Cowardly is a bit extreme, considering the great cue makers who get copied by MY generation of builders, were dead long before we ever even began building cues period. The exception is SW & Gina. That's like saying I was 11 years old just waiting on Harvey Martin to die so I could copy his style of cues, and then cowardly schemed to steal his legacy. I guess it's not feasible to accept that I maybe looked up to & admired Martin & his outlook on cues, and that he was a huge inspiration to me. So when I reached a level of skill that I felt would do him justice, I made a tribute to honor him for being a big part of why i'm a cue maker today. And forget the whole "capitalizing" on it. I gave that cue away to help TAR do what they do because I believe in them and what they do for pool. All three of the tribute cues are to be GIVEN to TAR. If something good comes back to me then it's all extra. But that is by no means cowardly or hypocritical. You sure have a fine choice of words for a very limited understanding of who I am as a person and cue maker. You called me a hypocrite for building a tribute cue I GAVE away, not sold. Then a coward because I did it after he was dead. Are you really that shallow?
New cue Al Baytista 8 pointer
- Thread starter Servicky
- Start date
Cowardly is a bit extreme, considering the great cue makers who get copied by MY generation of builders, were dead long before we ever even began building cues period. The exception is SW & Gina. That's like saying I was 11 years old just waiting on Harvey Martin to die so I could copy his style of cues, and then cowardly schemed to steal his legacy. I guess it's not feasible to accept that I maybe looked up to & admired Martin & his outlook on cues, and that he was a huge inspiration to me. So when I reached a level of skill that I felt would do him justice, I made a tribute to honor him for being a big part of why i'm a cue maker today. And forget the whole "capitalizing" on it. I gave that cue away to help TAR do what they do because I believe in them and what they do for pool. All three of the tribute cues are to be GIVEN to TAR. If something good comes back to me then it's all extra. But that is by no means cowardly or hypocritical. You sure have a fine choice of words for a very limited understanding of who I am as a person and cue maker. You called me a hypocrite for building a tribute cue I GAVE away, not sold. Then a coward because I did it after he was dead. Are you really that shallow?
This will be my last post on this cue...
The kicker for me, beyond the scallops, was the design of the butt cap in conjunction with the overall design of the rest of the cue. Putting the black phenolic at the bottom of a butt cap is just another attempt to make this cue look like as much like a Sugatree as possible.
Mr Bautista's last response, and lack of apology for stealing the design, shows there is no remorse. There is no way this cue was not designed with the intent of making it look like one of Eric's cues.
Thank you for posting the picture. The best way to argue this is to do exactly what you did - show the originality of the design and the mirror copy.
Eric - you did the right thing calling Al out on this blatant copy of your ideas. It cheapens the copy, not your cue. The integfrity of the design and the maker will be reflected in the prices collectors will be willing to pay for many, many years to come.
I am sure Al will take this to heart and hopefully understand.
Chris
cheap copy
why would it drop the price of this cue ??? You might me correct your in the cue market not me but i have been around billiards my whole life and owned a vending company in paducah where we had over 100 tables..
What would someone pay for my cue any takers?????
why would it drop the price of this cue ??? You might me correct your in the cue market not me but i have been around billiards my whole life and owned a vending company in paducah where we had over 100 tables..
What would someone pay for my cue any takers?????
man o man
Ya know i kept my mouth shut and let you ****ers highjack my thread. Acceptable Because i understand a copy is a copy. But when you know im in the market for a sugartree and then you downgrade the cue i have untill i make up my mind on buying one enough is enough.i Think the point has been made I cant speak for AL but i dont think you will be seeing anymore scallops on his cue in that order. I am the owner of this cue please do not degrade the cue you havent seen it nor played with it. I critiqued it and said its flaws i have owned sevral 2000 cues that has had flaws as well But I didnt degrade them I am a craftsman and have been working in my field for over 20 yrs and i have flaws as well that does not make me cheap.... If you guys have a friggin problem with someone Guess What MSG them..
Ya know i kept my mouth shut and let you ****ers highjack my thread. Acceptable Because i understand a copy is a copy. But when you know im in the market for a sugartree and then you downgrade the cue i have untill i make up my mind on buying one enough is enough.i Think the point has been made I cant speak for AL but i dont think you will be seeing anymore scallops on his cue in that order. I am the owner of this cue please do not degrade the cue you havent seen it nor played with it. I critiqued it and said its flaws i have owned sevral 2000 cues that has had flaws as well But I didnt degrade them I am a craftsman and have been working in my field for over 20 yrs and i have flaws as well that does not make me cheap.... If you guys have a friggin problem with someone Guess What MSG them..
Smart, you stole what I wrote. :thumbup:
Now you put me responsible.
Al is not educated. You should see the workshop they working in. Primitive tools. I doubt that he is computer literate. I doubt he has access to the internet. I doubt he know who ERIC CRISP is.
Smart, you stole what I wrote. :thumbup:
Now you put me responsible.
Al is not educated. You should see the workshop they working in. Primitive tools. I doubt that he is computer literate. I doubt he has access to the internet. I doubt he know who ERIC CRISP is.
I stole what you wrote? LOL, that's some funny stuff. You wrote that Al only built cues from customer designs.
You sounded reasonable and I somewhat believed that you knew what you were talking about... and that turned out to be a mistake because it has now been shown that you don't have a clue.
I STOLE from you? Get real, you have NOTHING I would want for free, more or less something I would have to STEAL from you!
I used it as an example, not you directly. But hey, I am not the one here justifying it. Let me add, you don't like my use of words, quite frankly, I don't care. You see a copy with your cue, but a tribute with others. That's ok. IMHO Al could have easily just said it's a tribute to you and if you don't like it, well that's too bad.
Cosmetically that cue fails on a lot of levels. If it was me, I'd be mad that he screwed my design up. But that's just me.
JV
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To Sir JV (Classiccue)Sir, i know exactly what you want to tell for everyone here..Let's make it simple Ok... what you want to say is that every cuemaker has copy design from their late cuemaker..Dead or alive...
So, you feel that Eric don't have any right to pissed off about his original design copied by AL Bautista..LOL..
Well...In this thread. Eric and John Barton already said everything..
Yes, Everything need to enlightened the ignorant people here...I can not get it more accurate than them. And it is very easy to understand their languange. I'm from Indonesia and not very good with english and i still know what their point.
You want to get those point, it's very easy. You have to know the moral code, the different between right and wrong, the ethic of bussiness. and most of all you have to got a wise point of view.(I hope somebody know what i said)
Eric has every right to angry with somebody who "use" his original design and make some profit and in the same time attack his bussiness. Well, if somehow Al can make a lot of order for eric "scallop design", i believe Eric bussiness will be hurt. You don't have to be a genius to know this matter.
About a problem with another cuemaker like blackcreek use harvey martin design or Mr carmeli use Mr kohara design.. Well, it's easy to solve it. Send a PM or Email them for what they did. Well, maybe Mr Kohara already give a permission to Mr carmeli to use his design like Jay flower with John barton. or maybe there is another excuse. Why we even to bother their problem? but in this thread.. Yes, Eric said loud that he is not permited anybody to use his original design.
And about a knockoff vs tribute.
Tribute is something you make to honor the original maker. A tribute can sell for more higher price then the original product. YES, I SAID that and you have to know it's true if you are a man involved is bussiness for a long time..
But, it's different with a knock off..a Knock off product always sell for LESSER PRICE than the original. Because it's just a cheap copy to make a profit. So, if someone make a knock off.. it is very easy to know his/her intention. TO MAKE A PROFIT...
If somebody still don't get the point in this post, i don't know what to say anymore..
Best
Dedy (indonesia)
This is a valid point but makers wouldn't build them if there wasn't a market for them. Do you take any personal responsibility by selling these cues on your site? You are creating a market, are you not? In some cases, you have an original and a copy on the same page. Is that not hypocritical or am I missing something.....
I am tired. That was a lot of reading. I hear people talk about a copy. I see no copy. The cue he made and the other cue in the FS forum are not like any other ST cue I have seen. Sure they have scallops. Aside from that feature they are unique. I think the one in the FS section is gorgeous. Personally, I thinkl this should have all been done behind the scenes. I have seen people copy from living cuemakers and nothing has been said to them. Last I checked, Tad is still alvie and how many Tribute cues have we seen by how many different cuemakers that charge 700-1000 for them. Sorry, but guess what, there are no patents on things you can do with a pool cue. Hell, MG had a patent on the break ferrul and you see what that did for him. Nothing. How many different cuemakers use that? Or, who came up with the first wrapless merry widow? Sure as hell wasnt you Eric. But I have seen a bunch of yours out here. Bottom line, this whole thing was handled poorly by Eric and a few senior members here. This should have been done behind the screen via email. Instead, true colors come out, an innocent man has his cue get destroyed via AZ and I have found that there are some really big assholes on here. Just my .02.
Oh and by the way, I like the cue. GL Vick.
Oh and by the way, I like the cue. GL Vick.
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You called?
You really did it now Dave. You went against the grain here telling it like it really is. The big boys won't like it. L.O.L.
"country" Bob
You really did it now Dave. You went against the grain here telling it like it really is. The big boys won't like it. L.O.L.
"country" Bob
Not too worried about it Bob. Hope all is well with you. Got one more thing to add though. In my limited 16 years of being around pool and cues, I have seen and learned alot. One fairly new thing I have seen are the paper veneers. Who did them first? I think the first ones I saw were on a Haley but not sure. But for argument sake lets say he was. Did Hercek, White, Gilbert, Zinzola and however many others that make them called him up and said "Do you mind if I do this?" Willing to bet none. But hey, if we are flaming Al for basically doing the same thing, light the torches and lets go get these other guys too.
My opinion might change a little when I see every cuemaker pay a royalty to BS for what his father did and all the copies of his work I have seen through the years.
And in case ya'll missed it, here is a new cue that has a similarity to a Prewitt. Let s go get him. He cant even come up with is own design. Knockoff artist.
http://www.cornerstonecues.com/cue409.htm
My opinion might change a little when I see every cuemaker pay a royalty to BS for what his father did and all the copies of his work I have seen through the years.
And in case ya'll missed it, here is a new cue that has a similarity to a Prewitt. Let s go get him. He cant even come up with is own design. Knockoff artist.
http://www.cornerstonecues.com/cue409.htm
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With all due respect, you must be joking.
So...let me get this straight; Al makes a cue that, IMHO, is a direct copy of a ST cue. (see post #38) Al admitted to it and feels pretty rotten. It was purchased by an "innocent man" who couldn't get a ST and bought a knock off by his own admission. I feel the original post was made as a knock to Eric for not returning his emails or calls. (there, I said it. sorry, just my opinion.)
Eric comes on and defends his design and gets labeled as an asshole while the others are victims. How is that fair? This is how he feeds his family. Had Al done an interpretation of the scallops, with his own flair, it may be a different story but this one......(see post #38)
All the BS side, I was in shock when I first saw this thread. I mean shock! I have seen just about everything and this one really blew me away. It sucks for everyone involved and I like Al and Eric.
I'd like to know what everyone else does for a living. If this was your livelihood, would it be ok?
I'm sorry.. So what is your point of view about copy.. That the cue MUST exactly the same with eric cue...
Well, if your has red carefully for this thread. You may know that "Scalop design" is create by Eric. It's not an inlay, it's a fullsplice (correct me if i'm wrong). Al build this cue and the one on the Forum wanted/sell with this design and this tehnique. (again correct me if i'm wrong). And When you see the cue, 70% your view will get the scalop design. Anything up for 70% is a copy.
So, yes it is a copy for Eric, for me and for many other member.
Don't get me wrong here.. i don't attack Al bautista or the OP.
I respect Al bautista for his work. Once Jeff de luna (one of Pro Pool Player in Phillipine) said to me that i must contact Al to build me a cue, because he is a good cuemaker. and in another post here said that antonio gabica also use his work. That's say a lot of thing.
But, yes. I agree that AL copy Eric design on his cue. i don't know exactly his intention for doing this. Maybe he admire Eric design and build a cue to honor him. Or maybe he just making that cue for make some profit.
I wouldn't be too quick to assume this.....I know for a stone cold fact that at least one did.
I also would be willing to bet that a lot more discussion and collaboration between cuemakers about techniques go on nowadays behind the scenes.
that's the best sentence in this entire thread.
Agreed. Seems to me, after reading FAR too many pages in this thread, that was the intent. Also seems to me that the OP was genuinely happy with his purchase, and wanted to share photos of what he got...but there appeared to be a small "dig" in there towards Eric.
I can say this about the whole "design theft" topic - I have had several cuemakers make cues that were...um..."tributes" to a particular cue I could not afford to buy from the big dog. Upon posting pictures and intel of those cues, I was given all kinds of compliments and "congrats" messages about them. Not once did anyone ever dog me out for buying a "knock-off" cue. I hate to say it...but sometimes it seems as though peoples' tolerance of the practice is conditional...depending on who the "tribute" cuemaker might be, or who the buyer is/was.
My opinion...God knows...isn't right, wrong, or indifferent to most folks. That said - IMO - a guy/gal has the right to buy the cue they want to buy, when they want to buy it, for whatever reasons they may have to do so.
In a perfect world...every cuemaker would get the "okay" from the person who came up with the original design...but we all know that won't happen. The fact that there are so many tributes/copies/knock-offs out there shows that there's a market for them. As long as people are willing to buy one, the practice will continue.
I'll go back to my room and color now.....
That is what a copy is. A mirror image of what is COPIED. Now, do I think the scallops are like a ST, sure. Just like a bunch of different designs that I have seen being reproduced by many top cuemakers. But here's something else. These "scallops" are basically tiny butterfly splices correct? Then basically what Eric has done is put a spin on an old cue construction method. Kudos to him. But to say the idea of putting the wood together this way is 100% original is false. Should Al have talked to Eric about him building a cue with scallops? Maybe. Personally, it is up to him. Does Eric have a patent? Is there really a design out there that is 100% original?(Talking cues made in the last 20 years.) Are there better ways of handling this whole situation? No, no, yes.
And to answer Rat, sure it is similar but compared to the picture Jamie posted, it isnt even remotely close. Scallops in the wrong place. Number of points. Butt cap is totally different. 2 sets of scallops as opposed to one. A bunch of differences.
Vick, I am sorry that you showing your cue off has brought such bad attention. It is a nice cue regardless of who made it. And I may buy the other one in the FS section just for the fun of it.
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Did Richard contact Tony about BB when he did this butt cap? HMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
http://www.cornerstonecues.com/Images/Cue396/cue396.jpg
I guess we need to climb up his butt as well.
http://www.cornerstonecues.com/Images/Cue396/cue396.jpg
I guess we need to climb up his butt as well.