No Wonder The U.S Sucks Against World

[pmac666]

I'm actually well liked by most who know me in the pool world. I've been around for a while. I'm an oldster.

On this forum, I am a known entity, whereas people like you post anonymously and take potshots at others. :grin-square:

Being a known entity is being a minority on AzBilliards, but anonymous members, again, like yourself, are in the majority. For some, it's fun to attack others with mean-spirited words while hiding behind the security of their computer monitor. There's a word for that, but I'll let you think of what that might be.

theres the ignorance again lol...... poolworld? the USA isnt the world and never was my oh not so anonymous friend! will i find JAM in a telephone book? somehow i doubt it lol
btw where did i attack you? i only correct your opinion that "every" euro wants to live over there, thats not attacking lol always the same, stating some nonsense and then playing the poor victim when corrected, im feeling with you! :thumbup:

 

[JAM]

People who have never been there or lived there may never know the answer.

I lived in Taipei, Taiwan for three years during the early 70s. You couldn't find a pool table anywhere except for the American military bases and in some American military clubs. The Taiwanese played snooker. I lived upstairs from a snooker hall. I won the island-wide championships in 1975 and 1976. It seems strange how they are now some of the best players in the world.

I lived and played pool in Angeles City in the Philippines during the time Efren was the top Filipino player there and before he came to the USA. He was about 25 at the time. Jose Parica was the Philippine champion at that time. I lived there for three years. Trying to compare the pool culture there to anywhere is impossible.

Pool is a cheap sport there and it costs nothing to watch. There are pool tables everywhere. The economy there is such that there are thousands and thousands of young kids with nothing to do except for things that are free. You see them in every pool place everywhere. Those that are fortunate to have someone give them a chance to play and learn take the opportunity. They don't have other stuff to do. To compare the economy, I had a gardener who had a college degree in some sort of business administration. He worked about eight hours-a-day for me, one day a week. He could make more money being a gardener than he could in a job with his degree. I paid him $4 for the day. I had two full-time, live-in maids and paid a total salary of $60 a month for the both of them. If kids learn they can make money doing something, they go for it if they have the opportunity. They aren't lazy asses like today's American kids.

I lived in Japan for four years and they have some good players, but their youth is like ours and are more interested in doing something else. Pool doesn't excite them, the same way it doesn't excite the youth in the USA. They are too modernized and Westernized.

Pool is considered to be a "sport" in the Philippines...in the USA it is considered a "game".

Best post in the thread!

 

[elvicash]

A country of 320 million people, facing off against every other country in the world totaling over 7 billion people. That gives a 95% edge to the world as far as talent pool.

Of course you are right but I will point out the Philippines is doing alright on the pool stage.

My thought is not enough youth come into our game and not enough of the players we do have are motivated to give it the 100% day in day out effort that a champion would have to do and that is the difference in my mind. If high quality pool had a payoff to attract elite American talent then more of our elite talent would play pool.

 

[skip100]

I'm getting whiplash here. On one hand we hear the US players suck because they are not miserable and dirt poor and therefore don't have fire in their bellies. On the other hand people say US players suck because they don't have a well-funded national training system that teaches fundamentals and ships them around the world to play the best of the best. It certainly can't be both of these things.

 

[Oze147]

I'm getting whiplash here. On one hand we hear the US players suck because they are not miserable and dirt poor and therefore don't have fire in their bellies. On the other hand people say US players suck because they don't have a well-funded national training system that teaches fundamentals and ships them around the world to play the best of the best. It certainly can't be both of these things.

Why not?
There are many roads to success.

Look at football (or soccer).
Brazilians always have been the parade example for players who come from a poor background, playing football on the streets, with football as their only hope to get out of the slums and having a better life.
Europeans have a better background with big clubs, big academies, the best coaches and a lot of money to form talents to superstars.
Both ways obviously work.

Transferred to the pool situation in the US I think neither one of this situations really fit.

Yes, there are a lot of poor people, whose life is hard, but still you can`t compare their situation to the Phillipines. There is a difference between being poor in the US or Europe and being poor in a third world country.

Yes, there are good coaches in the US and there are good pool halls with top equipment, but it can`t be compared with the support and facilities some European players can use.

 

[louieatienza]

Of course you are right but I will point out the Philippines is doing alright on the pool stage.

My thought is not enough youth come into our game and not enough of the players we do have are motivated to give it the 100% day in day out effort that a champion would have to do and that is the difference in my mind. If high quality pool had a payoff to attract elite American talent then more of our elite talent would play pool.

The same exact scenario is going on in bowling. The best bowler the past decade is Australian, and bowls 2-handed amazingly well. Even young kids today learn it, and a few pros converted. There's many Euro and Asia tournaments, and very few American players have the means to travel like that.

I think we've all heard the adage of a great player and misspent youth. Not many poolhalls to begin with, and out of those left not many are open early. Plus how many kids today play hockey from school to sneak I to a pool hall? How many father's today would be looked down upon if their son spent all day in a pool hall? And the ones with tables at home are not exposed to the environment until later in life.

Probably 1/6 of the American population participate in pool in some form, but I wonder how many of that group are actually exposed to the competitive side. You can't even buy a decent factory cue at the place I play.

It has to be an effort among everyone involved. Manufacturers and vendors going to pool halls. Pros not playing at a pool hall looking like they came off the beach. And sponsors having these pros interact better and more with fans... anything to make the sport more marketable.

Just a few thoughts. There's more, but It would be a start....

 

[trinacria]

Whatever pool needs is up to debate. And if it were to get the limelight it will be for a short period of time. That's just how the world works now. It will never be a major sport, a mid level sport or a sport in general. It will have a period of highs, than disappear. Some hipster in Brooklyn will make it hip and cool, all the followers will follow, they will notice that it's a game that can't be mastered in one lifetime and lose interest. Sorry, pool needs Apa leagues to stay alive, that's the best case scenario. Pro pool, men and women living off it, is non existent. It's a part time gig at best. Time to get real and see shit for what it is.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[spartan]

I wouldnt go THAT far but I would say Czech women are definitely TOP 5:wink: You cant go wrong here :grin::grin::grin:

Bingo. My vote goes to Central and East Europe countries. :wink:

 

[JRusso]

But the lack of action, excitement, and entertainment value has killed pool, thanks to the pool purists who enjoy watching robotic tournament soldiers playing mum pool. Therein lies the problem why pool is circling the drain in America. In sum, pool needs more gambling, not less.

I would have to agree. Humans long for the forbidden fruit. Clean up the games image, and you lose the edgy cast of characters that I believe draws people to the game. At least people in this country. Although it seems safe to say that in the Philippines where the game is far more popular with the general population, gambling is hand in hand with pool. Maybe this is proof of concept?
It seems commonly accepted that the largest resurgence in pools popularity in the US came in on the coat tails of the Color Of Money. Probably not a coincidence that the movie was filled with scene after scene depicting gambling, hustling and scamming. The non pool playing public was not scared off of pool and out of pool halls... they wanted in.

 

[Tin Man]

no problem

Those that speculate the advantages of life in the US are a reason there aren't as many competitive pool players have a good point. But since this is a natural consequence of our environment I fail to see where the judgmental and critical attitudes and accusations of laziness from some come in. For the title of this thread to be "US Sucks against the world" is very negative and childish.

I myself am one of many thousands of talented pool players in the US that isn't currently playing competitively. I have 3 children and a full time job. I play every other Saturday right now. I'd like to play more, but if I did that it would be at the expense of caring for my children. That would be a much bigger character flaw than the 'laziness' of not playing competitively.

There is nothing wrong with feeding yourself. In fact, I would hope that in the future all cultures have these resources. I know for my children given the choice between being great pool players and growing up above the poverty level I would choose for them to be comfortable, and I hope that someday everyone's family can have access to the same life that we do. If that means that top pool suffers that is an easy trade off to make.

And there are many exceptions to this theory that hard work comes from poverty. The world has many examples of people that are driven to the highest levels due for other reasons than physical needs. The US has many people in our history that were relentlessly driven and innovative that have made big changes in our world. With so many rewarding avenues it isn't a character flaw that our talent would devote itself to other fronts besides pool. In fact, it would be a bigger issue if we weren't devoting our resources to fighting diseases, environmental and social concerns, and instead were making sure we had pool bragging rights.

Bottom line, I don't see a problem here. I have this nagging idea that we're all part of the same team by sharing this world and that we are all doing our best to meet our needs and fulfill our purpose and hopefully help each other along the way.

 

[Mikkes]

I think the most reason, why the most US-players are not "good enough" any more is the lack of competition. Most of them only play tournaments in the US and when you check the results, most of the time, you can only see the top 5 (SVB, Morris, Dechaine, Strickland, Archer, etc. ) as the winner of these bigger tournaments. They don´t travel to Europe or Asia to play against the topdogs in pool. There are not enough US-players playing the world championchips. In contrast the Europeans playing the very high competitive Eurotour. There are more than 10 tournaments across Europe and it is very hard to win one of this tournaments because of the high amount of worldclass players who are playing this event.

 

[Maniac]

Those that speculate the advantages of life in the US are a reason there aren't as many competitive pool players have a good point. But since this is a natural consequence of our environment I fail to see where the judgmental and critical attitudes and accusations of laziness from some come in. For the title of this thread to be "US Sucks against the world" is very negative and childish.

I myself am one of many thousands of talented pool players in the US that isn't currently playing competitively. I have 3 children and a full time job. I play every other Saturday right now. I'd like to play more, but if I did that it would be at the expense of caring for my children. That would be a much bigger character flaw than the 'laziness' of not playing competitively.

There is nothing wrong with feeding yourself. In fact, I would hope that in the future all cultures have these resources. I know for my children given the choice between being great pool players and growing up above the poverty level I would choose for them to be comfortable, and I hope that someday everyone's family can have access to the same life that we do. If that means that top pool suffers that is an easy trade off to make.

And there are many exceptions to this theory that hard work comes from poverty. The world has many examples of people that are driven to the highest levels due for other reasons than physical needs. The US has many people in our history that were relentlessly driven and innovative that have made big changes in our world. With so many rewarding avenues it isn't a character flaw that our talent would devote itself to other fronts besides pool. In fact, it would be a bigger issue if we weren't devoting our resources to fighting diseases, environmental and social concerns, and instead were making sure we had pool bragging rights.

Bottom line, I don't see a problem here. I have this nagging idea that we're all part of the same team by sharing this world and that we are all doing our best to meet our needs and fulfill our purpose and hopefully help each other along the way.

Isn't it against the Forum Rules to use common sense and reasoning on a thread??? :thumbup:

Well spoken words, Tin!

Maniac

 

[mikepage]

I think the most reason, why the most US-players are not "good enough" any more is the lack of competition. Most of them only play tournaments in the US [... ...]

There are so many unsupported premises in this thread, including the title, that it is worth reviewing some of them.

I'll comment first on the poverty issue, and then in a second post I'll address the issue of which countries produce more or fewer good pool players. Then we can see whether there is an issue that needs to be explained.

I plot infant mortality here --deaths in the first year of life per 1000 births--but life expectancy would have worked just as well and told the same story.

 

[mikepage]

I'll comment first on the poverty issue, and then in a second post I'll address the issue of which countries produce more or fewer good pool players. Then we can see whether there is an issue that needs to be explained.

Now let's investigate the premise in the thread title: that the US sucks against the world. Of course countries with more people are in general going to have more good pool players. I'm going to define a "good pool player" as a player with Fargo Rating over 740.

Here is something that will surprise people

(1) Add the population of USA and Canada --You get 345 Million
(2) Add the population of the countries listed below --you get 347 Million
(basically Europe without Russia & Ukraine)

United States, Canada

population: 345 Million


Poland, UnitedKingdom, Germany, Netherlands, Finland, Austria, Greece, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Portugal, Malta, Estonia, Norway, Denmark, Serbia, Hungary, Czech, Belgium

population: 347 Million

NOW - we have an apples-to-apples comparison

How many good pool players in each group?

It is remarkably the same

61 in the North American Group
62 in the European Group

Think about what this means. So many things we try to explain actually do not require explanation. There is no evidence here that requires delving into the effects of playing on 7-foot tables, whether people travel, the role of proper coaching, the effect of having an organized tour, the role of gambling, whether there are government subsidies, and so forth. I'm not saying those things don't matter. Maybe they do. But people who discuss them often start with some premise that is just not supported by the evidence.

The fact is, North America and Western/Central Europe produce good pool players at the same rate.

 

[mikepage]

[...]
The fact is, North America and Western/Central Europe produce good pool players at the same rate.

And if you want something that DOES cry out for explanation, here it is

 

[Maxx]

Wow, big difference! How do other Asian countries compare?

 

[louieatienza]

There are so many unsupported premises in this thread, including the title, that it is worth reviewing some of them.

I'll comment first on the poverty issue, and then in a second post I'll address the issue of which countries produce more or fewer good pool players. Then we can see whether there is an issue that needs to be explained.

I plot infant mortality here --deaths in the first year of life per 1000 births--but life expectancy would have worked just as well and told the same story.

Well, that doesn't take into account that many foreigners live in the Philippines because it is as dirt cheap as it is dirt poor. It's very interesting to see bamboo homes with straw or tin roofs, and a computer at the window. But unlike some other countries, if you don't have money, they don't treat you in the hospital. That said, family life is more traditional, where the patriarchs/matriarchs are taken care of by the younger, later in life. Also poor doesn't necessarily mean that they can't self-sustain, as many live in farms in the provinces.

But basically, like someone else said, Filipinos look up to Parica, Reyes, Bustamante, Orcollo... and then Pacquaio. Not so many pros coming out of DR - because look at all the baseball players they produce and how much they make! Same thing with soccer and Brazil. Or Russia and ice dancing. Or China and ping-pong. Or Kenya and marathon runners. Or Japan and... karaoke?:grin-square: Point is, different cultures latch on to different things.

 

[louieatienza]

Now let's investigate the premise in the thread title: that the US sucks against the world. Of course countries with more people are in general going to have more good pool players. I'm going to define a "good pool player" as a player with Fargo Rating over 740.

Here is something that will surprise people

(1) Add the population of USA and Canada --You get 345 Million
(2) Add the population of the countries listed below --you get 347 Million
(basically Europe without Russia & Ukraine)

United States, Canada

population: 345 Million


Poland, UnitedKingdom, Germany, Netherlands, Finland, Austria, Greece, Spain, Switzerland, Sweden, Portugal, Malta, Estonia, Norway, Denmark, Serbia, Hungary, Czech, Belgium

population: 347 Million

NOW - we have an apples-to-apples comparison

How many good pool players in each group?

It is remarkably the same

61 in the North American Group
62 in the European Group

Think about what this means. So many things we try to explain actually do not require explanation. There is no evidence here that requires delving into the effects of playing on 7-foot tables, whether people travel, the role of proper coaching, the effect of having an organized tour, the role of gambling, whether there are government subsidies, and so forth. I'm not saying those things don't matter. Maybe they do. But people who discuss them often start with some premise that is just not supported by the evidence.

The fact is, North America and Western/Central Europe produce good pool players at the same rate.

What is the combined FargoRate of the NA group as opposed to the Euros?

 

[louieatienza]

And if you want something that DOES cry out for explanation, here it is

Does that coincide with the number of Southwest and Cognoscenti cues going to Taiwan?!

 

[mikepage]

Wow, big difference! How do other Asian countries compare?

I'm a little reluctant to say because our coverage is not as good in many Asian countries. I think we have a pretty good handle on 740+ players in North America and Europe and are a lot more variable in Asian countries.

That means if an Asian country like Taiwan DOES get a large number, we know the reality is it is at least that high. But when an Asian country doesn't get a high number, we don't know how much of that is good players off our radar. I will say that Philippines--at 23-- is higher than North America and Europe and that we most certainly underestimate it.

My guess, though, is that Taiwan dominates. Taiwan has fewer people than does Canada, half the population of Spain, not much more than a quarter the
population of Germany, about the population of New York State, and less than the population of Texas or California.

Taiwan's success is the real story, imo.

But we've got to ditch the pathetic misplaced parochial pride to even start to see it...