NOW is the time to Open a Billiard Room

Why does everyone think in terms of leasing or renting as opposed to buying?

When you lease, you don't have to come up with a large down payment. And you are not stuck with a mortgage if things don't pan out. A good long term lease (with options to renew) can be a very good way to go in opening a new room. Typically buying a building entails a much larger commitment in terms of dollar outlay, and a much bigger nut to crack each month. Remember when you buy, you must now pay property taxes and insurance. Two large additional costs.
 
Pool hall, strip club or bar in most places you or a representative will have to appear before a city council or some form of zoning board. Invariably there will be at least one member vehemently opposed to the business opening (board politics), there may also be strong opposition from the religious community. Then there are construction permits, alcohol licenses, food preparation permits,etc.

You could go broke before you ever open.

Edit: But now very well could be the time if you have a very good plan.
 
Pool hall, strip club or bar in most places you or a representative will have to appear before a city council or some form of zoning board. Invariably there will be at least one member vehemently opposed to the business opening (board politics), there may also be strong opposition from the religious community. Then there are construction permits, alcohol licenses, food preparation permits,etc.

You could go broke before you ever open.

You MUST get all your licenses BEFORE you break ground (begin building) a new room! That's the first thing on the agenda after you agree on the terms of the lease. Any good lease is contingent upon you getting your necessary licenses.
 
You MUST get all your licenses BEFORE you break ground (begin building) a new room! That's the first thing on the agenda after you agree on the terms of the lease. Any good lease is contingent upon you getting your necessary licenses.

Yep and I think a whole lot depends on location also. Someone just posted a thread about a family type pool hall closing in Massachusetts (very high taxes there). Unlike Jed and granny right now might not be the best time to try opening a place in Beverly Hills. New York the same. Small town america though could work good. Especially a bar. With the economy in the tank bars usually do well.
 
Nobel-Length Novella Batman!

I've actually been toying with this idea since in our city of 100,000 people there is only 1 hall, and 1 sports-bar with tables. I've even gone so far as to find a downtown vacant lot of suitable size, and one large building that is likewise vacant. I also have connections with a lot of the promoters around the area, and am active within the local pool scene.

However, my thoughts lean more toward building my own structure, two-storey, with the pool-hall on the second floor and a strip mall below to help cover the costs of the building itself. As others have said though, finding the cash to cover that much of an outlay is very hard these days.

My experience playing all over the world has shown me what I like to see, and what draws customers. Unfortunately, in North America things tend to lean toward the great equipment/poor facility side which I honestly could not own, although I see why people skimp on the rest and have better equipment (I suspect the owners are players and spend the bulk of their investment on what matters most to them).

As far as multiple avenues to draw customers, as a player I'd rather be somewhere where the music isn't thrasher or techno (including bands if they share the stage, so-to-speak), and the ambiance leans toward gentlemen and not the savage bar-room banger that pool has a reputation of belonging to. I'd enjoy owning the only publicly available carom table in Southern Alberta, even if only a handful of people even understood what it was for. I'd also love to see dart lanes (as there are two entire spots (and not the two I mentioned earlier) here for people.

But it's not only pool, billiards, and darts I would like to offer; I'd also like to see 3 or 4 star food. Try saying Bruschetta here and you'd either be scorned or sent off to one of 3 fancy restaurants. I think this and a true billiards parlour should go hand in hand. You don't need to play pocket billiards to enjoy good food or cognac, but as an owner, all of these bring revenue.

Sadly though, these things don't come together outside of large cities, at least not here in Canada. I somewhat envy America where at least the entire game/sport has somewhat of a following, but I find it disappointing that you walk into one of these halls and find a menu of chips/crisps and perhaps some microwaved 7-11 heart-attacks. Beautiful tables mind you, but an asphalt-tiled floor, some big picture windows cooking players in the relentless sun, and a teenager behind the makeshift bar with her friends ogling her outfit. On those nice tables, we have some people who look like they had never seen a collared shirt or a shower, smashing balls in on a bar-box thinking betting is the only way to get a, "good game".

I do apologize to anyone that is offended, but this was invented as a pursuit for gentlemen, not trash. I don't expect people to wear a vest to play, but a modicum of respect for the equipment and the other patrons would be nice.

I don't expect to earn a living from table time alone. In fact, the players I would like to see wouldn't make me much of a living from alcohol either since they often don't drink while playing seriously. That's why I would like to see darts, a full kitchen, and a lounge. I would enjoy bringing some class back to our pursuit but I wonder if the reputation is so damaged now that it could even be restored.

I would also love to be able to garner 750K that it might be possible. But right now, even the downstairs strip mall would be empty. And sadly, while it is cheaper to play a good game of 3-cushion, snooker, or pool than it is to vacation, I wonder if the people capable of affording such a trip in better times would see a billiards parlour as a place to be harassed or as an evening out.

PS: I know; I'm long-winded.
 
Yep and I think a whole lot depends on location also. Someone just posted a thread about a family type pool hall closing in Massachusetts (very high taxes there). Unlike Jed and granny right now might not be the best time to try opening a place in Beverly Hills. New York the same. Small town america though could work good. Especially a bar. With the economy in the tank bars usually do well.

Well, if that's the case...then please explain the closing of 161 bars in Vegas in the last 12 months?
 
Well, if that's the case...then please explain the closing of 161 bars in Vegas in the last 12 months?


161 bars closed in the past 6 month is Vegas, that's all? I would expect that a lot would be closing because everyone is staying home and NOT GOING TO VEGAS.

Vegas only has about 600,000 residents and well over 2,000 (estimate) bars in it. That's only 300 people per bar. They should be closer to about 200 bars tops with an average of 3,000 people per bar.

Maybe, um, that's why they are closing left and right.
 
161 bars closed in the past 6 month is Vegas, that's all? I would expect that a lot would be closing because everyone is staying home and NOT GOING TO VEGAS.

Vegas only has about 600,000 residents and well over 2,000 (estimate) bars in it. That's only 300 people per bar. They should be closer to about 200 bars tops with an average of 3,000 people per bar.

Maybe, um, that's why they are closing left and right.

During the great depression, Vegas also reported their highest incomes...due to the bad econemy...with so many out of work and all. My point in my line of questions...is that if pool rooms today are struggling to stay in business...because people are just not spending like they use to...and new opening restaurants being about number one on the list of failed businesses in the first 12 months....if you personally haven't taken advantage of your own advice and went out an opened a pool room of your own...with all the great deals available today with landlords begging for tennents....are you in fact a landlord looking for a new tennent...or maybe you work in the commercial leasing industry or something. Because I work in this "pool room/bar" industry daily...and have for the last 27 years, and have owned 3 different pool rooms....and see the struggle for business owners to stay in business on a daily basis.

Even with free rent for a year...you still have to have customers coming in spending on a regular basis to pay all the rest of the bills....not just the rent, as there's more to this kind of business....than being able to pay the "Rent"

Glen
 
Not all leases are created equal

Yes, it's a buyers market, but it's still a crappy economy. Good luck opening and creating a profitable pool hall...

But if you do, and if you lease, do not forget to address these key things:

- avoid a triple net lease where you are responsible for everything
- try to have the landlord be responsible for structural maintenance and repair (including 'basic' plumbing, electrical, roof, asphalt, etc.)
- get a gazillion renewal options
- try to avoid being responsible for prop taxes
- make it assignable to a qualified operator, as compared to a sub-lease
- rent escalators are standard, negotiate small ones. If you get one tied to the CPI, etc., make sure there's a cap (like 3-5% every 5 years)
- negotiate a decent early termination fee, don't get tied to being responsible for all remaining months' rent on the current term.
 
I think the only way to open a room now would be to own the building. They might get a great deal and discount for 10 years but then what. You build a great business, build value and a landlord comes in and doubles or triples rent. You are stuck trying to relocate, give the extra money straight from profits (maybe leaving with nothing) or selling... $5000 for all was posted!. Say the room cost $250,000 to open and now you get $5000! That is $245,000 loss over 10 years or $24,000 yr. That cheap $3200 rent works out to $5200. Now that you just worked 10 years to lose $245,000 you can pay an additional $3-6000 a month. Add that to the increased insurance, utilities, fewer people playing etc...

Basically you are buying a job that gives you a chance to make $100,000 or so for 5 years (first 5 you have to pay for equipment, build customers etc). After that, you will drop to $$40-70,000 depending on rent and then less with the increased operational cost.
 
Yes, it's a buyers market, but it's still a crappy economy. Good luck opening and creating a profitable pool hall...

But if you do, and if you lease, do not forget to address these key things:

- avoid a triple net lease where you are responsible for everything
- try to have the landlord be responsible for structural maintenance and repair (including 'basic' plumbing, electrical, roof, asphalt, etc.)
- get a gazillion renewal options
- try to avoid being responsible for prop taxes
- make it assignable to a qualified operator, as compared to a sub-lease
- rent escalators are standard, negotiate small ones. If you get one tied to the CPI, etc., make sure there's a cap (like 3-5% every 5 years)
- negotiate a decent early termination fee, don't get tied to being responsible for all remaining months' rent on the current term.

Excellent advice here from someone what has been there. Typically a tenant is responsible for everything that goes on inside the walls (plumbing, electrical etc.) and the landlord is responsible for everything outside the walls (heating and cooling equipment etc.). On my first lease I got stuck making the repairs to the ancient air conditioning units on the roof. This was in Bakersfield with 100 degree days all summer long. I never forgot that lesson. $$$$$

A tenant should NEVER have to pay for property taxes (or building insurance)! Also look out for CAC (common area charges) which are typical in a mall or shopping center. They can easily add 15-20% to your rent every month, and be buried in the lease! Bottom line, have a qualified person look over the lease before you sign it.

I recently read Will documents that were created by a high priced attorney. I will not go into the details but suffice to say there were glaring errors in the mathematical calculations and several other vague declarations that could be open to different interpretations. This Will was asking to be contested. I pointed these out to the elderly person who showed it to me and it has now been corrected. I'm not an attorney either (I'd like to be getting that $550-600 an hour this guy is paid), but my reading comprehension is pretty good.
 
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Well, if that's the case...then please explain the closing of 161 bars in Vegas in the last 12 months?

That is my point. Big cities and tourist destinations are getting killed right now. Small towns are doing better but people are still out of work or worrying about being out of work. Those people tend to eat, drink and to seek entertainment closer to home, unless it's even worse than they are saying and people just aren't leaving home.

Of course a lot depends on local and state taxes, licensing,etc.
Some rural counties in Texas have outlandish fees for a liquor licence.
 
You MUST get all your licenses BEFORE you break ground (begin building) a new room! That's the first thing on the agenda after you agree on the terms of the lease. Any good lease is contingent upon you getting your necessary licenses.

I actually sat down in individual meetings with the chief of police, with the mayor, with one of the city commissioners, with the city attorney, with the city auditor...

My motivation for doing this was my need to get the liquor laws changed to be able to proceed. But in retrospect I think some of this is a good idea regardless...

Unless of course you plan to open a hangout for drug dealers and other such characters, in which case it's probably a bad idea...
 
I actually sat down in individual meetings with the chief of police, with the mayor, with one of the city commissioners, with the city attorney, with the city auditor...

My motivation for doing this was my need to get the liquor laws changed to be able to proceed. But in retrospect I think some of this is a good idea regardless...

Unless of course you plan to open a hangout for drug dealers and other such characters, in which case it's probably a bad idea...

Mike, you also did a lot of homework on this kind of business before taking that jump, unlike 99% of those that are thinking about opening a pool room today.

I firmly believe that a pool room without liquor, is like buying a first class ticket on the Titanic on its maiden voyage.

Glen
 
During the great depression, Vegas also reported their highest incomes...due to the bad econemy...with so many out of work and all. My point in my line of questions...is that if pool rooms today are struggling to stay in business...because people are just not spending like they use to...and new opening restaurants being about number one on the list of failed businesses in the first 12 months....if you personally haven't taken advantage of your own advice and went out an opened a pool room of your own...with all the great deals available today with landlords begging for tennents....are you in fact a landlord looking for a new tennent...or maybe you work in the commercial leasing industry or something. Because I work in this "pool room/bar" industry daily...and have for the last 27 years, and have owned 3 different pool rooms....and see the struggle for business owners to stay in business on a daily basis.

Even with free rent for a year...you still have to have customers coming in spending on a regular basis to pay all the rest of the bills....not just the rent, as there's more to this kind of business....than being able to pay the "Rent"

Glen

KIng ,
I love ya , buddy , but here you're comparing apples to chunks of coal. During the Depression , Vegas as we think of it didn't exist . 'Our' Vegas , with glitzy casinos & resorts , was the post-war creation of Bugsy Seigal . The few resort hotels before that were just a blip on the radar , and eclipsed by such 'giants' as Galveston & Hot Springs.
The rest of the advice in the post was dead-on , though.
 
I wish I wasn't in Hawaii. I don't think a 4th pool hall would do much here on the island...and the costs are exponentially higher here.
 
I agree, now is the time....Funny thing is, I had been looking at places to lease for about 3 months before I realized why "people" kept renting the good ones. When the real estate person asked me what I was planning on opening I would say, "a pool hall/ arcade." Oops...Can you tell me why?

They thought that I like so many of the other pool halls, would be a front for some mom and pop gambling shop.

Take my advise when talking to the real estate guy don't mention pool hall or arcade games..I missed two good locations because of that.
 
KIng ,
I love ya , buddy , but here you're comparing apples to chunks of coal. During the Depression , Vegas as we think of it didn't exist . 'Our' Vegas , with glitzy casinos & resorts , was the post-war creation of Bugsy Seigal . The few resort hotels before that were just a blip on the radar , and eclipsed by such 'giants' as Galveston & Hot Springs.
The rest of the advice in the post was dead-on , though.

And Newport, KY., which may have had the biggest casinos of all back then. In the 30's Vegas had a few small casinos downtown. There was no "strip"!
 
I agree, now is the time....Funny thing is, I had been looking at places to lease for about 3 months before I realized why "people" kept renting the good ones. When the real estate person asked me what I was planning on opening I would say, "a pool hall/ arcade." Oops...Can you tell me why?

They thought that I like so many of the other pool halls, would be a front for some mom and pop gambling shop.

Take my advise when talking to the real estate guy don't mention pool hall or arcade games..I missed two good locations because of that.

The word I always use is "Sports Bar". They understand that.
 
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