OK, 9-Ball Gurus, How Would You Play This?

kyle said:
SJM great thread this is the kind of thread I like myself. One of the other forums has a "how would you play this" thread. How did you attach the wei as a Jpeg(?) I tried with my earlier response but I'm missing something.
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Kyle, the procedure to embed a Wei Table in a post was shared by Colin Colenso in the following thread. Read this whole post before you click on the link.

http://azbilliards.com/vbulletin/up...read.php?t=7304

In that thread, the pertinent posts are all in the range of #37 through #43, and if you read them, you should be in business.

Warning: if you save the file as a bitmap, you won't be successful. Save your file in paintbrush as a Jpeg and you'll succeed.
 
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9 ball is all about lines, if you can see the right lines then you will have more margin for error and therefore mess up position less. The best way to play position on the 6 is to play the 5 as per my previous post and run the white of the cushion down the table in a straight line. This makes it almost impossible to finish straight on the 6 (which would be a disaster). If you play onto the 6 from the 5 of two cushions or any other way you have a chance of finishing straight on the 6 and also have less margin for error. It doesn't matter too much how you play on the 4 as long as you leave the right angle on the 5 as discussed but for my money the safest way to play position on the 4 is in opposite center to the 5, this leaves little work to do with the cb, and the less work the cb has to do the more times you'll get position.
 
Iteresting SJM, although I suspect he might have just pointed that out to suggest something else to you, I doubt every pro would move the 8 as it is not very difficult to get from the 8 to 9 from where it currently lies (prob about 30% of the table would be adequate position on the 8).

Do you remember any racks where one of the high balls is tied up, its always interesting to see how people break a ball out as there's usually several ways to break it out but one may offer a great chance of success.
 
Fred Agnir said:
IMO, the only thing difficult about this rack (other than execution, hehe), is getting from the 3 to the 4 for an angle on the 5. The 9-ball makes the 5 to the 6 for the angle on 7 a one-sided proposition (cueball above the 5-ball, in the layout).

It seems to me that you could be anywhere within 30 degrees on the 7 ball to get out, so, IMO, the 7-ball position isn't as crucial.


Fred
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Thats what I was thinking. I dont like where the 9 ball is because if you get the angle with the stop shot on the 4 ball you would have the 9 pretty close to the natural path of the cue ball using right hand siding to come 2 rails out for shape on the 6. If you can get the 5 with only a little angle you can stroke it in with tops and a little left siding to come off the rail and straight out for the 6 with a little angle. Either way when looking at the out it was from the 5 to the 6 that I suddenly got thinking.

I think the shape on the 6 is where you win this game or lose it. The 7/8/9 are all easy if you took ball in hand at the 6.

PS: Oh, and I would not move the 8. Sure it looks risk free but I have shot enough "risk free" shots to have them burn me in the ass too many times. It is makeable where it is. One thing I dont like about moving the 8 is if you hit it real square you can actually leave the cueball frozen to the head rail, and now you are playing a long distance shot with tops for the 2 that you have to control so you still have the angle on the 3 to roll onto the 4 ball shape. Sure, you can give yourself angle on the 1 ball and put top left hand siding to make the 8 move and let the cueball follow it through, but then with the 8 moving towards the 7 rail, the 7 already there, and now the cueball taking the same path to that side you have to be correct on the weight. Plus, even then with a good shot you are still probably not more then a foot off the head rail.

I dont like moving the 8 there. I wonder if Keith would enlighten us, maybe some other pro calibre players (WRU Johnny!), if 5 of em came here and all said they move the 8 maybe I should rethink some of my strats =)
 
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Celtic said:
Thats what I was thinking. I dont like where the 9 ball is because if you get the angle with the stop shot on the 4 ball you would have the 9 pretty close to the natural path of the cue ball using right hand siding to come 2 rails out for shape on the 6. If you can get the 5 with only a little angle you can stroke it in with tops and a little left siding to come off the rail and straight out for the 6 with a little angle. Either way when looking at the out it was from the 5 to the 6 that I suddenly got thinking.

I think the shape on the 6 is where you win this game or lose it. The 7/8/9 are all easy if you took ball in hand at the 6.

PS: Oh, and I would not move the 8. Sure it looks risk free but I have shot enough "risk free" shots to have them burn me in the ass too many times. It is makeable where it is. One thing I dont like about moving the 8 is if you hit it real square you can actually leave the cueball frozen to the head rail, and now you are playing a long distance shot with tops for the 2 that you have to control so you still have the angle on the 3 to roll onto the 4 ball shape. Sure, you can give yourself angle on the 1 ball and put top left hand siding to make the 8 move and let the cueball follow it through, but then with the 8 moving towards the 7 rail, the 7 already there, and now the cueball taking the same path to that side you have to be correct on the weight. Plus, even then with a good shot you are still probably not more then a foot off the head rail.

I dont like moving the 8 there. I wonder if Keith would enlighten us, maybe some other pro calibre players (WRU Johnny!), if 5 of em came here and all said they move the 8 maybe I should rethink some of my strats =)
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Thanks for your comments. In the end, Celtic, the answer doesn't much matter. The point of this thread was to show a position that was interesting and allow forum members to analyze it and have some fun doing so. As we all have educated opinions here, everyone's views have value, and I don't see any particular need to establish some of us as correct and some of us as wrong. All I've done in this thread is show a position that I, as it turns out, played your way, and related the comments made to me by a pro that holds several major titles. What I remember is trying, after my match was completed, to move the eight constructively several times, and I batted 1.000 in simplifying the layout while maintaining good shape onto the two. Having said that, though, it doesn't make it right.

Interestingly enough, I'm sure you'd agree that a "B" player should bump out the eight. Not many "B" players would get out of this rack. The real point here is to help those not likely to consider the possibility of bumping out the eight to at least consider it, and to analyze the percentages as they relate to their respective games in deciding what to do.

By the way, Celtic, I think you're on to something good. Wouldn't it be nice if some of the pros on this forum participated in these "How would you play this?" threads.
 
It would be good if a "pro" offered his/her opinion and also would be interesting if you shared how you actually ran out sjm?! :-)

With regards to moving the black, tempting but as its been pointed out small things can go wrong with this. Very unlikely if played well but white on the rail is a possibility which could result in no control over the 2 which could result in the white on the rail (depending on the angle) on the 3, and since 3 to 4 is an important shot and a little tricky is it really worth the risk? Like I said the black is basically over the hole and playable from about 30% of the table and that for most players is not a hard shot (whether straight or lots of angle on the 7).

Personally I think it was pointed out to help SJM think of other shots and not neccessarily the right shot.

Seems to be working well though, lets have some more and encourage keith etc to get involved - maybe even a keith shot and then he can tell us why he played it the way he did!

:-)
 
TheOne said:
With regards to moving the black, tempting but as its been pointed out small things can go wrong with this. :-)
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The One,
I think any good straight pool player could move the 8 away from the rail, and make sure of a good shot on the 2 (away from the rail), 100% of the time (I did it 10 out of 10 and I'm only an average straight pool player). Most good straight pool players could predict the path of the 8 well enough to make a break shot out of the 8 a fair percentage of the time (if the rack area was on that end of the table). My opinion is, anyone who ends up with the cue ball on the bottom rail or who ends up snookered on the 2 needs to play more straight pool. JMO :) :)

P.S. - You are very right that small things can go wrong, but in this rack I think some small things are more likely to go wrong with the 6, 7, 8, 9 ending sequence than with moving the 8 ball (spoken like a true wimpy straight pool player).
 
Willie your right and I wouldn't rule out moving the 8 on that reason alone, but whats the reward?

The 8 is over the whole and 30% of the table offers decent position so why move it?

If a player is capable of sinking the 1 and moving the 8 while keeping control of the cb, surely he's good enough to play position on the 8 that is practicaly over the hole?

Risk v Reward is something that can be appied to many things in life but is also a good rule of thumb for billiards.
 
I'm with Fred on this one. The 3 is the key shot. It determines your angle on the 4. Wrong angle on the 4, and you have a tough time going from the 5 to the 6. Once you have a good angle on the 4, the rest of the run is straight forward. If you're afraid of the 7 to the 8, you probably don't play very much 9-ball. The 6,7,8 layout is classic 9-ball, in my opinion.

The key shot doesn't have to be the hardest shot, in my opinion. The key shot is the smartest shot that enables the runout.
 
I'm not sure why people are saying to move the 8? I always thought that the way to play 9-ball, was to never move a ball unless it has to be. The 8 certainly isn't in trouble, and it is positioned so that it is easy to get shape on the 9.
 
Ha ha...I should have read the whole thread before opening my yap. If Ginky says to move the 8...how can you argue with that?

I liked the comment about straight pool players reducing risk, and 9-ballers just shooting them where they lie. I think that's bang on. Straight pool teaches you to move them balls around a little. In 9-ball, unless a ball is frozen to the rail just before the tip of the side pocket, I don't move it.
 
but thats the point, moving the 8 doesn't reduce the risk, it increases it!
 
Yeah...I'm confused as to why Ginky would move that ball. You could end up moving it to more of the middle of the end rail, which would be much worse. Or the cueball could go off the 8, and hide along the side rail putting the 7 between it and the 2. But Ginky is a world class player...and I'm not.
 
TheOne said:
but thats the point, moving the 8 doesn't reduce the risk, it increases it!
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The One,
Just to clarify, you move the 8 to increase the chance of a runout, and to decrease the risk of fouling up when moving from the 7 to the 8 to the 9. There should be zero risk (for a medium skill level straight pool player) of putting the 8 in a worse position, and there should be zero risk of snookering yourself on the 2. Just hit the top of the 8 ball and watch the cue ball float towards the side rail (the side of the 2 ball) and watch the 8 ball leave the head rail. Simple and risk free. Remember though that Ginky is a highly accomplished straight pool player - what's easy and risk free for him might not be for us.

P.S. - at the risk of annoying SJM, the posters that are seeking professional input should realize that there are a number of pro's that respect SJM's opinion, and would defer to his thoughts on ball position/safety play/risk reduction. I've been told by my instructor (a top pro) to "pay attention to SJM, you might learn something." He's a student of the game (my highest compliment).
 
Getting to the nine is not the issue the position of the 8 ball would require a better shot from the 7 (perfect angle/straight in) there's a good chance you could end up over the 8 or on the short side.
 
Personally, I like the 8 where it is. I find that shot makeable from a pretty large area. A little inside english and you can spin it in from almost straight in. I guess it really depends on your shot preference. The main thing is to get out whatever way works best for you.
 
Williebetmore said:
P.S. - at the risk of annoying SJM, the posters that are seeking professional input should realize that there are a number of pro's that respect SJM's opinion, and would defer to his thoughts on ball position/safety play/risk reduction. I've been told by my instructor (a top pro) to "pay attention to SJM, you might learn something." He's a student of the game (my highest compliment).
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Willie, while I'm grateful for your comments, and pleased to hear that your professional teacher holds me in such high regard, I am, as you figured I would be, a touch annoyed.

Yes, like many others on the forum, I'm a lifelong student of the game. But my opinion on anything is nothing more than an opinion, and I recognize that so many who post are as qualified or more qualified to have an opinion regardng the game's theory.

I should never want to be viewed as any kind of authority on anything. I am merely just another poster on this forum, delighted to have the opportunity to converse with so many whose passion for pool is greater than or equal to mine.

I am so grateful to all on the forum. To all of you, I say "keep it coming," because I always value your opinions and, usually, I learn a lot from them. Most of all, thanks to all on the forum for all the good times. You've all been very respectful of me and I've always tried to be just as respectful of you. Pool has really enriched my life, and to have the opportunity to share the good times as well as some of my most vivid pool memories with all on the forum is truly special.

PS Willie, you're the man! Love you and your posts, and hope we'll get to hook up real soon. I'm not really annoyed, just scared that I'll be misunderstood on the forum. I just want to be one of the guys.
 
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Williebetmore said:
The One,
Just to clarify, you move the 8 to increase the chance of a runout, and to decrease the risk of fouling up when moving from the 7 to the 8 to the 9. There should be zero risk (for a medium skill level straight pool player) of putting the 8 in a worse position, and there should be zero risk of snookering yourself on the 2. Just hit the top of the 8 ball and watch the cue ball float towards the side rail (the side of the 2 ball) and watch the 8 ball leave the head rail. Simple and risk free.
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Willie, Ive seen top pro snooker players and 9 ball players do it a thousand times on TV. When you attempt to move a ball that you don't need to, no matter how simple a shot there is an "element of risk". WHat I am trying to say is that you need to evaluate that risk against the reward. IMO I don't see any problem with the 8 where it lies, especially as you said for a top pro like Ginky. If you finish straight on the 7 then you simply draw the cb, if you finish with too much angle then you can play 2 rails as somebody earlier pointed out? As I said I don't think this particular issue is a clear one, it depands how you feel on the day, and i would consider playing it myself if I was faced with it. However personally I think refusing to move the 8 is slightly more percentage wise the right shot to play - but only just :-)

Williebetmore said:
Remember though that Ginky is a highly accomplished straight pool player - what's easy and risk free for him might not be for us.
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Speak for yourself Willie! :-o
 
sjm said:
By the way, Celtic, I think you're on to something good. Wouldn't it be nice if some of the pros on this forum participated in these "How would you play this?" threads.
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I think Keith would liekly come out and give his 2 cents. Some of the other pro's though I am not sure look at this area of the board.

It would actually be really cool to have a "How would you play THIS" area of the board with each post being one of these WEI tables and then discussion on the outs in all the various games. We could then let the pro's know a specific area to check out and maybe give us their opinion on the various situations. I doubt Archer is gonna weed through all the "which cue is best" and "OMG is THIS Fast Larry?" threads to find these types of things.

We should ask Mike. It would be one of my favorite areas of these boards as I love these discussions on strategy.
 
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