Tommy-D said:
Tommy, well said.
Okay - Lets have it out! CNC vs. Non CNC'd made cues
- Thread starter Snapshot9
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Tommy, well said.
ARM9BALLER said:
Do you really want to know? Or are the responses from Tommy D and Skins enough for you?
CNC is Computer Numerical Control. It's used on several different applications that require precise motion. This includes but is not limited to robotic material handling & processing, vertical milling, routing, and lathe turning.
Unless you (I, not you) build a system that can take the wood and re-orient it in between the various steps of turning, splicing/joining, inlaying, wrapping, and finishing, then no cuemaker can possibly just place a piece of wood in and hit a button. To my knowledge, there isn't a cuemaker that does anything remotely close to this.
If you just look at one process, say, pre-turning a lathe with a specific taper in mind, the "hand-made" process is to put the wood in an engine lathe, with a taper bar, turn on the lathe, and move the lever for automatic feed. This is repeated in small increments on the wood. The same exact process is done with a CNC operated lathe except the cuemaker doesn't have to physically move the lever for auto feed and return the tool holder to the start. That's the only difference. There's no hand making about it. Both pretty much stand there and watch the machine do its thing. In the case of a CNC operated lathe, the cuemaker can actually be doing something else while the lathe is running. That's efficiency.
A cuemaker still has to know how a cue must be structurally designed first and foremost, whether it's flat-bottomed points or V-groove points (yes, a CNC can absolutely be used to make V-spliced points). And he has to know what material feed rates are, how a the wood might blow out on router passes, fits & tolerances, glue methods, finishing methods. And most of these operations must be done by hand. Everything a cuemaker still has to know. If he doesn't intimately understand how these are done without a CNC, then he's not going to be any kind of cuemaker.
Most cuemakers who use CNC technology do so to advance their cuemaking skills and to do things that any cuemaker just can't do by hand with any kind of repeatability or acuracy.
Fred
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macguy said:
I guess I still don't understand you. It seems like all you're talking about is round points vs. spliced butts.Neither have anything to do with a CNC,which you said yourself. Now you're talking about deception by sharpening the points??? The educated debaters say that a flat-bottom point should have hand-sharpened tips. Not for deception, but for aesthetics.
If someone makes rounded flat-bottom points, and then sharpens the points and drops a sharp inlay point in there, that's fine by me. It shows that he's paying attention to detail and likes sharp points. It's also fine if he doesn't sharpen his points. There's a market for those as well. But, IMO, structurally, a flat-bottomed point shouldn't be sharp. Visually its nice, but the sharpened point is an induced stress point.
Fred
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Jigger said:Clarification Please:
Am I correct in thinking that even the "elite cue makers" often use CNC and then re-cut the blunt areas by hand to make their razor sharp points, veneers and inlays?
If that's the case I see no problem with CNC.
Great point here....it's what a cuemaker does afterwards that I think makes a difference....you can see production cues that have clearly been cut by a large bit on CNC because it can be run at faster cutting speeds....at this point is where you differentiate a person on a CNC and someone who's going to follow up with a smaller bit or add their handwork to the cue....
whether on a CNC or pantograph the results are the same, it's what is done afterwards that count IMO more than anything...
________
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The Quality Control Department where I worked bought a computer controlled coordinate measuring machine to check out the tolerances on sheet metal stampings. The demonstration for this machine consisted of driving a Corvette onto the surface plate and then the salesperson pressed a button and the arm went to various spots on the car and took a 3D measurement. Evenutually there was a measurement for every surface of the car. Amazing. After the machine was purchased and installed it was realized that there was a lot more involved than pushing a button. It took a lot of training and time to program the machine to get a measurement. You had to input the first 2 measurements and the machine than read the 3rd. This was after you established the base line. It was a lot more complicated and time consuming than the old method of using hand gauges, but the result was better accuracy.
Nah Tommy-D and Skins said it best. Thanks for the offer though.Cornerman said:
Someone please let me know the final decision on this. In the meantime, I'm going to turn some forearm wood on my MANUAL lathe, so I can go to my MANUAL milling machine to start cutting some V GROOVED TRADITIONAL recut points cause I don't like FLAT BOTTOM POINTS
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PS: I do not hate CNC btw. Every maker should be appreciated for doing what he enjoys. If that happens to be working with CNC equipment, good for him (or her). If it happens to be a recycled & sharpened hack saw blade, even more power to him.
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PS: I do not hate CNC btw. Every maker should be appreciated for doing what he enjoys. If that happens to be working with CNC equipment, good for him (or her). If it happens to be a recycled & sharpened hack saw blade, even more power to him.
TellsItLikeItIs said:
didn't you know ignorance always has more on it's side. it's similar to trading stocks or any kind of investing. most people don't have a clue on how to use money to make money. there are much fewer rich people than poor. my point is look at discussions such as this as "pool cue seminars". of course to have any seminar some of the paticipants must have extensive knowledge on the subject so the rest can form an educated opinion. you know the old adage "opinions are like a******s everyone has one" and they're entitled to their opinion on what they like. don't confuse "taste" opinion with the facts in cue production. i've always said buy what you like just stop selling bad information.
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Let's take sharp, veneered, v-groove points . . . .
Wanna bet I can cut the v-grooves with a CNC machine that are exactly like cutting them any other way? What's the difference and can you tell me which is which?
What is the proper way for a cue maker to miter the veneers for the points? Hand plane, table saw, radial arm saw, mill, CNC machine? After they are mitered, can you tell how they were done?
How should the point stock be squared? Same options as the previous question. Can you tell how the square was achieved?
The answer to all of the questions is "NO". You cannot tell the difference.
What the "anti-CNC" people are running down is rounded "points" on inlays. That's all. I will hand you twelve (whatever #) of cues with sharp points and inlays and, if you don't know the maker or his techniques, you CANNOT tell me which were done with CNC.
Wanna bet I can cut the v-grooves with a CNC machine that are exactly like cutting them any other way? What's the difference and can you tell me which is which?
What is the proper way for a cue maker to miter the veneers for the points? Hand plane, table saw, radial arm saw, mill, CNC machine? After they are mitered, can you tell how they were done?
How should the point stock be squared? Same options as the previous question. Can you tell how the square was achieved?
The answer to all of the questions is "NO". You cannot tell the difference.
What the "anti-CNC" people are running down is rounded "points" on inlays. That's all. I will hand you twelve (whatever #) of cues with sharp points and inlays and, if you don't know the maker or his techniques, you CANNOT tell me which were done with CNC.
Ok. I believe that this is just being over thought out really. This is my opinion. I have done machining in the past (admittedly only lead free brass) however I can tell you it does take skill and patience. The designs are still the makers.
Me personally I like the idea of something being "Handmade." please don't say anything like "what they use their finger nails and teeth" you get the idea that they are holding something sharp. For me it is the mere romantcism of the idea. Just like jewelry or furniture. I like the idea of knowing that somewhere some maker sat in a dingy dusty room with poor lighting piecing together something wonderful. No hum of machinery, or brave new world type of technology. I believe it comes from the fact that I fly fish and tie my flies and attempting to make my own rod. There is something special about the handmade things. Are they better? probably not. CNC's are accurate to thousandths of an inch (is it the same for wood CNC?)
IMOP - I like the slight imperfections of handmade cues with handtools, over the brilliant precision of technlogy. If anything, nostaglia or romanticism.
ALSO - are there any female cue makers out there? there has to be. I'm just curious.
Me personally I like the idea of something being "Handmade." please don't say anything like "what they use their finger nails and teeth" you get the idea that they are holding something sharp. For me it is the mere romantcism of the idea. Just like jewelry or furniture. I like the idea of knowing that somewhere some maker sat in a dingy dusty room with poor lighting piecing together something wonderful. No hum of machinery, or brave new world type of technology. I believe it comes from the fact that I fly fish and tie my flies and attempting to make my own rod. There is something special about the handmade things. Are they better? probably not. CNC's are accurate to thousandths of an inch (is it the same for wood CNC?)
IMOP - I like the slight imperfections of handmade cues with handtools, over the brilliant precision of technlogy. If anything, nostaglia or romanticism.
ALSO - are there any female cue makers out there? there has to be. I'm just curious.
prolecat said:
A friend of mine is a distributor. I just emailed him to double check. He has been to the plant where they make predator cues. They make approx 300/month. The wood goes through an intense inspection process. Only the best is used for Predators. The left over is used for higher volume, lower price production cues, under various brand names.
Robbie said:
I bought a second grade predator 314 a while back. almost 4 -5 years? they carved a deep black line about the 314 and the predator symbol to indicate it is second grade. It has one blemish on it. I'm not kidding, a small 1/16th of an inch wood knot 12 inches from the tip. hard to notice. They sold it to me for almost half the cost of a grade 1 shaft and gave me free overnighting on it. It was on there site a while ago and never saw the offer again. They definitely take inspection seriously. I love my 314 and swear by it, and the small blemish is something no one notices. It's only the black ring that people see that makes them wonder what is going on.
ScottR said:
LOL.. This post had me laughing, becuase well in sifting through 4 pages it's the only one that makes any kind of sense.
I'm curious how does one make a sharp point on a manual machine? I'm not a cue maker, but I've been a machinist my whole life (mostly manual, some CNC). If I had to make a something like a pool cue I think I'd mount the Pool cue at an angle then take a somewhat sizeable cutter (3/8 - 1/2 inch?) and began cutting at the base of the butt with the depth decreasing towards the joint. By definition sooner or later your going to end up with a "point." Same could be done on a CNC machine? I'm assuming this isn't how it's done (again I'm not a cuemaker) but there's a way of achieving a point without a small cutter, and I don't think it would matter if it was CNC or manual? If it did CNC would probably yield a better result from more consistent feeds being able to be achieved?
You know what's ironic about all this, is not knowing how cues are built and just looking at it from a style stand point.. Occasionally I like sharp points, and occasionally I like rounded points depending on the style/design of the cue. Never even occurred to me that one would be looked down upon over the other?
DJ
I do hope your reply was not intended to be as condescending as it appears.skins said:
And one of those with the "extensive" knowledge would be you? This bears no resemblence whatsoever to a "pool cue seminar" Skins. Not this particularskins said:
thread, but this debate, has gone on for so long now, it has become a urinating contest rather than a learning process. Of particular interest (to me at least) is the defensive position you and a few others that use CNC take. Why?
Yes, heard that old adage several times. Seems that many have only that to say when they cannot think of something worthwhile.skins said:
The only bad information I see being on the selling block is your attempt at justifying the use of CNC. Is there really a need to? If that's the method you choose, man go for it.
You did make at least one remark in an earlier post that was right on the button: "The traditional maker will continue to thrive". You got that right! And he will do it without gouging his clients with the exorbitant prices.
I do have a couple of CNC machines in my shop now. I used top think I never would. I was against it somewhat at first. Now I see it makes some jobs better and some jobs easier and some jobs harder. My main problem with the wide use of CNC equipment is that I now see many fancy cues that are not built very well or play very well. In times past cuemakers including myself started building fairly plain cues and advanced in to points and pantograph work. Our cues were literally getting better as they got fancier. Now many are learning how to do fancy inlay work before they have even perfected the hit they desire and just put out inferior cues that are fancy designs. If you take a look at the higher end Schicks, Gilberts, Kikels and even the cue in cuejoey's aviatar that I built without doing the inlays with CNC. The work would stand out head and shoulders above what most of todays upstarting cuemakers would be putting out. But those cues might just be average high end cues in todays market because of CNC. In 1994 at the BCA trade show I had one of the fanciest cues on the floor. All done with manual inlay machine. That cue started the silver lace bezel wire craze that followed. I sold that cue to a dealer for the most I had ever sold a cue for at the time. Now the same speed cue won't bring the money it would then because CNC has now made fancy not worth all that much. I have now started back building some v-groove points because people want something that looks more hand done. We now knife corners on some inlays pockets to give sharp cornered inlays. CNC is here to stay so we need to get used to it and try to add those hand touches that make our cues special. Here is my advice if you are looking for a cue. Try one from the guys who learned to build them the old way and then try the new cuemaker who got fancy fast cue and see which one has the feel you are looking for. You might be surprised how much thought went into developing the hit in the older school cuemakers cues. Bottom Line: Lets make them pretty, but let's also make them hit good!
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
CNC cues can be custom if the cue maker doesn’t make copies but that doesn’t mean it is art. If I’m going to pay top dollar then I want my cue art be actually art and not something that any moron can punch into a computer. The work has to be unique.
An example of amazing cue can be found at www.viattorre.com just take a look at the eXcaliber simply amazing, all hand made, now that is art.
When I buy my cues that are mass produced I don’t want any points or designs, those things are reserved for true pieces of art.
An example of amazing cue can be found at www.viattorre.com just take a look at the eXcaliber simply amazing, all hand made, now that is art.
When I buy my cues that are mass produced I don’t want any points or designs, those things are reserved for true pieces of art.
PoolSleuth
Banned
PoolSleuth said:CNC=Computer Numerical Control is just another Tool in Man Cuemakers ARSENAL. How could you accomplish something like this without CNC
See photo below....
The same way Bushka did his staggered diamond dot pattern, manually indexed, and manually cut. But it will take more time, no doubt about it.
Joe