for it, those that don't learn stay the same, sounds like a lesson eh?
 
JPB answered the question in 7 words "you have to know how to teach". Being a profession player does not guarantee this. If you cannot convey instruction in such a manner that allows the student to grasp and retain so as to put the acquired knowledge into practical application, well then, y'all jest be tee teeing in the wind.

Later, Pel
 
There are many aspects to being a successful coach and....

Different athletes / players require different things from a coach.

There are some things that may be known by a pro or very high level player / competitor that can come in very useful for instructing, especially for certain players who need instruction in those areas.

But certainly just being a pro player doesn't make one a great coach.

I think a successful player should seek out a variety of information and opinions and learn to mostly instruct themselves. On the way to that stage, hopefully the coaching and opinions they receive will be mostly useful.

In my opinion, a very good coach that can take a player to an elite level in any sport is quite rare. Those that can, have nearly always been there and done that, or been around those who have, often.

But many of those who have been there and done that are just not suited to coaching.

Many coaches can effectively train beginners up to an intermediate level.

Most often, what makes a player or athlete successful, is the fire that burns inside them. That fire will direct them toward the path of success.

Just a few observations from my 33 years in sports (much of which had coaching) and 15+ years of coaching in various sports,
Colin
 
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I think of it simply like this: In school you can only learn what your teacher knows already.You can only get as good as the person who is training you.

If your teacher is great...he can lead you to greatness
 
Jeff said:
Reading another thread made me think about this.

Do you think for someone to teach billiards, they need to be a Pro, been a Pro, or at least be close to the level of a Pro player?
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Another thread that has been done before, but a good topic nonetheless. No, a good instructor does not need to be a pro or close. They have to be compentent and understand the game, but that is all. They only have to be good enough to demostrate what they want done. They don't have to be good enough to do it in match situations or be able to run rack. They only have to be able to demonstrate one shot at a time.
Other sports do not adhere to this. Look at tennis, golf, basketball, boxing, just to name a few.

Look at Basketball in particular, although there are many top coaches who began coaching after great careers as players there are just as many who probably never played past college or even high school.
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Basketball is a good example as a matter of fact. You have to go no further than the glory years of the celtics. Red Auerbach was arguably the best coach of all time and he never played beyond college (of course there was nothing beyond college when he played). Of his proteges who were successful as coaches. Tom "Tommy Gun" Heinsohn was moderately successful, Satch Sanders did alright, Danny Ainge did alright, Bill Russell (a very intelligent guy) did alright as player coach of the celtics but failed as an independent coach, and Bob Cousy who never ceased innovating as a player was an absolutely horrendous coach (good color guy on broadcasts though). Great players often times get frustrated as coaches when the people they're coaching can't do what they do so easily, they just can't deal with the shortcomings of normal people.
 
catscradle said:
Another thread that has been done before, but a good topic nonetheless. No, a good instructor does not need to be a pro or close. They have to be compentent and understand the game, but that is all. They only have to be good enough to demostrate what they want done. They don't have to be good enough to do it in match situations or be able to run rack. They only have to be able to demonstrate one shot at a time.

Basketball is a good example as a matter of fact. You have to go no further than the glory years of the celtics. Red Auerbach was arguably the best coach of all time and he never played beyond college (of course there was nothing beyond college when he played). Of his proteges who were successful as coaches. Tom "Tommy Gun" Heinsohn was moderately successful, Satch Sanders did alright, Danny Ainge did alright, Bill Russell (a very intelligent guy) did alright as player coach of the celtics but failed as an independent coach, and Bob Cousy who never ceased innovating as a player was an absolutely horrendous coach (good color guy on broadcasts though). Great players often times get frustrated as coaches when the people they're coaching can't do what they do so easily, they just can't deal with the shortcomings of normal people.
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Sounds like Michael Jordan & Larry Bird, coaching is a different animal.
 
angebones said:
I think of it simply like this: In school you can only learn what your teacher knows already.You can only get as good as the person who is training you.

If your teacher is great...he can lead you to greatness
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If this were true the country would be in serious trouble. At any good school many or most of the kids are smarter than the teachers. They are ignorant of a given subject, but it isn't like they can never go beyond the teacher. You sometimes see areas where the kids can outthink the teacher and understand something better. Say a class has to read a given book, before reading it the kid was ignorant. But after reading it a smart kid may have a better understanding of some point of the book than a teacher who just isn't that bright. And sometimes the kids just learn fast and move on. I am not a math guy, but you see this with the good math people sometimes. They show up at college able to do graduate level stuff sometimes. Their high school offered AP calculus but they can do stuff way beyond that. Their perfect SATs and ability to do stuff their high school math teacher didn't do in college show they aren't limited by the teacher necessarily. But there is a difference in ability, the guy great at math might have a talent for it and an IQ of 160. The math teacher didn't. So should the kid have taken high school math? I think so.
 
Colin Colenso said:
There are many aspects to being a successful coach and....

Different athletes / players require different things from a coach.

There are some things that may be known by a pro or very high level player / competitor that can come in very useful for instructing, especially for certain players who need instruction in those areas.

But certainly just being a pro player doesn't make one a great coach.

I think a successful player should seek out a variety of information and opinions and learn to mostly instruct themselves. On the way to that stage, hopefully the coaching and opinions they receive will be mostly useful.

In my opinion, a very good coach that can take a player to an elite level in any sport is quite rare. Those that can, have nearly always been there and done that, or been around those who have, often.

But many of those who have been there and done that are just not suited to coaching.

Many coaches can effectively train beginners up to an intermediate level.

Most often, what makes a player or athlete successful, is the fire that burns inside them. That fire will direct them toward the path of success.

Just a few observations from my 33 years in sports (much of which had coaching) and 15+ years of coaching in various sports,
Colin
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Colin,
I like your post out of all of them so far. I think many of the posters here are thinking that to be a successful coach, you must teach your student into an elite level. This is my opinion: I am not a very good pool shooter. Physical abilities restrict my shooting. I have a fair amount of knowledge of the game. I have good communication skills. I am patient. Can I teach? Yes, I believe I can (and have). I cannot make someone a world champion pool player. I CAN take a beginner who knows nothing about the game and teach them good fundamentals. I can give pointers on how to improve different shots (cut, bank, combo, throw, etc.). I have taught my wife to become a better player. I am in the process of teaching my god-daughter how to play the game. I will be showing my grandkids the ropes in a few years. I cannot make anyone great. They will have to do that on their own with many dedicated hours of practice and a higher level of instruction (if they have all the other necessary tools).

I am also not a very good bowler, but I could give a newbie enough pointers to at least get them started in the right direction.

I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, and I have no teaching degree, but I bet I could get by in an elementary school arithmetic class. I am darn good at math/arithmetic. I have a good ability in working with children and communicating with them. I couldn't solve an algebra or calculus problem to save my life, but that don't mean I couldn't share my knowledge of math/arithmetic with others who are wanting/needing to learn it.

What I am trying to get across here is that a person does NOT have to be some kind of an expert pool player to teach pool. They DO need a certain amount of knowledge in fundamentals and basic shot making. Keep in mind, I am not talking about turning out pros, I'm talking about getting someone started in the right direction, similar to an elementary school teacher. You start with arithmetic and let 'em work their way up to calculus over the years. I can do that, and I bet a very large percentage of people on this board could also. Just my $.02.

Maniac
 
sjm said:
Here's a post I made a long time on this subject that offers my point of view:
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Excellent post SJM, the only thing I would add is that this forumla doesn't take into account inaccurate or bad instructions a low k might pass on? I can think of countless bad instructions that could be very hard to reverse if a player adopts them early enough. May I suggest...

P = (K * C) - (BS * C)

:confused:
 
My first experience teaching was at Chelsea billiards during the 90's where they had a pool-school twice a week. All of us were amateur-instructors and I was the only one that competed with any frequency. It was there that I met Jennifer Barretta who took regular lessons with one of the other instructors there. Honestly, her mechanics today are not all that different from what they were then. I'm sure she still credits his teachings.

Now, that isn't to say that everything she learned was in that class. On the contrary, she took lessons all over the place (SJM and Tony Robles being the most notable ones). She was very aware of the class' limitations and once she was ready, she moved on. If you want to learn how to tread-water, you don't need the coaching of an Olympic swimmer. However, if you later want to become an Olympian, you might want to consider their services.

I know SJM started off the responses by showing a formula about knowledge and ability to convey that knowledge. That formula could not be more true but bear in mind, this is coming from one of New York City's more knowledgeable players. SJM can refer to Rempe, Mizerak, Sigel, Macula, Nagy and a plethora of others (I haven't even mentioned current players). He spent a good deal of the 80s with many of these players. He KNEW them. I can honestly say, I cannot go an hour playing SJM without seeing a shot I never considered. I frequently will incorporate a new shot into my arsenal every time we match-up, no matter what the outcome of the set. You might classify him as being an "amateur-instructor" but understand, he is the elite of this classification. There are a lot of professionals who have had quite a bit of success who do not possess anywhere near as much knowledge as he has.
 
Not that im so great player..i can hold my own..but imo evey person i play is a teacher. They will teach me what not to do, just by watching them or what to do. I take away something from every game i play. Even when im goofing off with some players that i know i can beat the breaks off of.. i still learn how quickly i can cut off the goofing and get serious. Trains me how to dive inside myself and pull out my best game when i want to . Also i have a coach named Bernnie Kirby who is not a pro but has 30+ years playing pool. You dont play that long and not learn anything..so yeah you can learn from anyone..You just have to be smart enough to figue out what to learn and from whom IMO
 
Not hardly..

I would say knowledge and experience can make better teachers then skill level, although I would not walk away from a pro's lesson. They usually have both (knowledge and ability), some of them just can't convey it so that you can comprehend it.
 
Experience

See a lot of negative comments about Billiard Trainers. What I haven't seen much of is comments from people who have had professional instruction and came away disappointed. What gives?
 
Jeff said:
...
Do you think for someone to teach billiards, they need to be a Pro, been a Pro, or at least be close to the level of a Pro player?...
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I've seen several pro players who were very bad instructors. They did not have the teaching experience or techniques to help the typical student.

The typical student needs a lot of work on fundamentals. Things like bringing the arm through more or less staight or at least consistently, not jumping up in the middle of the shot, hitting the ball low for draw and lower for more draw, and even how to chalk right. They don't need to learn (at their present level) jump shots, force draw shots, or even break shots. Not all instructors are willing to go through the first steps first.

I've also seen a few pro players with totally bizarre notions of what the balls do, and they try to teach this to students. On the other hand, there are some instructors with the same problem.
 
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