New cue Al Baytista 8 pointer

[CMD]

I could have bought 2 sugartrees for what I paid for my scruggs. 3 for what I've been offered to sell it.

Not my Sugartree... :wink:


As Guycrunch said, your comparison is way off base. Jay Flowers passed away in 2005. He influenced many case makers including Jack Justis and John Barton. If you do a little research, you can find out a lot. John Barton's site has a lot of good information. I am by no means a case expert...

 

[trob]

Not my Sugartree... :wink:


As Guycrunch said, your comparison is way off base. Jay Flowers passed away in 2005. He influenced many case makers including Jack Justis and John Barton. If you do a little research, you can find out a lot. John Barton's site has a lot of good information. I am by no means a case expert...

Your cue does looks beautiful. Understand I'm not saying my Scruggs hits better then your sugartree. That's silly because everyone has there own taste in looks and playability. Hell when I started playing 25 years ago everyone thought meuccis were gods gift to pool lol I thought they played like shit and I bought a mecdermott then joss and finally schonn. My only opinion if you think you have something unique then protect it legally because in today's world it will be stollen and reproduced. That's a guarantee.

I'll have to look up the info on justis west. I just bought my first justis and love it but thier seems to be some history there I need to learn about.

 

[CMD]

Your cue does looks beautiful. Understand I'm not saying my Scruggs hits better then your sugartree. That's silly because everyone has there own taste in looks and playability. Hell when I started playing 25 years ago everyone thought meuccis were gods gift to pool lol I thought they played like shit and I bought a mecdermott then joss and finally schonn. My only opinion if you think you have something unique then protect it legally because in today's world it will be stollen and reproduced. That's a guarantee.

Of course, it was more of a joke. My point was there are some expensive Sugartrees out there.

The argument (discussion) is not about legality. It is more of a moral compass amongst cuemakers/artists or whatever. Can you imagine coming up witha signature style of cue just to have someone make a clone of it? All your hard work. All of your passion. Disrepected in a moment for someone to capitalize on "your" design just to make a dollar.

I have no idea what you do, but can you at least imagine that scenario in some aspect of your life? Cue makers are not in it for the money. It is a passion for them. Yes, some make a living but do you think it is an easy way to make money? There are so many cue makers out there. And new ones starting every day. The desire is to separate yourself from all of the others.

This is not about a simple four point, four veneer cue. It is about a certain uniqueness in style and design. Not just bits and pieces but the sum of that total.



Chris

 

[Guerra Cues]

Yea I'm sure. Lol I'll put the hit of my scruggs over anything out there. I could have bought 2 sugartrees for what I paid for my scruggs. 3 for what I've been offered to sell it. No offense to sugartree I'm sure he makes a great hitting cue. I guess since your a wanna be cue maker your now the expert lol

You are wrong again. I am not a cuemaker wanna be. I am a wood turner wanna be and I make duck calls...

 

[qbilder]

First of all this has nothing to do with overseas cue makers. Until now I had utmost respect for Al because he worked hard to overcome the stigma attached to Filipino builders. I have been through this with another cue maker over rings, who happened to be American & we were on a rather friendly basis until he began copying cues I made. Call it a tribute, a copy, whatever. But personally, I consider a tribute to be something made to honor a dead or no longer practicing builder. Everything else, IMO, is just trying to use their ideas for your own personal money maker. So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with overseas builders.

Next is all these claims that there are other people doing it. Where? Show me pictures. I haven't seen it. Show it if you have. Otherwise quit talking out your ass because it's non truths. I know most American builders & a lot of overseas builders. I'm friends with 99% of them. I'd know if they were doing this. As I said, one builder DID do something vaguely similar & he personally showed it to me to discuss it. That's it, the only other that I know of. None of my other peers would do this to me, nor would I to them. And let me be clear. If it were just one of the back yard Filipino companies that did this for ebay, it wouldn't bother me. I respected Al & his abilities and creativity as a cue maker. He's supposed to be above this.

Lastly is the "patents". That's ridiculous if you know anything at all about how they work. Altering the size, dimensions, shape, etc. to a degree of provable difference will bypass any patent. Just ask Mike Gullyassy. Even when it is violated, it's up to the patent holder to file the claim in court and pays all lawyer & court costs. Even if you don't understand patent law, you shouldn't have any doubts about how much a court case can cost. On top of that, try getting a patent that is recognized AND protected internationally. No such thing for tiny issues like cues. The cost is thousands of times greater than the cost of the cue.

Point being, i'm upset because I created something unique that HAS NOT been done by any other builder in history. I took butterflies and miniaturized them to be used in the same manner as points. It's not the intarsia technique used by Samsara, or inlay patterns used by Gina. It's scallops. I created them. I named them. They are not puzzle pieces or inlays but actual splices. They're my idea. I don't need, nor is it logical to have a patent. I guess I was wrong to believe honor, integrity, & respect would prevent others from using that design. Apparently there are enough people to believe it's ok to do so.

I'm done. I said what I needed to say & made my point. I won't make it easy for anybody to copy anything. I don't think any cue maker should. And it has come to my attention from a Filipino who actually knows Al, that Al Bautista user name is NOT Al Bautista because Al doesn't speak fluent English. That makes this thread even more despicable because the man himself isn't even the one taking credit for, or defending himself. And how many English speaking people have chimed in here to say they are friends with him? Funny, huh? He doesn't even know who the hell you are, nor you him. You've been communicating with & befriending a pretender dummy. The term, "lost in translation", rings true here. Funny what comes out in the wash.

 

[scsuxci]

First of all this has nothing to do with overseas cue makers. Until now I had utmost respect for Al because he worked hard to overcome the stigma attached to Filipino builders. I have been through this with another cue maker over rings, who happened to be American & we were on a rather friendly basis until he began copying cues I made. Call it a tribute, a copy, whatever. But personally, I consider a tribute to be something made to honor a dead or no longer practicing builder. Everything else, IMO, is just trying to use their ideas for your own personal money maker. So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with overseas builders.

Next is all these claims that there are other people doing it. Where? Show me pictures. I haven't seen it. Show it if you have. Otherwise quit talking out your ass because it's non truths. I know most American builders & a lot of overseas builders. I'm friends with 99% of them. I'd know if they were doing this. As I said, one builder DID do something vaguely similar & he personally showed it to me to discuss it. That's it, the only other that I know of. None of my other peers would do this to me, nor would I to them. And let me be clear. If it were just one of the back yard Filipino companies that did this for ebay, it wouldn't bother me. I respected Al & his abilities and creativity as a cue maker. He's supposed to be above this.

Lastly is the "patents". That's ridiculous if you know anything at all about how they work. Altering the size, dimensions, shape, etc. to a degree of provable difference will bypass any patent. Just ask Mike Gullyassy. Even when it is violated, it's up to the patent holder to file the claim in court and pays all lawyer & court costs. Even if you don't understand patent law, you shouldn't have any doubts about how much a court case can cost. On top of that, try getting a patent that is recognized AND protected internationally. No such thing for tiny issues like cues. The cost is thousands of times greater than the cost of the cue.

Point being, i'm upset because I created something unique that HAS NOT been done by any other builder in history. I took butterflies and miniaturized them to be used in the same manner as points. It's not the intarsia technique used by Samsara, or inlay patterns used by Gina. It's scallops. I created them. I named them. They are not puzzle pieces or inlays but actual splices. They're my idea. I don't need, nor is it logical to have a patent. I guess I was wrong to believe honor, integrity, & respect would prevent others from using that design. Apparently there are enough people to believe it's ok to do so.

I'm done. I said what I needed to say & made my point. I won't make it easy for anybody to copy anything. I don't think any cue maker should. And it has come to my attention from a Filipino who actually knows Al, that Al Bautista user name is NOT Al Bautista because Al doesn't speak fluent English. That makes this thread even more despicable because the man himself isn't even the one taking credit for, or defending himself. And how many English speaking people have chimed in here to say they are friends with him? Funny, huh? He doesn't even know who the hell you are, nor you him. You've been communicating with & befriending a pretender dummy. The term, "lost in translation", rings true here. Funny what comes out in the wash.

I think somebody is pulling your leg and is making this debate even more pointless day by day.If you have not seen the countless of copy's and tributes of cuemakers that are still living then I suggest you go back in the threads and you'll find a slew of them.If you really think he stole this from you is fine thats your opinion,but bashing him won't win you this debate.If I show you other pictures of cues with scallops somewhere on the cue will you bash them the same way.Look at the Tad Tribute cue that Ariel Carmelli made that looks exact,will you now say the same thing about Ariel?

 

[sengkun108]

First of all this has nothing to do with overseas cue makers. Until now I had utmost respect for Al because he worked hard to overcome the stigma attached to Filipino builders. I have been through this with another cue maker over rings, who happened to be American & we were on a rather friendly basis until he began copying cues I made. Call it a tribute, a copy, whatever. But personally, I consider a tribute to be something made to honor a dead or no longer practicing builder. Everything else, IMO, is just trying to use their ideas for your own personal money maker. So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with overseas builders.

Next is all these claims that there are other people doing it. Where? Show me pictures. I haven't seen it. Show it if you have. Otherwise quit talking out your ass because it's non truths. I know most American builders & a lot of overseas builders. I'm friends with 99% of them. I'd know if they were doing this. As I said, one builder DID do something vaguely similar & he personally showed it to me to discuss it. That's it, the only other that I know of. None of my other peers would do this to me, nor would I to them. And let me be clear. If it were just one of the back yard Filipino companies that did this for ebay, it wouldn't bother me. I respected Al & his abilities and creativity as a cue maker. He's supposed to be above this.

Lastly is the "patents". That's ridiculous if you know anything at all about how they work. Altering the size, dimensions, shape, etc. to a degree of provable difference will bypass any patent. Just ask Mike Gullyassy. Even when it is violated, it's up to the patent holder to file the claim in court and pays all lawyer & court costs. Even if you don't understand patent law, you shouldn't have any doubts about how much a court case can cost. On top of that, try getting a patent that is recognized AND protected internationally. No such thing for tiny issues like cues. The cost is thousands of times greater than the cost of the cue.

Point being, i'm upset because I created something unique that HAS NOT been done by any other builder in history. I took butterflies and miniaturized them to be used in the same manner as points. It's not the intarsia technique used by Samsara, or inlay patterns used by Gina. It's scallops. I created them. I named them. They are not puzzle pieces or inlays but actual splices. They're my idea. I don't need, nor is it logical to have a patent. I guess I was wrong to believe honor, integrity, & respect would prevent others from using that design. Apparently there are enough people to believe it's ok to do so.

I'm done. I said what I needed to say & made my point. I won't make it easy for anybody to copy anything. I don't think any cue maker should. And it has come to my attention from a Filipino who actually knows Al, that Al Bautista user name is NOT Al Bautista because Al doesn't speak fluent English. That makes this thread even more despicable because the man himself isn't even the one taking credit for, or defending himself. And how many English speaking people have chimed in here to say they are friends with him? Funny, huh? He doesn't even know who the hell you are, nor you him. You've been communicating with & befriending a pretender dummy. The term, "lost in translation", rings true here. Funny what comes out in the wash.

GOOD POST......

Eric, i don't know who you are...But for my opinion you are a stand up gentleman. and you deseverd a green rep. That's for sure..

Eric here is my two cent, you can read it carrefully and take it or you may ignore it...

1...

in 1960.... most of leader in market industry is from the west (europe or america), Japanese come in, most for a similar product with a couple different thing and hit the west industry. Now in 1990-2010 era.. China doing the same thing with Japanese on 1960... similar product with NO DIFFERENT AT ALL... a cheap Knock off.

Japanese sell his product for more dollar because the R&D cost and gain a lot of money there. For example for they will sell 10$ item with 50$ price and gain 40$ spread.

Chinesse sell the same thing with 12$ and only gain 2$ gain....but with mass production, someday he will gain as much dollar as the Japanesse.

there is no different with both Chinese or Japanese

2...

You as a "leader cuemaker" have to design a lot of more and sell your cue with higher price.. Why?? because, that's the way it is for your bussiness. You are a west on 1960 or japanese on 2000 era. You don't have any power to stop the knockoff person to sell his product. Even if you already pattent your product, they will sell with just a little diffrent thing. Angry and dissapointed is not good for you and it will help you nothing. Just create another brilliant design and sell it for more dollar...


My english is very awfull
I hope you or somebody know what i mean...and can get the point of my post..

Best
Dedy (Chinesse imigrant here in Indonesia)

 

[Masirib5]

Mother of all Cue Design Theft Threads

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=8727

interesting read!

--Jeff

 

[qbilder]

I think somebody is pulling your leg and is making this debate even more pointless day by day.If you have not seen the countless of copy's and tributes of cuemakers that are still living then I suggest you go back in the threads and you'll find a slew of them.If you really think he stole this from you is fine thats your opinion,but bashing him won't win you this debate.If I show you other pictures of cues with scallops somewhere on the cue will you bash them the same way.Look at the Tad Tribute cue that Ariel Carmelli made that looks exact,will you now say the same thing about Ariel?

Cue design theft is a common problem. I never debated that. And those cue makers whom have had their designs stolen should stand up & quit allowing it. That's their fight. But they don't because they don't want to look like assholes or get into confrontation. If they did they know they'd have to deal with crap like this thread. Me, I don't care. I stand up for what's right whether it hurts me or not. I'm not here to debate whether or not design theft is right or wrong. I know it's wrong. I'm here to make it known that if it happens to me you're gonna have a fight on your hands. And I made my point. There's nothing to win. I can't get my originality back. All I can do is point out that it happened & i'm not ok with. I can't be walked on without you getting a thorn in your foot. The thread drags on because people actually defend this kind of nonsense & want to argue about why I feel the way I do, as if their posts are going to change the way I feel or illegitimize my point. But I made my point clear and anybody who knows simple right from wrong shouldn't have a problem understanding it.

 

[blackpearlmaker]

First of all this has nothing to do with overseas cue makers. Until now I had utmost respect for Al because he worked hard to overcome the stigma attached to Filipino builders. I have been through this with another cue maker over rings, who happened to be American & we were on a rather friendly basis until he began copying cues I made. Call it a tribute, a copy, whatever. But personally, I consider a tribute to be something made to honor a dead or no longer practicing builder. Everything else, IMO, is just trying to use their ideas for your own personal money maker. So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with overseas builders.

Next is all these claims that there are other people doing it. Where? Show me pictures. I haven't seen it. Show it if you have. Otherwise quit talking out your ass because it's non truths. I know most American builders & a lot of overseas builders. I'm friends with 99% of them. I'd know if they were doing this. As I said, one builder DID do something vaguely similar & he personally showed it to me to discuss it. That's it, the only other that I know of. None of my other peers would do this to me, nor would I to them. And let me be clear. If it were just one of the back yard Filipino companies that did this for ebay, it wouldn't bother me. I respected Al & his abilities and creativity as a cue maker. He's supposed to be above this.

Lastly is the "patents". That's ridiculous if you know anything at all about how they work. Altering the size, dimensions, shape, etc. to a degree of provable difference will bypass any patent. Just ask Mike Gullyassy. Even when it is violated, it's up to the patent holder to file the claim in court and pays all lawyer & court costs. Even if you don't understand patent law, you shouldn't have any doubts about how much a court case can cost. On top of that, try getting a patent that is recognized AND protected internationally. No such thing for tiny issues like cues. The cost is thousands of times greater than the cost of the cue.

Point being, i'm upset because I created something unique that HAS NOT been done by any other builder in history. I took butterflies and miniaturized them to be used in the same manner as points. It's not the intarsia technique used by Samsara, or inlay patterns used by Gina. It's scallops. I created them. I named them. They are not puzzle pieces or inlays but actual splices. They're my idea. I don't need, nor is it logical to have a patent. I guess I was wrong to believe honor, integrity, & respect would prevent others from using that design. Apparently there are enough people to believe it's ok to do so.

I'm done. I said what I needed to say & made my point. I won't make it easy for anybody to copy anything. I don't think any cue maker should. And it has come to my attention from a Filipino who actually knows Al, that Al Bautista user name is NOT Al Bautista because Al doesn't speak fluent English. That makes this thread even more despicable because the man himself isn't even the one taking credit for, or defending himself. And how many English speaking people have chimed in here to say they are friends with him? Funny, huh? He doesn't even know who the hell you are, nor you him. You've been communicating with & befriending a pretender dummy. The term, "lost in translation", rings true here. Funny what comes out in the wash.

Hello Eric, i just want to say that my utmost respect to you is still the same from the first day i joined the site. Regarding to the last paragraph of your post, let me correct you. yes, you maybe right that i can't speak English fluently, but i am still very lucky that i have my eldest son Aldex, 24 years of age who help me as my typewriter, he's been helping me alot not just here in computer but also on the shop. In fact, i trained and teach all i learned since he was in grade six and until now. and I can assure you that all that was posted here was came from me and not from anybodys mind or you said "dummy" and i dont see it as a problem. And i can honestly tell you that he really love your works, he said that your a unique man on this industry when it comes to woods selection, and hoping that someday he can see some of your cues in person.
Again i apologize for the all the incovenience given and fell sorry if i was not a good asset on the site on this time.

More powers to all,
Al

 

[qbilder]

[/COLOR]

Hello Eric, i just want to say that my utmost respect to you is still the same from the first day i joined the site. Regarding to the last paragraph of your post, let me correct you. yes, you maybe right that i can't speak English fluently, but i am still very lucky that i have my eldest son Aldex, 24 years of age who help me as my typewriter, he's been helping me alot not just here in computer but also on the shop. In fact, i trained and teach all i learned since he was in grade six and until now. and I can assure you that all that was posted here was came from me and not from anybodys mind or you said "dummy" and i dont see it as a problem. And i can honestly tell you that he really love your works, he said that your a unique man on this industry when it comes to woods selection, and hoping that someday he can see some of your cues in person.
Again i apologize for the all the incovenience given and fell sorry if i was not a good asset on the site on this time.

More powers to all,
Al

I stand corrected. My sincere apology to your son. He seems to be a well educated young man & no dummy. Understand the term, "dummy", in my post was relating the posts from you to actual dummies. Dummies are giant puppets that the ventriloquist artist channels through to make it appear as the doll is speaking. I apologize if my choice of reference offended your young son.

 

[icem3n]

[/COLOR]

Hello Eric, i just want to say that my utmost respect to you is still the same from the first day i joined the site. Regarding to the last paragraph of your post, let me correct you. yes, you maybe right that i can't speak English fluently, but i am still very lucky that i have my eldest son Aldex, 24 years of age who help me as my typewriter, he's been helping me alot not just here in computer but also on the shop. In fact, i trained and teach all i learned since he was in grade six and until now. and I can assure you that all that was posted here was came from me and not from anybodys mind or you said "dummy" and i dont see it as a problem. And i can honestly tell you that he really love your works, he said that your a unique man on this industry when it comes to woods selection, and hoping that someday he can see some of your cues in person.
Again i apologize for the all the incovenience given and fell sorry if i was not a good asset on the site on this time.

More powers to all,
Al

Antonio Gabica(one of Philippine top pool player) once brought me to the workshop. It was a very small workshop. There is hardly any proper flooring. Al and the two brothers were there at that time. All the three cue makers do not speak english. I had Antonio Gabica as a translator. Antonio Gabica was playing with one of their cue at that time.
The three brothers are not educated. They do not know what design theft is. The three brothers just built cue based on design given to them. The one who is to be blame should be the one asking for the cue to be built.
I doubt that the original Al would be so fascinated in building a cue that he rarely does. He would not waste his money on building a cue that he has no guarantee that will sell. He only makes cue based on orders.

 

[mrinsatiable]

Design theft is horrible and I will never be interested in filipino cues or other makers who have intentionally copied designs simply for the sake of cashing in on a profit.

Sugartree designs/construction are unique and well thought out in a world of empty shells of copies.

 

[JB Cases]

So let me ask an honest question. Do you guys have a problem with jb flowers cases over jack justis? He makes a tribute case that looks like an exact replica for half the price! I don't see him complaining about it. Probably because he believes in the quality of his work enough not to worry about it. Not to mention the guy who buys the jb flowers case wasn't gonna pony up the dough for the justis case anyway? You could say the same for your cues. The guy who buys the cheaper knockoff wasnt gonna pay out the extra cash to get the real deal anyway.

Oh boy, you all just had to bring me in on this didn't you?

1. The J.Flowers case is not a replica of any Justis ever made that I have seen. If I had wanted to make a Justis knockoff then I would have done that. The case is a combination of some Nora Van Horn tooling designs with my innovations to bring it up to modern standards.


2. The real deal? Every J.Flowers case made is better than any Justis ever made. Here is a direct quote from a person who just bought TWO MORE of our NVH/FLowers tribute cases:

" ok John, im eyeing another case...the "everglades" case that INDYQ has...nice. keep up the great work. I sold a justis case to get the NVH"

You want me to start quoting emails from Justis owners who bought my cases?

3. Jack Justis has complained plenty that the J.Flowers tribute cases are knockoffs of his cases but he is wrong.

This is what I have to say about that:
http://jbcases.com/caseblog/2009/12/24/jack-justis-cue-case-maker-almost-the-best/

4. You are SO off base if you think that people are buying J.Flowers cases because they don't want to spend the money on a Justis. A lot of my customers can buy anything they want at any time and they choose our cases because our cases are flat out better.

So enough about me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's talk about the cue and what I think about the situation. First of all it was made to replicate a Sugartree. That is the reason it was made and that goes beyond simply wanting to do the scallops. If one wants to do a certain technique then they should. I firmly believe in trying to better oneself through emulation and improvement if possible.

But then own it and do something to make it your own, don't make pretty much duplicates of someone else's work.

I was asked to recreate the Fellini cases. I took on that challenge and feel that I have made a case that is better than original Fellinis. I could have just duplicated them pretty much verbatim, latch and all but I decided to improve them (in my opinion).

I have been asked many times to make an exact replica of a particular Justis or a particular Murnak and I have always refused.

Here is one such case where I was sent a picture of a Justis and asked to make an EXACT copy only with someone else's name on it.

This is what I made instead:

You can look from here to eternity and never find a Justis that looks like this. However it does have some elements that are "justisy" to satisfy the client's wishes.

I told the American Cuemaker's Association in 1996/7 somewhere in there that they were going to increase the amount of copying of their designs due to them coming together and producing brochures and disseminating the pictures. And I was right, didn't take a genius to see it coming.

Now fast forward to having high res pictures of every high end cue ever made splashed all over the net, creating demand that can't be satisfied and you end up with situations where makers are asked to replicate the work of others.

My take on it is that if that happens then the maker being asked should try very very hard to talk the customer into allowing them to figure out their own interpretation of that style if they intend to take the order. Deliberately taking a design almost verbatim is cheesy.

I can understand doing it in order to learn but then that product doesn't leave my shop.

I understand Eric's frustration here since he innovated this look as far as I know. It's brutal to see it copied and even MORE brutal when NO credit is given by either the cue maker or the buyer as to where the design came from.

I think that Bautista is genuinely sorry about it but how that is going to work out between him and Eric is not clear.

Brutal situation. Bad Karma.

 

[blackpearlmaker]

Antonio Gabica(one of Philippine top pool player) once brought me to the workshop. It was a very small workshop. There is hardly any proper flooring. Al and the two brothers were there at that time. All the three cue makers do not speak english. I had Antonio Gabica as a translator. Antonio Gabica was playing with one of their cue at that time.
The three brothers are not educated. They do not know what design theft is. The three brothers just built cue based on design given to them. The one who is to be blame should be the one asking for the cue to be built.
I doubt that the original Al would be so fascinated in building a cue that he rarely does. He would not waste his money on building a cue that he has no guarantee that will sell. He only makes cue based on orders.

Hello sir, Thanks for the info, just a little background. Yes, i am the eldest of the Bautista brothers, and the first to start a shop, I think it was the time when my brothers are still working to me, and everyone is in fresh exposed of what cuemaking is all about, its like love at first sight and then lot of changes happen on the following years, I decided to let my brothers, work for the Late Edwin Reyes, because he started his own shop in Quezon City and he needs people that time, and i continue with my own, did some upgrade, with my eldest son as my helper, i learn a lot of things, at that time, Filipino cuemakers was very popular when it comes to copying a design until now maybe, specially in Pampanga Areas, since the U.S. based was there and lot of American soldiers active or retired personnel love the billiards sport as their past time, thats why they dont have any concern for their own design and just love to copy others work, and i guess we all know whats the main reasons of it. Plus the fact that, not also familiar with the computer and internet that time. All works is just for the benefits of bringing food to their family, But i realized on those early times, those who still in the slave of copying others works are still stagnant and contented of what they have, and will never ever grow and the real talent of uniqueness will not be showcased. And thats the reason i am trying to explore and try new ideas until to the present, its not just because of the money, but as what is Eric said honor, integrity, & respect is also a big factor. Making a new path and changing the mentality of people when it comes to Filipino cuemaker is my greatest dream but i know its not that easy to do, where i will be proud of my country for not because we have a talented cuemaker who is great when it comes to copying anothers work but also has something to offer despite some limitations.
And by the way, until one time my brothers, decided not to work with ER anymore and they started to start their own shop as well. And it was lead now by Tony Bautista or Jazz cues..

Have a nice day to all,
Al

 

[Charlie Edwards]

What if a cuemaker is given a design and he doesn't know it is a copy? He builds the cue and the buyer shows it off. Should the maker be criticized for copying, when he didn't know what he was doing?

It seems to me that Mr. Baytista is the victim here, too. The fault belongs to the one that ordered that design to be build and not leveling with the him that it is a copy. Just my 2 cents.

 

[classiccues]

In other words... go ahead and steal other makers designs... it's fine. So someone doesn't want to pay the prices of the original designer and maker's product... go find someone who will rip off the design and make it cheaper.. it's OK. There is nothing wrong with that.

Unbelievable...

You mean like this cue?

http://www.new2youqs.com/cues/blackcreek.html

Jamie,
All I can say is cue design theft is an either all in, or all out subject. I have heard many times by some fat a$$ that there is a grey area, there isn't. I have heard that older design elements are fair game by people like yourself that want to protect a newer active cuemaker such as Eric. I find this stance extremely hypocritical.
I do not see a grey area. Someone else see's a grey area because all of his "friends" have done it. Those guys get the grey area pass. I don't have grey area's to extend to my friends, but then again I don't have a problem with this issue at all. I would have, if the cue was being made to be sold as an original. This has rarely been the case.

Let me ask these simple questions?

How long before something gets called a "common design element"?

Who makes that determination?

If you cannot answer these questions with complete confidence, you cannot make any claim on CDT. It's that simple.

I can see why Eric is uppity and I don't blame him since that is his belief, on this cue. However, cue history has shown this practice is extremely common. Did he not build a Harvey Martin tribute cue recently? Sorry Eric, no pass. Regardless of WHY you did it, and IIRC there are going to be 10 of them? C'mon, you aren't the guy to be complaining right now. Would Harvey Martin be complaining? Oh wait, he is dead so that makes it ok?

I have a no hypocrite allowed policy, and that has no grey areas. However you may feel on the subject is very personal. If you don't like copies, never buy another Hoppe Ring cue, ever. No grey area. If it doesn't bother you buy what you want.

HOWEVER, it's all in, or all out, there is no grey area. Only people who are hypocritical need a "grey" area. Just look at what they say and you'll know where their hearts really lie on this issue.

JV

 

[ARROWCRUSHER]

What if a cuemaker is given a design and he doesn't know it is a copy? He builds the cue and the buyer shows it off. Should the maker be criticized for copying, when he didn't know what he was doing?

It seems to me that Mr. Baytista is the victim here, too. The fault belongs to the one that ordered that design to be build and not leveling with the him that it is a copy. Just my 2 cents.

I was waiting for this to be said,,and no that is not what happened here. I am the original owner from new .The cue was already designed and in it's ready to be finished state. It was offered to me as a replacement cue to one that was traded to me and had issues from either being left in the cold or elements .The original owner traded it to me with problems and I contacted AL. Al Bautista made good and stood behind his work and offered for me to send the cue back and he replace the cue. This is what I got. If I knew all this was going to come about I would have just kept the cue and put it away . I was starting to sell some cues I didnt use and decided to list this one for what I had into the original cue I traded for this one. Thats why I only asked what I did for it. I wasnt out to make a profit , I wasnt out to show it off as a Surgartree. I made this clear before the sale ever took place and to the group of people and Pm's I had on this cue. I ven said why I was only asking what I did for the cue, just to get out what I had into the cue I had traded off. I sat back and watched this all erupt and waited for someone to bring the original owner into this and say I had this cue made this way and that is not what happened at all. I just wanted to be clear with all of this. And after this started I contacted the new owner and asked him if he wanted his money back ,,which he declined ,,, <<< ED

 

[Worminator]

Jamie,
All I can say is cue design theft is an either all in, or all out subject. I have heard many times by some fat a$$ that there is a grey area, there isn't. I have heard that older design elements are fair game by people like yourself that want to protect a newer active cuemaker such as Eric. I find this stance extremely hypocritical.

Believe what you will Joe, but this is not a black & white subject. You seem to jump out criticize others beliefs on the subject. You have plenty of cues on your site that are by newer makers using traditional designs. You have commissioned cues that were copies of deceased cuemakers. There is no way there will ever cease to be traditional designs made by modern cuemakers... until you come to grips with that concept, there cannot be any further discussion on the subject.

I do not see a grey area. Someone else see's a grey area because all of his "friends" have done it. Those guys get the grey area pass. I don't have grey area's to extend to my friends, but then again I don't have a problem with this issue at all. I would have, if the cue was being made to be sold as an original. This has rarely been the case.

Let me ask these simple questions?

How long before something gets called a "common design element"?

Who makes that determination?

If you cannot answer these questions with complete confidence, you cannot make any claim on CDT. It's that simple.

No... it is not that simple... it is very complicated. Again, no one can make this a black & white subject... it's impossible.

I have a no hypocrite allowed policy, and that has no grey areas. However you may feel on the subject is very personal. If you don't like copies, never buy another Hoppe Ring cue, ever. No grey area. If it doesn't bother you buy what you want.

HOWEVER, it's all in, or all out, there is no grey area. Only people who are hypocritical need a "grey" area. Just look at what they say and you'll know where their hearts really lie on this issue.

JV

So based on your comments, you are all in for CDT. Since you have commissioned cues with designs from other makers, whether alive or dead, that means you believe CDT is just fine. All in or all out right? A no hypocrite policy...

 

[classiccues]

Why there is no grey area...

On these cues, lets say for sake of arguement that the originator is Frank Paradise. So the inlay "pattern" is done with what is essentially guitar inlays. However they arranged in a specific pattern that Frank had to develop in his head. I am sure through trial and error he decided on this pattern.
Doesn't Paradise deserve the same respect that Eric should get? Yet no one bats an eye when this design is used. The length of time is irrelevent to one's creativity. If you ripped the Mona Lisa you'ld still be considered a forger, right? Cues are art, right?

How many Mona Lisa's are there? Some prints, some repro paintings. More than you can count. Why do people get them? Because they can't afford the original, and quite frankly it's not an option.

JV