Okay - Lets have it out! CNC vs. Non CNC'd made cues

macguy said:
I think that when ever technology is added to an industry the price and value of the product should go down

It's responses like this that really confuse those that want to learn something about this particular subject. If you make the impossible possible, the price should be higher.

I actually deleted what I wrote because why get into this but, what I am saying that what CNC does is make it possible for a cuemaker to increase production. You can set up machines that will turn 6 or 8 shafts and butts at a time with one guy overseeing the operation. That should translate to the end product having less value even if it is a better product, due to supply and demand.

This is yet another misleading post. A CNC doesn't in of itself make it possible to increase production. Machinery does.

The original table saw shaft machine wasn't a CNC, yet it helped to revolutionize the productivity of making shafts. I've seen 4-up non-CNC table saw machines that help to increase productivity a hundred fold compared to turning one at a time in years gone by.

The engine lathe itself helped to increase productivity in making cues.

The laminate router helped to increase procuctivity in making V-points.

The LVDT helped to make precision milling much easier.

None of these advances have anything to do with CNC equipment. Why don't they get thrown away, huh?

I absolutely hate this discussion, as more and more uneducated posts help to perpetuate many untruths about the use of CNC or the work of cuemakers in general.

Fred
 
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ScottR said:
To me, the question is what do you like the look of?

Exactly. I think people get confused with the terminology and just say 'CNC' without thinking much more than "rounded points."

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
I hate this argument. I really do. It's not a question nor should it ever be a question of CNC vs. non-CNC. I'd love it if it were never asked again.

Before an answer could even be considered, you'd have to really understand what a CNC in cuemaking reallly means. I think that 99% of all cue buyers (and forums posters) really don't have a clue what CNC in cuemaking means, but those same people are willing to respond to a post about it.

Tools advance as technology advance. How a cuemaker uses the tools should be the consideration, not what tools should be used. Or else, you'd have to be asking questions like: lathe made or hand-whittled?

Some use CNC's to make inlay pockets and inlays.

Some use CNC's to taper shafts (Ray Schuler, for example, considering how many different tapers he offered)

Some use CNC's to turn butts partially (several).

Some use CNC's to make patterns for the pantograph inlay machines, but not use the CNC directly on the cue (Bella Sera)

Some will use CNC's to make flat-bottom points (several).

Some CNC users never do that (Ray Schuler only made pantograph/pantomilled points, which the uneducated might still call 'CNC' points).

People have to realize that cuemakers who use CNC technology are some of the finest craftsmen the cuemaking industry will ever know:

Ernie Gutierrez
Thomas Wayne
Samsara Cues
Leonard Bludworth
Jerry McWorter

etc., etc., etc.,

It's not like they put wood in one end, hit a button, and out pops a cue.

Fred

Great post, Fred.

Now, how many of you prefer the carrier pigeon to the internet?

Chris
 
ARM9BALLER said:
I just don't see punching in a bunch of coordinates and spectating while the machine does the work as doing a custom job.
But that's not what CNC users really do! Why does anyone think this really happens?

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
I hate this argument. I really do. It's not a question nor should it ever be a question of CNC vs. non-CNC. I'd love it if it were never asked again.

I absolutely hate this discussion, as more and more uneducated posts help to perpetuate many untruths about the use of CNC or the work of cuemakers in general.


Why are you responing then? lol ;) :) :D


I am guessing the majority of your collection is cnc. Thats why you are so militant about the subject, I suppose...


I see several cue makers starting their prices at $1000~ for a standard 4 point cue. I refuse to believe they are not using the same program on all of those "standard" cues.

In that case, you agree that prices should go down, right? I know the market sets the price... Cue buyers just don't know why they should, or should not pay more.

I ask you this based on your response to macguy stating it is not cheaper to produce them (or something close to that)
 
CaptiveBred said:
I'm with macguy on the value. Its my number one problem with computerized cues... They should cost less because they require less labor to produce...

Uneducated comment, Should the cost of the technology be added into the cost?

I don't mind if computers are used in certain aspects of the process. When computers are used for the aesthetics, it becomes a joke. "Joke" because its funny to hear people raving about inlays, points, and design work like their builder is the apex cue builder. It always makes me chuckle since they have no, or little, clue about how easy it is to design with cnc.

Designing cues has very little to do with the CNC, the cue maker has to come up with the design in his mind before he uses the CNC to help him execute it. Also there is much more to designs then coming up with them on a computer. The Joke is that you feel it's easy to come up with designs.

Ya, I said it! It is EASY to use cnc and design with it. The only people who don't agree with me have never used modern cnc tools. Learning a new video game requires more memory storage in your brain than good cnc programs. Some people just don't realize it and overrespect the artisan making the cues...

The only people who think it's easy are those who just don't understand what goes into a good design, and who can't see the subtle design elements that separate good designs from bad.

IMO, a quaility cnc cue maker will always sharpen up his work.

Once more you are uneducated.

He will never leave points or other inlays round unless the customer wants it that way.

There has never been a customer who requested rounded inlays, some don't care, but none would ask for it.

It is just lazy to let the cpu cut out the patterns then just glue em in and turn em down to finish.

Again you show how uneducated you are, CNC can cut sharp inlay pieces but the pockets they cut are not sharp and there isn't a cutter that cuts sharp pockets, the cutters are small but still cut rounded pockets.

Pure lazy practice for a top dollar cue. Something like a production McDermott? Sure, leave em round and charge less...


High price cues are considered an art and thats why the "artists" charge more and their customers agree with the price. Based on that statement, lets look and the price difference between paintings, lithographs (printing press duplicates) and photographs.

You only need to change the number on a machine to produce more lithos, it's not something you can compare to cues. But for argument sake let's. What you are talking about is a production line cue (McDermott,Meucci,Joss) they are your lithos and they are cheaper then your custom cues.

If an artist was commissioned to hand paint a picture of Karen Corr wearing a tank top, what would that cost?

Depends on the artist, some would charge much more then others, just like the cue world a name and rep means a whole lot.


After the artist painted the picture, he sent it to a printing company to have liths made of it. How much should the infinite supply of prints sell for?

Again it all depends on the artist.

Lets go one step further. The same artist is to lazy to paint the pic so he does this - He takes a digital photo, uses photoshop to make it look like a painting, then sends it to the printer to make lithos to sell. Are those worth as much as the others or an original painting?

Of course not, but your argument can't be compared to cues.


Cues can be thought of in the same way when it comes to computers... The painting crowd understands how to price artists works of art. Cue collectors are very uneducated, compared the the painting crowds, on how to value one piece of work compared to another. Seems like "looks" is the only thing most cue buyers ever think about...

Once again you show ignorance, but you are right if you include yourself in that uneducated crowd. I'd say stick to paintings.

Jim
 
hustlefinger said:
I don’t agree with this.

I believe a CNC mill is just another tool for an artistic means. No different than a wood chisel. All the design, creativity and thought come’s from the cuemaker, right?

I’m not a cue maker, but that’s my opinion.

Rick

your right imo. it's very hard to educate cue buyers on this fact but as time goes by, even though the "traditional" maker will continue to thrive, ( and am glad to that fact ) other methods will be more readily accepted. cue makers in general construct their cues in basically in the same manner. the splice, while an art in itself, can be done with or without cnc also. floating point cues by true "custom" makers are the least produced of all "custom" cues. i think allot of this has to do with the fact that it's hard to come up with interesting and new designs which keep the buyers attention. design though is subjective to the buyer. construction, besides obvious "quick" methods, should not be. i've always held my ground with the use of "other" methods of construction as "tools" only and they should be used the same way a painter would use his tools to create his/her painting. cue makers use a basic cue as a canvas for their art. i say some art is too hard if not semi impossible to incorporate in a cue by old methods without showing massive imperfections that by today's standards would not "cut it" in the cue buying world let alone leaving a maker with trying to sell very few cues a year for outrageous amounts of money to make a living. i am the biggest fan of traditional methods of cue making as i stated in a previous thread, but just never bought into the bashing of the "new" cue building conspiracy that has been thrown around by some of the cue collecting and selling world.
 
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CaptiveBred said:
Why are you responing then? lol ;) :) :D


I am guessing the majority of your collection is cnc. Thats why you are so militant about the subject, I suppose...


I see several cue makers starting their prices at $1000~ for a standard 4 point cue. I refuse to believe they are not using the same program on all of those "standard" cues.

Again I have to say to you stick to paintings, you don't have a true grasp of cues or the cue market.

In that case, you agree that prices should go down, right? I know the market sets the price... Cue buyers just don't know why they should, or should not pay more.

The market is the market, many issues set the market, but most important would be supply and demand.

I ask you this based on your response to macguy stating it is not cheaper to produce them (or something close to that)

Again I would ask should the cost of the technology be added into the cost in your opinion?

Jim
 
CaptiveBred said:
Why are you responing then? lol ;) :) :D
I'm responding to the uneducated so that this question gets more educated responses. I hope you don't mind.


I am guessing the majority of your collection is cnc. Thats why you are so militant about the subject, I suppose...
First of all, I don't have a collection (compared to any real collectors). I don't know why you'd be guessing that I have any CNC cues at all. If I answered your question, I'm afraid that people (like yourself) wouldn't get it. I may seem "militant" to you on this subject because I spend hours upon hours with many different cuemakers. Can anyone else say the same? And I know what many of them do. For a misleading post to simply vilify or belittle what they do with CNC technology is ridiculous.


I see several cue makers starting their prices at $1000~ for a standard 4 point cue. I refuse to believe they are not using the same program on all of those "standard" cues.
Examples?

I ask you this based on your response to macguy stating it is not cheaper to produce them (or something close to that)
I said nothing close to that.

Thomas Wayne makes one of a kind cues that nobody can and ever will make, at least not without the aid of a CNC machine. There should be no reduction of cost simply because a CNC was used (which is what macguy implied). Fitting a thousand pieces of inlays together takes hundreds if not thousands of manhour labor.

Ernie Gutierrez makes duplicates of the same cues. The CNC makes the parts. Hundreds of parts, some times. Each part has to be fitted, glued and recut. Some large. Some are tiny. The CNC cutting is a small percentage of the overall work that goes into any one of his cues. There should be no reduction of cost just because he used a CNC to cut parts. The rest of the work was still cuebuilding at it's finest, and it his aesthetic design that he's selling.

Jack Madden can put an inlay that wraps more than the full circumference. The CNC cuts the slot. Jack has to fill it. With Silver. If he does the same inlay, but with gold or even with silver again, why should the price get reduced? Why would the cue be less hand-made?

You can use a CNC to cut V-grooves or even full-splices. Fitting them together is the magic, not cutting them.

Does this help to understand where I'm coming from?

Fred
 
Cornerman said:
It's not like they put wood in one end, hit a button, and out pops a cue.

Fred
To some respect some cue makers have practically done that. Joss east used to make cues with finger joints. They essentially glued up boards and cut them into strips, turned them round, routed out the points and glued them in then turned this whole mess into a tapered cue. Once the wrap was added hiding what they had done you now have what is pretty much nothing more then a facsimile of a pool cue with points, not even an attempt to build a decent cue. Thats what people picture when they hear CNC.
 
macguy said:
To some respect some cue makers have practically done that.
That is on the cutting edge of an all-out lie.

Joss east used to make cues with finger joints. They essentially glued up boards and cut them into strips, turned them round, routed out the points and glued them in then turned this whole mess into a tapered cue. Once the wrap was added hiding what they had done you now have what is pretty much nothing more then a facsimile of a pool cue with points, not even an attempt to build a decent cue.

Since you're describing it as if it just happens so easily, how do you reconcile that what you consider a 'hand-made cue' also is essentially:

glued up boards, jointed and turned, and once the wrap was added hiding what is done?



Where is the CNC technology mentioned in your description?

When did a finger joint not qualify is a tried and true wood joint?

When did routing out points get confused with CNC?

Why pick on Joss East when Bill Stroud and josswest is one of the founding fathers of CNC cuemaking technology?

Thats what people picture when they hear CNC.
Because they have uneducated posters misleading them. Time to change that.

Fred
 
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macguy said:
Thats what people picture when they hear CNC.

if this is what they "picture" as the norm than they don't belong collecting nor responding to the collecting or construction of cues by true "custom" cue makers using cnc as their tool to bring their art to the masses. they are mis-informed and that's it! the use of new technology for some is one of mass production but for true custom makers it's the tool that allows them to "construct" their art at all.
 
Too much watching of Doctor Suess Cartoons

I own CNC machinery. I sure wish I could find the machinery and software that operates the way most people seem to imagine.

Just for starters, how many of you understand lead in, lead out, uphill and downhill cuts, and G and M code? How about something as simple as moving the cutting tool clear of the work before returning to the home position before the automatic home command tries to run the cutting head through the work piece on the way home. Tens of thousands of dollars lost to just that little mistake recently at a shop where a friend works.

To be able to make a stick or anything else with a CNC machine you must first know how to make it properly the old fashioned way and then you have to know all of the ins and outs of CNC besides.

This article written by a master cue maker about his early experiences with CNC pretty much tells the story and is highly entertaining besides.

Hu

http://arnotq.com/pages/630/630.html
 
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ScottR said:
So, using your line of reasoning, todays cars have lower quality and are not as valuable (adjusted for inflation and what you are getting; reliability, power, safety) as cars from 50 years ago? :confused:

Well I saw muscle cars going for over a million dollars at the Barret Jackson auction! Regular old 70's era muscle cars, ok, maybe not "regular", but you know what I mean.

Alex
 
Alex Kanapilly said:
Well I saw muscle cars going for over a million dollars at the Barret Jackson auction! Regular old 70's era muscle cars, ok, maybe not "regular", but you know what I mean.

Alex

back then collecting or even ordering cars made with some of the custom options was very rare. how many 60's camaro's were ordered with the ZL1 option ( 427 aluminum block motor ). not many hence the values are way up there. my point is today collecting has become part of the main stream and many more people are "aware" of future values. some are trying to justify their leap into the market by condemning anything other than what they've invested in. that only secludes them from the parts of an investment market that could increase the future value of their "portfolio" and mis-informs the other "investors" of the potential growth within their own "cue portfolios"
. this is not very smart investing imo and total mis-information based on a biased opinion that has an agenda other than the truth.
 
TATE said:
Other cues like Josey's and the Cog's have such intricate patterns and small bits that these barely rounded edges look OK to me and it wouldn't stop me from buying one.

Chris

thanks Tate. the art that we, Josey and Cognoscenti, put into our cues is a little hard, to say the least, to do any other way than to use this technology to our benefit. that has been my contension all along. i ask for cue buyers to look at the "true" custom makers who's anual "custom" output is minimal and choose from them the cues you like the most. there some of us out here that are making very unique cues and we don't want to be lumped together with the makers who's cues are less than atractive or are mass produced using similar technology.
 
Cornerman said:
It's responses like this that really confuse those that want to learn something about this particular subject. If you make the impossible possible, the price should be higher.



This is yet another misleading post. A CNC doesn't in of itself make it possible to increase production. Machinery does.

The original table saw shaft machine wasn't a CNC, yet it helped to revolutionize the productivity of making shafts. I've seen 4-up non-CNC table saw machines that help to increase productivity a hundred fold compared to turning one at a time in years gone by.

The engine lathe itself helped to increase productivity in making cues.

The laminate router helped to increase procuctivity in making V-points.

The LVDT helped to make precision milling much easier.

None of these advances have anything to do with CNC equipment. Why don't they get thrown away, huh?

I absolutely hate this discussion, as more and more uneducated posts help to perpetuate many untruths about the use of CNC or the work of cuemakers in general.

Fred


Don't get me wrong I have nothing against CNC, if you read one of my other posts you would see that. I do have a problem with lack of quality and deception. When someone takes a razor knife and cuts out the round to accommodate a pointed point. Is he doing this because he think it looks better or is he trying to fake a spliced butt. I have seen cues with veneers that had sharp points and were being passed off as spliced butts when they were not. You can tell easily by the way the veneers taper. This is a deception, maybe not by the original cue maker but the reseller.
 
On This Site it says:

I'm sure you're aware of the controversy arguing the merits of V-grooved points vs. CNC points. I don't see where either has a decisive advantage over the other. V-groove (often called spliced) points are easy to do accurately (even easier if you are content to be sloppy) and they can be made even more quickly than CNC. No special knowledge is needed & great results can be had using a variety of machines & methods. I don't believe they strengthen the forearm & prevent warpage any better than CNC points. If your wood is properly cured, you won't have any problems.
 
Okay - Lets have it out! CNC vs. Non CNC'd made cues

> I've had several discussions about this with my machine shop instructor. He is a 20 yr vet tool and die maker,even though he's only 40. He says that in his experience,if a operator cannot cut a 3/8-12 Acme screw for example on a regular engine lathe,like most cuemakers use in some form or another,they sure as HELL can't program a CNC lathe to cut it,at least not without disastrous or fatal results. That tells me that even if you went out and spent 100k or more on a CNC machine,without proper training and acquired skill,all the technology and accuracy in that machine is totally useless. That is not saying that the CNC CAN'T be learned without a machinist background,but it sure as hell helps. In my mind,and I'm sure a LOT of others,all the CNC technology does is free up time for other things,by making certain procedures automated,such as cutting shaft blanks 4 at a time,with repeatable results. Unless it is a very complex part,and you have your entire CNC program totally "canned",you don't have time to just load up materials,hit the start button and go have lunch. My instructor tells me that unless he's really confident that the program he's written for a particular part will work flawlessly every time,he NEVER walks away from it. Whether rounded parts are cut with a pantograph,or CNC,they still require hand finishing skills to deburr them,etc. Some really skilled cuemakers use "primitive" tools such as X-Acto knives of different types and shapes to take a part that was bulk-cut with either a panto or CNC,which leave rounded edges because of the tools radius,and hand-finish them to complete sharpness. Like it or not,some people have that talent and some don't. I see things from both sides. I appreciate the things that CNC makes possible,and the talent and skills it takes to execute sharp inlays and perfect spliced points. That being said,as far as pure aesthetics,I honestly prefer rounded points/inlays,but not in all cases. Certain point styles and veneer/recut color combinations look much better sharp to me. Cuemakers that heavily use CNC,like Ernie for an example,are just making things more time-efficient,and should NOT be looked down upon for using what technology is available to them. The semi-mass produced cues like Joss,Schon and Pechauer may be looked at by some as "cookie-cutter" cues. But,ask yourself,other than some of the stuff Meucci makes,how many times have you really seen 2 IDENTICAL cues from them,that weren't a simple variation of a basic 4 point? Tommy D.
 
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