Ohhhhhh - So the cue's supposed to do the work...

[JAMSGOLF]

I've been playing pool periodically for about 17 years now...I've been playing golf for about 14 years (up north in SD and now NY, so with winters, it's only been about 6 years of actual playing...which is why I opened an indoor golf facility).

I am a "lazy" 6 in APA (long story, but I should probably be a 7). I'm a low single digit handicap in golf. I taught myself both pool and golf...meaning I've never taken an "official" lesson for either. I've learned from reading books, watching videos/players and TONS of practice!

I opened up this post the way I did so you have an idea of how many years worth of work and practice I have put into these "sports".

The other day, I got to thinking about the golf swing. While I'm not an instructor per se, I do have the ability to see someone's swing and 97% of the time, I can see exactly what they're doing wrong, so I know what I'm talking about with the golf swing. One of the things I tell the beginning golfer is they don't have to "hit" the golf ball (or strike the ball or swing at the ball)...you simply swing the club "effortlessly" and the golf ball just happens to get in the way of the swing...pretty simple principle (no, not my original idea - just something I've "picked up" over the years).

Essentially it's akin to a "bullwhip" or the snapping of a kitchen towel. You can generate a ton of power by allowing the whip or towel to do most of the work...don't believe me? Try snapping your significant other "lightly" with a kitchen towel while they're doing the dishes and see what kind of reaction you get...I bet you get tears in their eyes and you have kitchen duty for a month (or more). It's amazing how even a light snap of a towel can generate that much pain...or more to the point "power"!

After thinking more about this principle, I thought "Hmmmm...I wonder if pool is the same way?" Now, remember, I'm not a bad shot in pool and I know how to play...I've been playing pool longer than golf for God's sake!

Well, after 17 years of making shot after shot by "hitting" the cueball with the correct amount of force and location on the cueball (most of the time), I've called it QUITS!!! Well...I'm quitting "hitting"...

I feel like such a boob! For 17 years, I've been hitting the cueball rather than stroking the cue...for those of you who don't know the difference, the only thing I can say is once you feel the difference between "hitting" the cueball and "stroking" the cue and allowing the cueball to "get in the way" of your stroke, your eyes will do this: :yikes:

It was an awakening plain and simple! I can now "feel" the differences in the hits of cues...I believe I can feel the subtle nuances between different cues, shafts and tips. I can allow the cue to do the work, rather than me doing the work...I don't try to push my cue into doing something it isn't capable of doing...I've had to "lighten" my grip pressure on the cue in order to do this (the same type of pressure that I use on the golf grip...).

I know I'm not imagining this sensation, nor do I think I'm crazy (at least that was the final vote beween me, myself and I )...

For those of you have felt this sensation, please chime in...For those of you who haven't felt this, feel free to comment how much you think I'm overly tired from a long work-week...or just plain loony!

Jason

 

[Neil]

................

 

[JAMSGOLF]

I got really excited writing this post, that I should have been more clear with regards to the golf swing...it's not so much the full-swing as it is the putting stroke (it works for both, but the putting stroke is easier to compare).

I would liken it to a "pendulum" motion with the putter. All you're doing is loading up the pendulum, by pulling the putter (cue) back and allowing the weight of the pendulum (putter/cue) move it in a forward direction...

With the putter, the top point of the pendulum is the sternum (with a short putter - with a long putter, it's the top of the handle, which is buried in the sternum)...with the pool cue it's essentially the elbow...

 

["Popeye"]

I agree with you. I've loosened my grip up a bit over the last six months to maintain a true natural stroke. In the past, I think I was over working the shots and it took me longer to get into gear since I had to achieve that correct feeling when I stroked the ball. I also think a tighter grip leads to steering the cue and applying unnecessary English. I hope you find that it works well for you going toward. However, if you take a break from the game, like it did for the summer, it may result in reverting back to the stroke you've used religiously in the past. I just started playing again this week, and knew something was off, and this was it. BTW, I think I read that Stevie Moore has also loosened up his grip for the same reasons.
Cheers, Mark

 

[JAMSGOLF]

Yeah, I've discovered lately that even though I thought I was a pretty good communicator, sometimes I have a hard time speaking the same language as someone else...even when we're both speaking English!

Yeah, Neil, ummmm I think my neighbors think I'm burning a million watt candle over here with the amount of "light" that just came on...

Better late than never...:embarrassed2:

This is what we have been saying on here for years. To not "hit" the cue ball, but to go "through" the cb. Sometimes, words just can't really convey the meaning and the "light" just doesn't go on for some reason. Then, when it does.........

Glad you now know what that phrase means.:smile: A whole new world is now opened up to you. You will be amazed at how much spin you can get staying close to center on the cb.

 

[trustyrusty]

I am the definition of a "feel" player in golf. I could hit a greenside chip with a 60 degree wedge or a 7 iron.....I go by what I "SEE" in the shot. If I picture a high flop softly landing and rolling out a couple of feet; the 60 it is. If I see a little bump and run gliding towards to hole like a putt; hello 7 iron. Of course, anything in between could be what I see as being the right shot.

When I got back into playing pool somewhat competitively, I equated it to my golf game immediately. Not sure if you play your short game shots this way, but if you think of a chip or putt's speed by tossing or rolling the ball and using that same judge of speed except using a club to toss or roll the ball...this works GREAT for cueball control as well (getting shape).

Glad to hear you've found IT. Now, like golf, find YOUR rhythm (no two are exactly the same - picture Freddy Couples vs. Nick Price), and a good pre-shot routine (even if super simple - just has to be consistant), and watch your game SOAR!!!

 

[Scott Lee]

JAMSGOLF...Hmmm...let the CUE do the work? Wow, I wish I would have thought of that. LOL Oh wait, I did...38+ years ago. Now I didn't 'invent' it, but I've known about it (and taught it to students) for decades. Glad the light "went on" for you, finally! Welcome to the club!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I've been playing pool periodically for about 17 years now...I've been playing golf for about 14 years (up north in SD and now NY, so with winters, it's only been about 6 years of actual playing...which is why I opened an indoor golf facility).

I am a "lazy" 6 in APA (long story, but I should probably be a 7). I'm a low single digit handicap in golf. I taught myself both pool and golf...meaning I've never taken an "official" lesson for either. I've learned from reading books, watching videos/players and TONS of practice!

I opened up this post the way I did so you have an idea of how many years worth of work and practice I have put into these "sports".

The other day, I got to thinking about the golf swing. While I'm not an instructor per se, I do have the ability to see someone's swing and 97% of the time, I can see exactly what they're doing wrong, so I know what I'm talking about with the golf swing. One of the things I tell the beginning golfer is they don't have to "hit" the golf ball (or strike the ball or swing at the ball)...you simply swing the club "effortlessly" and the golf ball just happens to get in the way of the swing...pretty simple principle (no, not my original idea - just something I've "picked up" over the years).

Essentially it's akin to a "bullwhip" or the snapping of a kitchen towel. You can generate a ton of power by allowing the whip or towel to do most of the work...don't believe me? Try snapping your significant other "lightly" with a kitchen towel while they're doing the dishes and see what kind of reaction you get...I bet you get tears in their eyes and you have kitchen duty for a month (or more). It's amazing how even a light snap of a towel can generate that much pain...or more to the point "power"!

After thinking more about this principle, I thought "Hmmmm...I wonder if pool is the same way?" Now, remember, I'm not a bad shot in pool and I know how to play...I've been playing pool longer than golf for God's sake!

Well, after 17 years of making shot after shot by "hitting" the cueball with the correct amount of force and location on the cueball (most of the time), I've called it QUITS!!! Well...I'm quitting "hitting"...

I feel like such a boob! For 17 years, I've been hitting the cueball rather than stroking the cue...for those of you who don't know the difference, the only thing I can say is once you feel the difference between "hitting" the cueball and "stroking" the cue and allowing the cueball to "get in the way" of your stroke, your eyes will do this: :yikes:

It was an awakening plain and simple! I can now "feel" the differences in the hits of cues...I believe I can feel the subtle nuances between different cues, shafts and tips. I can allow the cue to do the work, rather than me doing the work...I don't try to push my cue into doing something it isn't capable of doing...I've had to "lighten" my grip pressure on the cue in order to do this (the same type of pressure that I use on the golf grip...).

I know I'm not imagining this sensation, nor do I think I'm crazy (at least that was the final vote beween me, myself and I )...

For those of you have felt this sensation, please chime in...For those of you who haven't felt this, feel free to comment how much you think I'm overly tired from a long work-week...or just plain loony!

Jason

 

[C.Milian]

This means you'll have to change everything about your game, sucks 4 u. But it'll be worth it if you can do it.

 

[JAMSGOLF]

JAMSGOLF...Hmmm...let the CUE do the work? Wow, I wish I would have thought of that. LOL Oh wait, I did...38+ years ago. Now I didn't 'invent' it, but I've known about it (and taught it to students) for decades. Glad the light "went on" for you, finally! Welcome to the club!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott...I've always believed I wasn't stupid...but I never professed to be the "quickest" student of the game!

It was one of those things where I thought I "had it"...and again, I could always pocket balls, which allowed me to win games. But as you know, the feeling/stroke I'm trying to describe isn't even in the same league...

I hope you don't think I was trying to take credit for some new idea I had...I was only stating that my dumbass took 17 years to find the "light-switch"!!!

This means you'll have to change everything about your game, sucks 4 u. But it'll be worth it if you can do it.

You're right...it will be an adjustment. However, I know I'm up for the challenge!!!

I am the definition of a "feel" player in golf. I could hit a greenside chip with a 60 degree wedge or a 7 iron.....I go by what I "SEE" in the shot...

I am the definition of a "self-made golfer". I know a lot of great teachers instruct students to utilize the differing clubs in their bags for flop vs. bump-and-run... I've tried it in the past, but I couldn't "feel" the shots like I wanted. Instead, I do what Tiger did for years when he was in his utmost prime...I use my 60 degree for almost everything around the greens (56 once in awhile as it has a higher bounce). I adjust my stance (open or closed) and either lay the clubface open or hood it closed to achieve the launch angle necessary to land the golf ball where I want to land it...so I guess I would say I'm a "feel" player around the greens too...

I have a hard time trying to show people this method because I too have the ability to just "see" the clubface angle and "see" where the ball is going to land and "feel" just how hard to hit the shot - and some people just don't have the ability to visualize that...so, I show everyone who asks me about the short game the method you described... It's like what our dads used to say to us "Do as I say...not as I do..."!

Again, this is why I like pool and golf...there are so many similarities! To me, the green is nothing more than a big pool table!

Jason

 

[SCCues]

Stroke vs Hit

I know what you mean by stroke through the CB, but I have the worst time doing it consistently. My bad habit of holding my cue too tight seems to creep back into my game especially when I get under pressure playing an equal or better player than myself. Ive watched Efren on video and in person many times and he has such a light grip on his cue that it almost comes out of his hand. I also heard that he plays with a heavier cue than most players so it's easier to let the cue do the work since the extra weight will put more on the cue ball with the same stroke speed as with a lighter cue. I need to work on this some more!

James

 

[3andstop]

Yes indeed. It's that natural follow through with a light touch on the butt of the cue. This shot is a good example of how much easier it is to pocket the ball when you allow the cue to do the work. The ball seems to fight to stay on line to the pocket. Sometime....... even after you loose the cue, and you get that feeling it wasn't hit pure, when you stroke through with a light touch, the ball seems to track perfectly.

CueTable Help

 

[C.Milian]

A well built cue with good wood is an amazing thing if you have acquired the ability to use it properly . Sometimes when I hit the ball good (very rarely and accidentally) I can feel the entire cue. Incredible feeling.

 

[ShootingArts]

taking things to another level

Many years ago I experiemented almost as much as Earl, at least when it came to the cue itself. I played with cues from over 24 ounces down to 12 ounces, even briefly with one that weighed several pounds. While there is magic in letting the cue do the work, there is greater magic in taking the cue weight out of the equation.

Hardest thing I ever did in pool was trying to play with a 12 ounce snooker cue. First, the skinny shaft was low deflection before low deflection was cool back in the mid-eighties and I had to learn how to aim many shots all over again. The second thing was the stick did almost none of the work, try driving a twenty penny nail with a tack hammer!

It took several months but I learned that taking total control was a step above giving the control to the cue stick, at least for me. After playing with the 12 ounce cue for awhile I was much better at keeping control of a standard cue also. It brought touch to a whole new level.

Not sure where most should stop at but considering the speed of current cloth and rails and that almost everyone hits the balls too hard it would seem to make sense to go to lighter cues. I also believe that ultimately you gain more from learning to control yourself and the cue than you gain from surrendering control to the cue and gravity.

No question that it is easier to let the cue do the work. However having walked both paths I have a great deal of question that it is the better path for someone devoted to the game.

Hu

 

[JAMSGOLF]

...No question that it is easier to let the cue do the work. However having walked both paths I have a great deal of question that it is the better path for someone devoted to the game.

Hu

Hu,

Excellent point...there is a synergy that now exists between my cue, and what I'm willing it to do...sounds metaphysical, I know...

My mind sees what needs to be done...which in turn informs my arm what needs to be done...which in turn informs my cue what needs to be done...which in turn tells the cueball what needs to be done...which in turn tells the object ball what needs to be done...which in turn tells my opponent to "pay up"...(okay kidding about that last one...kind of...).

It's when we see and believe in that perfect "harmony" in the chain of reactions that results in the expected outcome!

So, you're very correct...the cue doesn't do ALL the work...I'm just now realizing that it had more of a role in the desired outcome than I had previously allowed it...

Thanks Hu!!!

Jason

 

[ShootingArts]

the "right" cue

Hu,

Excellent point...there is a synergy that now exists between my cue, and what I'm willing it to do...sounds metaphysical, I know...

My mind sees what needs to be done...which in turn informs my arm what needs to be done...which in turn informs my cue what needs to be done...which in turn tells the cueball what needs to be done...which in turn tells the object ball what needs to be done...which in turn tells my opponent to "pay up"...(okay kidding about that last one...kind of...).

It's when we see and believe in that perfect "harmony" in the chain of reactions that results in the expected outcome!

So, you're very correct...the cue doesn't do ALL the work...I'm just now realizing that it had more of a role in the desired outcome than I had previously allowed it...

Thanks Hu!!!

Jason

I suspect this is true of many other objects too but the right cue, the right pistol, the right rifle or shotgun, seems like an extension of our body. Despite not having shot a shotgun in years and rarely getting to shoot it an over and under I was given was as fast as a striking snake getting on target. It seemed almost unsporting to hunt with it hitting was so easy. The right pool cue in some respects should be like that shotgun. Most people find that right cue to be 18-20 ounces with a balance point 19-20 inches from the outer edge of the butt cap.

There is another "right" however that is not the most comfortable to perform with. I built myself a 38Super race pistol to shoot steel plates. The focus was on accuracy and speedy handling ignoring other considerations. I have to admit that with the chosen load it is borderline unpleasant to shoot, not nearly the joy the .45 is. The .45 has a soft rolling recoil that lets me ride the recoil from target to target and a run is a nice smooth flow from start to finish. The 38Super recoils with a sharp snap and sticks on the target, I have to drag it from target to target instead of riding the recoil and flowing from target to target almost effortlessly like the .45. Despite being far less fun to shoot and feeling unnatural the 38 consistently shaved over 10% off the time of the same run made with the 45.

The difference between the 38 and the 45 is much the same difference as the difference between the 12 ounce cue and an 19 ounce cue. The twelve ounce cue took much of the pure pleasure out of the game but compensated for that with improved function. That isn't to say that the twelve ounce cue functions better than a nineteen ounce cue, the total unit of myself and the twelve had the potential to function better than the total unit of myself and the nineteen. I had to work harder with the twelve to get the same results on shots I could make with either but the pay off was that I could now make shots with the twelve that I couldn't make with the nineteen or to be strictly accurate, extreme touch shots were now much higher percentage, making shots that were impractical to try with the nineteen into playable shots in competition using the twelve ounce cue. It seems counter-intuitive but easier and better feeling isn't always the best in competition.

I'm not putting in the hours with cues or pistols these days and for purely pleasant play I'll grab the heavier cue or the .45 every time but the Super still lives here for race day and I'm gathering pieces for a superlight two piece cue. When winning is what matters most I want the light stick for pool and the 38 for pistol competitions.

Hu

 

[3kushn]

Many years ago I experiemented almost as much as Earl, at least when it came to the cue itself. I played with cues from over 24 ounces down to 12 ounces, even briefly with one that weighed several pounds. While there is magic in letting the cue do the work, there is greater magic in taking the cue weight out of the equation.

Hardest thing I ever did in pool was trying to play with a 12 ounce snooker cue. First, the skinny shaft was low deflection before low deflection was cool back in the mid-eighties and I had to learn how to aim many shots all over again. The second thing was the stick did almost none of the work, try driving a twenty penny nail with a tack hammer!

It took several months but I learned that taking total control was a step above giving the control to the cue stick, at least for me. After playing with the 12 ounce cue for awhile I was much better at keeping control of a standard cue also. It brought touch to a whole new level.

Not sure where most should stop at but considering the speed of current cloth and rails and that almost everyone hits the balls too hard it would seem to make sense to go to lighter cues. I also believe that ultimately you gain more from learning to control yourself and the cue than you gain from surrendering control to the cue and gravity.

No question that it is easier to let the cue do the work. However having walked both paths I have a great deal of question that it is the better path for someone devoted to the game.

Hu

A while back I handed my 14oz cue to Mark Wilson. He simply commented that a light cue can allow you to apply more spin but the trade off is control. A heavier cue is easier to deliver a straight line. Then he just handed it back.

JAMSGOLF, here's a thread in the instructors forum that may interest you.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=249866

 

[JAMSGOLF]

A while back I handed my 14oz cue to Mark Wilson. He simply commented that a light cue can allow you to apply more spin but the trade off is control. A heavier cue is easier to deliver a straight line. Then he just handed it back.

JAMSGOLF, here's a thread in the instructors forum that may interest you.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=249866

I didn't see that thread. I just got done reading it. Thanks for pointing it out...I mean "THANKS ALOT!" :angry: Now I have one more thing to worry about!!!

Obviously, I'm kidding...

I'm not sure I agree with it yet (not to argue with those who know more than I), but I'm willing to give it a shot during some practice sessions.

 

[trustyrusty]

had to share one more little thing about golf that may relate...

My grandpa used to take me to the local course that had an area designated for hitting shags. Best thing I ever learned was on a cold Oct afternoon...he handed me his Haig Ultra 7 iron and told me to hit a couple 130 yards. I quickly said, "but I hit the 7 iron 170" (I was 14 and knew it all of course). He said sure, when you aim way right and pull the ball (stupid baseball - lol). He was right, I struck the ball really well, but did compensate for a pull. Anyway, his super unforgiving iron (compared to my TA 845s) felt harsh when not hit DEAD CENTER (especially on this cold day). I found that tempo was the cause for the stinging I would feel if I didn't catch it pure.

After finding what tempo made for more consistent contact. He said ok...you got it, NOW take a full swing with the same tempo. BINGO, pured and 170 again, without compensating for a pull (point and shoot). If I happen to be playing POOL much more poorly than normal, I find that seems to be the issue as well (I'm either rushing a little or slowing down and being somewhat tentative). I may not be some champion pool player, but I have noticed that those champions DO have the same tempo (fast or slow), and when they don't, they don't play as well either....

keep us informed on your changes...and pay attn. to what tempo works well for you and try to keep it consistent (I think it is a real KEY to great play as well).

 

[Jaden]

it's very similar to the feeilng in golf

I've been playing pool periodically for about 17 years now...I've been playing golf for about 14 years (up north in SD and now NY, so with winters, it's only been about 6 years of actual playing...which is why I opened an indoor golf facility).

I am a "lazy" 6 in APA (long story, but I should probably be a 7). I'm a low single digit handicap in golf. I taught myself both pool and golf...meaning I've never taken an "official" lesson for either. I've learned from reading books, watching videos/players and TONS of practice!

I opened up this post the way I did so you have an idea of how many years worth of work and practice I have put into these "sports".

The other day, I got to thinking about the golf swing. While I'm not an instructor per se, I do have the ability to see someone's swing and 97% of the time, I can see exactly what they're doing wrong, so I know what I'm talking about with the golf swing. One of the things I tell the beginning golfer is they don't have to "hit" the golf ball (or strike the ball or swing at the ball)...you simply swing the club "effortlessly" and the golf ball just happens to get in the way of the swing...pretty simple principle (no, not my original idea - just something I've "picked up" over the years).

Essentially it's akin to a "bullwhip" or the snapping of a kitchen towel. You can generate a ton of power by allowing the whip or towel to do most of the work...don't believe me? Try snapping your significant other "lightly" with a kitchen towel while they're doing the dishes and see what kind of reaction you get...I bet you get tears in their eyes and you have kitchen duty for a month (or more). It's amazing how even a light snap of a towel can generate that much pain...or more to the point "power"!

After thinking more about this principle, I thought "Hmmmm...I wonder if pool is the same way?" Now, remember, I'm not a bad shot in pool and I know how to play...I've been playing pool longer than golf for God's sake!

Well, after 17 years of making shot after shot by "hitting" the cueball with the correct amount of force and location on the cueball (most of the time), I've called it QUITS!!! Well...I'm quitting "hitting"...

I feel like such a boob! For 17 years, I've been hitting the cueball rather than stroking the cue...for those of you who don't know the difference, the only thing I can say is once you feel the difference between "hitting" the cueball and "stroking" the cue and allowing the cueball to "get in the way" of your stroke, your eyes will do this: :yikes:

It was an awakening plain and simple! I can now "feel" the differences in the hits of cues...I believe I can feel the subtle nuances between different cues, shafts and tips. I can allow the cue to do the work, rather than me doing the work...I don't try to push my cue into doing something it isn't capable of doing...I've had to "lighten" my grip pressure on the cue in order to do this (the same type of pressure that I use on the golf grip...).

I know I'm not imagining this sensation, nor do I think I'm crazy (at least that was the final vote beween me, myself and I )...

For those of you have felt this sensation, please chime in...For those of you who haven't felt this, feel free to comment how much you think I'm overly tired from a long work-week...or just plain loony!

Jason

When people have asked me what the single best piece of advice in playing pool I could give, I've always said the same thing.

Let the cue stick do the work....

there has been many attempts to make this automatic... The slip stroke is one.

The key is to do just what I said let the cue do the work don't try to force the cue through the CB...

Once you do it and realize it, it's exactly like you said, an AHA!!!! moment.

And as I said that's the single best piece of advice you can get for improving your game...

Jaden

 

[ShootingArts]

I'm in good company!

A while back I handed my 14oz cue to Mark Wilson. He simply commented that a light cue can allow you to apply more spin but the trade off is control. A heavier cue is easier to deliver a straight line. Then he just handed it back.

JAMSGOLF, here's a thread in the instructors forum that may interest you.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=249866

I absolutely agree with Mark Wilson about control being tougher with a light cue, so much tougher that I have thought of marketing a superlight cue purely as a training aid. I think you can apply more spin with the light cue too but for me the benefit was much more finely controlled spin and greater speed control.

The light stick doesn't give you much help delivering it in a straight line but it doesn't harm your ability to deliver it in a straight line either. When you can deliver a featherweight cue in a straight line you can deliver any cue in a straight line.

Hu