No respect for players that won't gamble?

Shawn Armstrong said:
Will do - let me know. I got me one of them there OB-1 shafts like beard boy, and I'm growing some facial hair. In two months, I will be unstoppable.
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I really liked the hit of his OB-1, I got a lot of action on the ball. Ive been trying to grow a grade 8 stash for about 15 years now, Im almost ready.

Whenever you're free, let me know. Im sure your schedule is a lot more full than mine is. I have a cat to look after and you have little humans!

We can play on the gold crown with the fancy balls from Tee Vee.

I played Beasley (the knuckle guy from my team) this week 7-4 and somehow won. Marty was even in for half of Chris' action. :eek:
 
shawn armstrong said:
i've been reading a bunch of posts here from people, claiming that money players are better than tournament players. Some have gone so far as to call out or question player's "heart" because they won't gamble. they are wrong!!!

the europeans don't seem to like to gamble. That's their choice. I do not feel that a player needs to gamble to prove they have heart. Ralf souquet hasn't proven time and time again that he has heart? So he doesn't gamble. When he wins something like a us open, it's not like he played the weekly tourney at roy's bar. There are many players that do not gamble in the sport. It doesn't make them less of a player, or soft. To speculate on how a "gambler" would do versus a tournament player is futile. "i agree 100%"

this brings me back to the classic comeback in the poolhall. You play a guy and hammer him in a tournament or league match, and after you wipe the floor with him, he says "play me the same race for $100". When you decline, the guy says "yeah, 'cause you know you can't beat me for money". Perhaps the reason is that i know i can win, but i really don't feel like dealing with him or his friends. "i won't play those guys either, just walk away. There are jerks everywhere."

gambling is for people that want to locksmith. No one gets into a money game they think they can't win. You only have to beat one opponent, in a certain number of sets. To discredit tournament play is not looking at the entire picture. How many opponents do tournament players have to beat to become champions? "i have found that to be true in some cases, but for the most part, i have found players just want a fair game."

discrediting tournament champions and heralding the gamblers is why this sport is going nowhere. "partially true, but not the whole story!!!"

tiger woods is the #1 player on the tour in golf. Let's say he didn't gamble. "tiger may not gamble, but millions gamble on golf every day. It doesn't seem to hurt image of golf."

would anyone in golf make the exact same statement there? "well. Tiger is a good tournament player, but he doesn't gamble, so i don't consider him the best". Horse pucky. Some people do not gamble because of personal belief. You say it's different making a shot with $10k on the line. What's the difference in payouts between 1st and 2nd at a us open? Dcc? Or, how about sheer pride at a mosconi cup? Pressure is pressure. "agree 100%!!"

ralf, jasmin, thorsten - they will not choke. This ain't little league, or short stops. These players are world class. "it isn't little league, but i have seen all of them miss easy shots and choke!!!"
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.........................................just my $02.......................................
 
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poolpro...Agreed, and it's also important to note that MOST of the top American pros do not receive ANY kind of sponsorship money. Most "sponsorship" here is relegated to, "Here, play with my cue"! Those who are lucky enough to get any significant expense money are few, and far between. It's ridiculously expensive to be a professional pool player (or even an exhibition player or instructor...like I am).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

poolpro said:
I just wanted to say one more thing. To people who think that these top pro players aren't playing for anything. I strongly disagree!

Think for a minute what they have on the line. Their tour status, possible endorsements ( $$) , reputaion as a player, in addition to any prize money they may or may not win. Add to that that it is being recorded to be on record forever.

These players have invested way more ( airfare, hotel, travel expenses, entry fees, oh yeah. and the many years of dedication! ) BEFORE the match even begins. You want to say that someone who will put up say $500 or more is putting MORE on the line?

Yes I know that they get some endorsement money will cover a lot of expenses, but they had to earn that first too.


Jw
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Tourney play and matching up are two different games. Nobody can have their game discredited for choosing not to gamble, or likewise for not playing in tourneys. I have been the guy woofing after a tourney many times, telling a guy that he doesn't have the heart to gamble with me, but it's just an attempt to get a game. I don't really think that someone's a worse player, or has no heart, just because they won't gamble. In fact, I have more respect for the guys that don't let themselves get pressured into a game they don't want to play.

I think many of these comments you're referencing come from gamblers woofing to stir up emotions and get some action, and most of the rest come from people trying to compare the skill levels of an action player and a tourney player. It's just not always comparable. I know some terrific tourney players who play like C players if the bet gets over $100 a game. I also know some A players who play like B players in virtually every tourney they enter. I also know many players who play well in any format.
 
Ralf Souquet and I discussed this once and this is what he said to me:

He said that in his opinion they are completely different but equal. He said that if you gamble you haven't lost until you are out of money so depending on how much money you have you can probably afford to spend some time learning your opponent's strengths and weaknesses and adjust as needed. He then said that in a tournament you don't get time to adjust to an opponent. You don't get a few sets to warm up you have to just bring your A-game right away against every opponent without any stalling. And sometimes you have to do this several times a day against different opponents. So for this reason he feels that tournaments are harder but also respects the pressure of big money pool.

I want to add to it that in a professional tournament you have to deal with a lot of different styles and attitudes from someone stoic like Ralf to someone animated like Strickland.
 
Jason Robichaud said:
I think Ralf is doing all he can to make the game a profession. problem is he has all the gamblers holding him back. No big sponsor will ever get behind a bunch of gamblers...
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Very well spoken. The funniest thing is pool players that bet think they are gamblers.lol
 
Scott Lee said:
poolpro...Agreed, and it's also important to note that MOST of the top American pros do not receive ANY kind of sponsorship money. Most "sponsorship" here is relegated to, "Here, play with my cue"! Those who are lucky enough to get any significant expense money are few, and far between. It's ridiculously expensive to be a professional pool player (or even an exhibition player or instructor...like I am).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Many of the top players don't deserve sponsors.

Just take a look at people in this game. Buy one of those criminal background services and start at the top and work your way down...Or just talk to some of them. You will soon understand why real money side steps around pool. I wouldn't fund pool without some serious changes to who is invited, and I love this game more than anyone.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
I've been reading a bunch of posts here from people, claiming that money players are better than tournament players. Some have gone so far as to call out or question player's "heart" because they won't gamble.

Links, please, I haven't read these, I don't think.

This brings me back to the classic comeback in the poolhall. You play a guy and hammer him in a tournament or league match, and after you wipe the floor with him, he says "play me the same race for $100". When you decline, the guy says "yeah, 'cause you know you can't beat me for money". Perhaps the reason is that I know I can win, but I really don't feel like dealing with him or his friends.
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And, perhaps, you can't win.
 
I've never understood why a lot of people don't respect tournament players. I respect the hell out of them. Not that I have anything against gamblers, but I respect tourny players more. You have to beat champion after champion to win a major event. Guys like Souquet and Archer have my utmost respect, to be able to consistently play at such a high level and win so many majors over a long period of time is really amazing. And when it's all said and done it's their names that will be enshrined in the HOF, there will be no doubt of their greatness. With gamblers all you have is stories from yesteryear about who spotted who the 7 and drilled him for big cash, they're stories that get embellished and most people don't really know what happened. Open up an almanac or encyclopedia brittanica and you'll see a list of world pool champions: Souquet, Strickland, Archer, etc. forever immortalized.
 
Personally, I have always bet as many $$$ as I could afford at Pool or Golf. However, I don't remember ever dis-respecting someone for NOT gambling.

If they don't want to gamble, that is their business, and once I find that out, they can still become a friend, (and I have lots of them who don't gamble) but I will not badger them, or belittle them for their choice.

That being said, I do harbor much disdain for " locksmith's" and "short shot artists".... who are always trying to shoot a toothpick, at a lumber yard. However, that is a very common occurance, especially in a pool room.

I prefer gambling over tournament play for one reason only. Tournaments must have time constraints, and usually consist of short races. They quite often do not necessarily determine the best player...they just determine who to give the money and the trophy to.

The other thing re; tourn. play is, I don't like being inactive, and sitting around for 90% of the time, for 2-3 days waiting to play for 30-40 minutes...occasionally.

Besides, I am blessed with the attention span of a gnat, and also being, possibly the world's slowest starter.
I have simply learned, to much prefer gambling over tournament play. But thats just me.

Dick
 
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Gambling

This is a great thread

I think gambling is a completely different side of pool than tournament play. Some people are better tournament players and some are better money players. Only the best are great at both.

The problem with gamblers is they don't practice. Even Johnny Archer said one time that he quit practicing becasue he was in action all the time. Ironically when he was practicing, doing his great drills, he was a much better player.

Personally, I play in several leagues and I prefer hanging out with my league player buddies over the gamblers I know. It's a lot more fun, and the gamblers are always broke wanting me to loan them a cue to play with, cash, cigarettes, rides, all of the above.

Peace

Ted
 
Hm

Interesting question and interesting answers.
Alot of the disrespect you see on the forums and in various tournament rooms are indeed the cash players woofing and trying to stir action due to their belief that they tournament players cant handle it when they are actually staring down the cash.


Now I fully support both sides of the coin because let's face it, if you gamble [locksmith nit whatever you prefer the term for 'pool
gambling] you enjoy it and you can make change and you can even pay bills as long as you have the time and dime. If you are a tournament player and enjoy the match up of "Let's run through this hardest competition we can as fast as possible" then that's fine too. Something that alot of people in the pool world forget is that we are all here because we enjoy the game. No one can tell me exactly why i enjoy tournaments or gambling in this game.

Though I can say from personal experience a lot of players that are -NOT- pro can play extremly well in a tournament where it's "buy in for 20 bucks and get a chance to play through 32 players for 1000" or whatever. I have see one person in particular win this tournament 3 weeks running, turn around and get into a race to 21 and get demolished for 100-500 and a thousand. Does this mean this person is a horrible player??? Nope, just means that he prefers the tournament style.



So yeah pretty much we need to stop bashing people both ways. Because are we now down to playing the 'pool police' telling people how they have to play to have fun or be considered great?? No. That's the nature of our game that we all supposedly 'love' we play for our reasons and they are ours alone. So remember the next time you bash someone for not gambling that there's always a chance that guy could smash you in a set for a couple of grand. And remember the next time you see that guy that just won 6g in action that signed into the tournament sheet could blast through the winner's bracket without a struggle. They are two beasts, and to tame both of them is true greatness. But to be exceptional at one or the other is still great in and of itself due to the pressure on every player.


Sorry for the long drawn out rant. Just my .02
 
I never really understood why some folks think non-gamblers haven't got any heart.

Personally, it's not the lack of heart that keeps me sidelined; it's the lack of biscuits.
 
Tx Poolnut

I think its just a way for people to bark at someone to get under thier skin...


tournament players and gamblers are two different types of creatures....

Most gamblers, are locksmiths or guys who figure in the longrun they can run down the guy when he gets lazy or w/e after a while.....

Tourny players who guys who excel at tournys come out guns blazing!!! and play that 1 set top notch and then only have to worry about the next guy....

I have a friend who gets sick of gambling cuz, unlike most pool players, he has a "real" job @ 6am and cant spend all nite adjusting after every set, just to try to win 100$ or w/e........

And I've been in the same situation too, you finally get a game with someone and after the first set, they wanna adjust, cuz I come out guns blazing and smoke them....
 
in tournaments you play for a small entry fee trying to win a big prize. plus most of your entry fee goes to the handful of the best players who dominate most tournaments. the lesser players are really just paying for an opportunity to play with better players or play in competition.
cash players can match up with anyone in the world and if they are good enough to make the game right can walk away the winner. if not they are just like the bad tournament players, they donate for the privilege of playing.

both can have heart and both can play under pressure depending on the individual.
 
On a realistic scale - How much can a gambler make in a year? Please don't state a particular match that happens once in a great while. On average I would guess maybe 30K if lucky? I just don't know the number but I can't imagine living on less and hustling.
 
Dawgie said:
On a realistic scale - How much can a gambler make in a year? Please don't state a particular match that happens once in a great while. On average I would guess maybe 30K if lucky? I just don't know the number but I can't imagine living on less and hustling.
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I know one guy who has made real close to that number just at the Derby each of the last few years. There is some money out there to be made. The tricky part is not blowing the dough back on a bad game or a leak.

My opinion, like some others in this thread, is that tournament pool and and action are just two different animals. IMO tournaments are "harder" in that you must perform on demand with very little room for mistakes or adjustment. That said I do not find tournament pool as interesting or exciting as action pool (obviously).

Anyone who seriously demeans someone for not gambling is just being silly. A little good natured woofing is one thing but to take it any further just shows the character of the person casting aspersions. The flip side of this is people who look down on the action players. IMO they are no better than the loud mouth at the pool room talking trash. They just seem to feel they are superior and it makes me laugh.

I hate to break it to everyone but barring some form of strong organization or crazy billionaire, pro tournament pool in the U.S. is what it is and will never get any bigger. The only way to gain any sort of main stream audience for the game is through focus on the same thing that was the focus of both driving forces in the boom times of the industry.

What were those boom times? Right after two major movies about action pool were released. I am not holding my breath for another movie on the level of The Hustler or The Color Of Money but no one can convince me that people are not more interested in two players locked in action, winner take all, living by their wits, guile and skill than two guys in golf shirts playing a race to 7.

The beauty of the game is that almost all of the elite players possess the capability to compete in any format. Ralf is put up as an example and there is no doubt in my mind that he could match up with anyone if he so chooses. The beauty of action is that it is possible for a player not on the same level to make a game with a monster player and if they can perform up to their potential win the day. Chris Bartram will tell you he doesn't play tournaments well or even like them but he made a game with two U.S. Open Champions and won them both. Without action things like that would never happen....and what fun would that be?
 
I don't gamble and don't see it as a big deal at all. I have gambled and won, but just didn't get anything out of it. I've also gambled and lost and still nothing. Just because I don't care about betting doesn't mean I look down on the gamblers either. I actually love watching those matches and get way more out of that than if I were playing.
 
Tournaments and gambling are just different. They require different skill sets.

A guy that says he sucks in tournaments and only plays well for the cash might not be lying because half of the skill in gambling on pool is matching up.
 
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