no luck 10 ball

[housecue]

With all these talk about too much luck in 9 ball, I wonder why most tournaments are still won by the best players.

Nine ball to me is my favorite game for its simplicity (in rules and concept), speed, and excitement. Some of the excitement are directly attributed to luck such as unintentionally saftey or ball pocketed.

Every game has its place. If you want a game to be all about no luck and skill, we do have 14.1 and one pocket. But if you want a game where players has to overcome the odds with wit and skill to an exciting victory. It's 9 Ball.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

No luck 10 ball

SMJ & Housecue. I certainly must agree with certain aspects/arguments that you have discussed and that luck is in fact a part of 9 Ball in its current state. Luck in 9 Ball is also something to talk about when its all over and done. I must also agree that 14.1 and one pocket require more skill with less luck.

Overall I consider myself a very lucky person in life and pool for that matter. I think however that the professionals (which isn't me!) in the game would want less luck involved and thats why I proposed the modified Roll out game.

 

[av84fun]

A game of 10 ball played with rules that would take out most of the luck, maybe 90% or better. Here is the game. Call shot and called safeties. The incoming player has the option to return the shot on all missed balls and pocketed safeties. The 10 does not win on the break, and the 10 ball on a scratch must be made off the spot, behind the line. I like 10 ball because there is no corner ball wired and more situations of clusters and tied up balls develop. It is a game of cue ball control and precise patterns. If I miss a ball and a hook happens or a tough bank is left you can let me shoot the shot. This game will make that days better player victorious, and not decide a win by luck. This is how Danny D. and I played in Buffalo back when I was a young player in the 70's. We had great matches and after we went out to eat like friends. The wins went back and forth and there was good feeling on the losers part as he knew he got beat by a better player that day.

Mike, I think that's a GREAT format for gambling matches.
But if you believe that TV is necessary to sustain pro tour events, then that format would only lead to MORE editing and the exclusion of more entire racks.

In addition, there are things that can and should be done to reduce the luck factor in 9 Ball. Spot the 9 on the break for one. Racking above the spot also seems to eliminate the dead wing ball.

But where I differ with you, in a way, is your comment that more clusters would happen in 10 ball and that somehow would reduce the luck factor. Balls clustering up...or not clustering up...is a random event. Yes, with more balls there are likely to me more clusters. But having 11% more balls
(10 vs.9) isn't going to cause that much more clustering but still would stand as a significant luck factor for the player who breaks and gets no clusters.


But bottom line, there is pure luck in every sport...except possiby boxing and the martial arts. No punch is luck...it is the victory of offense over defense.


And I think that a CERTAIN amount of luck adds to the excitement of the match. Franco Harris' Immaculate Reception, for example, was chosen by NFL Films as the greatest play in football of all time!

BTW, I have one of your original Sledgehammers and will NEVER part with it. Breaks like a cannon and jumps like a mutha!

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Sorry, but taking two way shots out of 10-ball removes a major element of skill. Two way shots may be the single most interesting aspect of nine and ten ball, and eliminating them to get rid of slop, which is a very minor issue at pro level, is too big a price to pay. In fact, whether it's nine ball, ten ball, or one-pocket, I think much of the majesty of the game is tied up in the fact that offense and defense can be played simulltaneously. Which player is more creative and skillful in doing so has a lot to do wit who the better player is. Why anyone would remove this huge element of skill is beyond me. Pool is far more than pocketing and position.

Agreed. And WOW...your eloquence is something to which the rest of us can only aspire.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

I must say on thing about the pro level, luck is a large factor in the game. This rule we play about missing balls (on every level) and the incoming player is punished for it is so unfair. I can not think of any other game in sports that produces wins from choking and hooking the opponent. Not only does the person that choked feel like this is his opportunity to change the game back in his favor but it makes the player that comes to the table feel like he might lose now and he did nothing wrong(negative thinking). Every player has played someone that he know he can beat because of one reason or another. The reason is the persons cue ball. We all make the same shots but the players that make the shots and controls their cue ball the best will win, this is what makes him a better player. This is why the Philippines players play so well, it is cue ball control. This is why the better player wins strait pool and one pocket and banks, it is cue ball control. This is why better players can spot weaker players, it is cue ball control. Why is Efren the best, he has the best cue ball.
We have played call shot tournaments and the best players always win. I would like to see pro pool on the level it deserves because it is the hardest game in the world.

Yes, in a given match, luck can be the deciding issue. But luck, by definition is a random event and MUST equal out over time. If that were not true, then allision could not have more tour victories than all other
WPBA pros combined.

But for GAMBLING, which is a one time event...not a stop on a tour season, I agree that reducing luck at the expense of everything else, is a sound idea.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

I was really enjoying your points on this post until the statement "hardest game in the world". I love to see posts with an expressed passion for the game, but that statement made me LOL....sorry, just had to comment. Good post though.

Gotta agree with you Rusty. Golf is highly analagous to pool in that both involve getting balls into holes...by using "clubs"...that impart top, side and back spin.

So when pool is played on a tilted surface, where the break shot must equal around 90 mph...and is played in the wind and rain, then I'll vote for pool!

(-:

 

[Pushout]

Gotta agree with you Rusty. Golf is highly analagous to pool in that both involve getting balls into holes...by using "clubs"...that impart top, side and back spin.

So when pool is played on a tilted surface, where the break shot must equal around 90 mph...and is played in the wind and rain, then I'll vote for pool!

(-:

Golf you shoot 'till your ball is in the hole. Pool, if the ball doesn't go in the hole, you sit. Not even close.

 

[sjm]

I think however that the professionals (which isn't me!) in the game would want less luck involved and thats why I proposed the modified Roll out game.

Unfortunately, you continue to state it as fact that this format, which we both agree would eliminate certain elements of luck, is the more skillful version of ten ball. I think that, because the format proposed strips the game of some of its defense, two way shots, and reduces the need to be skillful at kicks, jumps and masses, the result is a brand of ten ball requiring less skill, and one that would be a bit less likely to reward the cueist with the best all around skill set.

Anyway, you've made a lot of good points along the way, and it has been an interesting dialogue.

 

[softshot]

In all of the major sports, there are rules for amateurs, as well as rules for the higher levels of play. If forced to play these luck defying rules, the amateurs will slowly go away before there is a love developed for the game.

You can't make it too difficult for them to win, but at the same time, promote continued growth with skill building rules with a side of luck. There-in-lies the true challenge.

Most amateurs play bar box 8 ball and call every kiss, carom, rail, nudge, everything. and they perceive anyone who doesn't as a slop player.

I think the amateurs have weighed in on call shop.

 

[the420trooper]

Sounds like Grady's Rules

My friends and I have actually played a lot of what we called "Grady's Rules" 10-ball. Call shots, call safeties, BIH behind the line. Also, the ten has to be the last ball on the table, if it goes early, it spots and you keep shooting.The beautiful part about the game is you have to call a shot or safe, even on kicks. It forces you to try to achieve a specific result when kicking. You never, never, hit and hope, which heightens the defensive and strategic elements of the game. Still, the best way to win is to break and run out. I think it's the most technically perfect rotation game I've seen.

 

[av84fun]

Golf you shoot 'till your ball is in the hole. Pool, if the ball doesn't go in the hole, you sit. Not even close.

Sorry, but an analogy does not have to perfectly describe anything. I must only be....well...analagous.

(-:

 

[Pushout]

Sorry, but taking two way shots out of 10-ball removes a major element of skill. Two way shots may be the single most interesting aspect of nine and ten ball, and eliminating them to get rid of slop, which is a very minor issue at pro level, is too big a price to pay. In fact, whether it's nine ball, ten ball, or one-pocket, I think much of the majesty of the game is tied up in the fact that offense and defense can be played simulltaneously. Which player is more creative and skillful in doing so has a lot to do wit who the better player is. Why anyone would remove this huge element of skill is beyond me. Pool is far more than pocketing and position.

My understanding of a two-way shot: you shoot and miss, getting position on the next ball, but leaving no shot for the incoming player, right?? I'm the incoming player and I pay for your mistake, or lack of skill in pocketing the original shot, correct?? The skill here involves the ability to execute the shot, your bad luck, or lack of skill makes me pay a price in not having a shot. This type of shot still caters to the luck factor. If I have the option to give the shot back to you, then it's simply your lack of skill in pocketing the ball that is at stake, here. Now, you have to pay for your mistake. Unless responding to a deliberate safety, it?s always been about the other player's mistake.
All this aside, I do think that if the rules were changed to make the game more offensive, it would lose it's appeal to a great many players, though I'm not sure why.

 

[ribdoner]

Most amateurs play bar box 8 ball and call every kiss, carom, rail, nudge, everything. and they perceive anyone who doesn't as a slop player.

Some amateurs fancy themselves as better fighters/arguers than players. Complex, specific rules results in more opportunities to justify not handing over the cheese.

adam=========>didn't want to hear the "rulz" when scufflin in bars

 

[Cuedog]

Most amateurs play bar box 8 ball and call every kiss, carom, rail, nudge, everything. and they perceive anyone who doesn't as a slop player.

I think the amateurs have weighed in on call shop.

Ignorance of the rules and the desire to cheat your opponent out of his hard earned shot, does not a fair game make. These same amateurs use the butt of their house cue placed between the rail and the cue ball to determine the distance the cue ball should "legally" be placed if it comes to rest on the rail.

I'd rather not let the inmates run the asylum.

Gene

 

[Race2-9]

no luck

Where are you going to get all of the refs for these games? I agree with a call pocket, call safe but also allow an individual to call a two-way i.e. carom off 2, 9 ball in corner. If the ball doen't go...then ball in hand. It's been my experience that call shot is more pain in the (*&^ than equalling factor. One more comment, for the individual that says the amatuer plays call shot rail, etc I don't think that's true with all the leagues in the U.S. by the rules presently writen 8-ball is a nomination game (call ball and pocket) JMHO

 

[trustyrusty]

Golf you shoot 'till your ball is in the hole. Pool, if the ball doesn't go in the hole, you sit. Not even close.

the whole miss you sit doesn't work....in either, if you can't get the ball in the hole YOU LOSE!. Sure you get to keep trying if you miss a few putts, but then you have to press (try to make up shots on remaining holes) which is like the equivalent of never being able to play safe....

BTW, I've played on greens almost as hard as a slate table, and as fast as any Simonis I've ever seen. Throw is multiple tiers, lots of undulation, and wind (yep, wind can effect a PUTT on fast enough greens).

Back to the luck factor - in short races I can understand wanting to take that factor out, but in long races...doesn't come up enough (in high level play) to really matter. Since I hardly ever play 9 or 10 ball, I don't really care - change all the rules as you see fit.

 

[B_White]

I've been saying this for a while. MANDATORY PUSHOUT AFTER THE BREAK. No matter if the breaker made 0 balls or 3 balls on the break. Think about it, takes away the single biggest luck factor in 9 ball. Who gets more shots on the 1 after the break. Also, each game starts with a "move". Promise the best player wins in this format, not the best breaker.

 

[sjm]

I've been saying this for a while. MANDATORY PUSHOUT AFTER THE BREAK. No matter if the breaker made 0 balls or 3 balls on the break. Think about it, takes away the single biggest luck factor in 9 ball. Who gets more shots on the 1 after the break. Also, each game starts with a "move". Promise the best player wins in this format, not the best breaker.

I have always thought this to be a great idea. The one drawback, however, is that the person playing a push out has a slight disadvantage, so players would not try to make a ball on the break, and the pace of the game would suffer a bit.

 

[trustyrusty]

you guys are getting serious about this no luck thing....

should we take away the desperation hail mary in football (if caught for the TD), the last second half courter in basketball, a triple play in baseball, the 100 yard hole out in golf (or a hole in one), or any type of sports occurance that is against the odds?

I like getting a few rolls and beating a better player personally, but apparently since I shouldn't beat them, it shouldn't count...

 

[FLICKit]

My friends and I have actually played a lot of what we called "Grady's Rules" 10-ball. Call shots, call safeties, BIH behind the line. Also, the ten has to be the last ball on the table, if it goes early, it spots and you keep shooting.The beautiful part about the game is you have to call a shot or safe, even on kicks. It forces you to try to achieve a specific result when kicking. You never, never, hit and hope, which heightens the defensive and strategic elements of the game. Still, the best way to win is to break and run out. I think it's the most technically perfect rotation game I've seen.

Ah! Refreshing... A post that contains experience in the subject at hand. Many people arguing/debating/discussing in this thread (myself included) have never even tried the variation or variations being offered. So they're only guessing at the ramifications and nuances that are entailed... Sometimes things are alot different when you actually give it a try. (Pitfall, try it with a pre-conceived notion of how it's gonna be. Play it, and magically it matches your pre-conceived notion 100%. Usually (except in rare cases) just signifies one wasn't open-minded enough to learn anything).

The old, don't knock it til you've tried it adage comes to mind...

Of course, the negative ones, usually try to extremify things to the level of absurdity, and act as if that proves their point...