Okay - Lets have it out! CNC vs. Non CNC'd made cues

[Jaden]

I hope you are serious.....because here it is.

Please educate me by showing the results of this 1/2" drill, scrap wood, level and misc. hardware method. I am open minded and would love to learn something new. Seriously.

Take the drill apart and drill holes iin the plastic casing from the inside.

Use, L angle brackets to mount the drill to the side of a table.

Use wood screws and a 1 inch piece of MDF mounted at a Tangential angle to the drill on the table about four inches from the end of the bit. The drill should be mounted securely and level using the level. It should be level at the bit, not the housing. (this wood will be the main guide.)

Use a conical 90 degree bit with a half inch shank in the drill.

Determine how long you want the points to be and how wide you like them to be. measure the depth of the bit at the point on the bit that is as wide as you want the points to be. (They will actually end up being a little narrower because you'll wear them narrower in the turning down process.)

Then you measure and cut a triangular piece of wood at the length and depth at the wide end that you determined in the previous steps.

You use a small I bracket attached to the end of the triangular piece of wood to hold the forearm square in place.

Place the forearm square on the front of the triangular wood and place both against the mounted guide.

Use a velcro band to hold the drill button to the on position.

Slowly bring the forearm square forward holding it in place against the other woods and through the bit. You'll have to go back and forth about an inch at a time and work your way farther back along the forearm to keep the drill from bogging down.gradually taking it down through the back of the forearm.

Is that sufficient or should I give an entire process, or explain how to manually do such things as floating points that are spliced with curved ends etc...?????

I wouldn't tell you how to do that on here I was just joshing ya.

I really don't know how this thing got blown so far out of proportion. All I said was that CNC work is best for those intricate designs that can't be done very easily with hand techniques. I never said I was a CNC expert, Although I could probably make a CNC system for a Standard LAthe/Mill. I do unserstand the idea behind them and I do or have known cuemakers that use them.

And to that person who said they could give me access to their entire shop and don't think I could make a golf tee? Well, we'll just see what we see.... Won't we? I don't need access to your shop BTW I have my own. And "NO, the aforementioned way of using a drill is not the method I use...."

I don't use this method, I solely said that I could....

I have specific tools for cutting the V grooves.

 

[ScottR]

Take the drill apart and drill holes iin the plastic casing from the inside.

Use, L angle brackets to mount the drill to the side of a table.

Use wood screws and a 1 inch piece of MDF mounted at a Tangential angle to the drill on the table about four inches from the end of the bit. The drill should be mounted securely and level using the level. It should be level at the bit, not the housing. (this wood will be the main guide.)

Use a conical 90 degree bit with a half inch shank in the drill.

Determine how long you want the points to be and how wide you like them to be. measure the depth of the bit at the point on the bit that is as wide as you want the points to be. (They will actually end up being a little narrower because you'll wear them narrower in the turning down process.)

Then you measure and cut a triangular piece of wood at the length and depth at the wide end that you determined in the previous steps.

You use a small I bracket attached to the end of the triangular piece of wood to hold the forearm square in place.

Place the forearm square on the front of the triangular wood and place both against the mounted guide.

Use a velcro band to hold the drill button to the on position.

Slowly bring the forearm square forward holding it in place against the other woods and through the bit. You'll have to go back and forth about an inch at a time and work your way farther back along the forearm to keep the drill from bogging down.gradually taking it down through the back of the forearm.

Is that sufficient or should I give an entire process, or explain how to manually do such things as floating points that are spliced with curved ends etc...?????

I wouldn't tell you how to do that on here I was just joshing ya.

I really don't know how this thing got blown so far out of proportion. All I said was that CNC work is best for those intricate designs that can't be done very easily with hand techniques. I never said I was a CNC expert, Although I could probably make a CNC system for a Standard LAthe/Mill. I do unserstand the idea behind them and I do or have known cuemakers that use them.

And to that person who said they could give me access to their entire shop and don't think I could make a golf tee? Well, we'll just see what we see.... Won't we? I don't need access to your shop BTW I have my own. And "NO, the aforementioned way of using a drill is not the method I use...."

I don't use this method, I solely said that I could....

I have specific tools for cutting the V grooves.

Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to post this. I have to reread it a couple of times to make sure I understand what you are describing.

In the meantime, why don't you post pictures of your work and describe (at a high level, without giving away any proprietary information) how you achieved it. A picture is worth a thousand words, right?

I'll show you mine if you show me yours . . . .

 

[Canadian cue]

To me the elements which best define a makers talents are his creativity and his knowledge. Creativity being A his ability to come up with new and attractive designs and B the processes to carry them out. Knowledge being a deep understanding of the materials involved and how to use them. Whether the maker uses CNC machines or manual machines should not make his work greater or lesser in value. The tools are merely a way of applying those talents.

 

[Jaden]

To me the elements which best define a makers talents are his creativity and his knowledge. Creativity being A his ability to come up with new and attractive designs and B the processes to carry them out. Knowledge being a deep understanding of the materials involved and how to use them. Whether the maker uses CNC machines or manual machines should not make his work greater or lesser in value. The tools are merely a way of applying those talents.

I sadi exactly this, or atleast I implied and meant it. I just made the mistake of speaking to specific ideas as to what makes different processes better. It's still completely up to the individual as to what type of feel they prefer. I just like and all of the really good players that I know like Solid hitting cues and I gave my opinion of what I think makes for a more solid hitting cue. I can't help it that the people who disagreed with me had a pinchent for CNC'd cues, read CNC users and had to try to take me apart. Oh, I'll post some pics of my work soon enough.. I'm in the process of finishing the first commissioned cue for a player out of San Diego. I've been working on trying to determine how I want to design cues for more than 6 years and am just getting to where I am comfortable putting them out to market.

I remember seeing other cue makers that I knows first works (because most of them start out repairing cues and cutting down sneaky pete's and I didn't want my first cues to be that. That's why I've waited so long to bring them to market as well as the fact that I've been the Navy for the last five plus years, (until Today!!! Yes, I just finished my last day on active duty, well not entirely. I'm on terminal leave), and haven't had the time to devote to the process that I needed. Especially considering I just got back in December from a seven month deployment in Cuba.

I'll create another thread once I finish the cue I'm working on and get some photos of it. It should be by the end of this next week. Barring no unforeseen difficulties.

 

[bandido]

you can use different cutters with varying degrees to cut the pocket tips similar to a slopped v-groove. you have to setup the piece to at certain angle depending on the length of the cut or use the right cnc machine and software to actually either manipulate the piece or the spindle to do the same. i'm not saying any of this is easy nor cheap but it can be done with the right machinery or technique. as far as prep work you would have to hand "compound" taper the bottoms of the inlays to fit the "sloped" pocket.

Thank you Skins. Those do sound to complicated and not compatible with my skills and I did high light a quote from TelltLikeItIs which applies to my stated opinion.
Originally Posted by TellsItLikeItIs
Mine may not be the best way to accomplish a certain task, but they are the methods I prefer.
But still, thank you. I learned something new.

 

[cornerstone]

In the past, I have seen quite a few comments in reference to cues made with a CNC vs. Cues made by other means (Craftsman skills).

My particular cuemaker happens to make both types of cues. I also have
dwelled in the Computer area about 30 years, and realize both the pluses
and minuses that computerized equipement can bring to a craft.

I will state my opinions and analysis of the subject later on, but right now
I would like to get some of your opinions, and what you believe are the benefits to one method over the other.

So, I guess it is the age old argument of: Art vs. Science in a way.

any tools you can use to help improve your product !!Just do it clean

 

[skins]

I sadi exactly this, or atleast I implied and meant it. I just made the mistake of speaking to specific ideas as to what makes different processes better. It's still completely up to the individual as to what type of feel they prefer. I just like and all of the really good players that I know like Solid hitting cues and I gave my opinion of what I think makes for a more solid hitting cue.

this is not intended to start another negative discussion but the fact is a solid hitting cue is not exclusive to any single method. some makers produce some of the most solid and consistent hitting cues in the world and they use cnc. the difference that separates and at the same time encompasses all cue makers is the way the butts, joints, shafts and ferrules ect.... are prepared. cue making is an art in itself beyond the way the cues are adorned with design work. to me as long as the maker takes the cue performance first and then works in the design aspect the "desire" for the cues will take care of itself.

 

[bandido]

this is not intended to start another negative discussion but the fact is a solid hitting cue is not exclusive to any single method. some makers produce some of the most solid and consistent hitting cues in the world and they use cnc. the difference that separates and at the same time encompasses all cue makers is the way the butts, joints, shafts and ferrules ect.... are prepared. cue making is an art in itself beyond the way the cues are adorned with design work. to me as long as the maker takes the cue performance first and then works in the design aspect the "desire" for the cues will take care of itself.

tap tap tap

 

[Jaden]

Ok Yes...

this is not intended to start another negative discussion but the fact is a solid hitting cue is not exclusive to any single method. some makers produce some of the most solid and consistent hitting cues in the world and they use cnc. the difference that separates and at the same time encompasses all cue makers is the way the butts, joints, shafts and ferrules ect.... are prepared. cue making is an art in itself beyond the way the cues are adorned with design work. to me as long as the maker takes the cue performance first and then works in the design aspect the "desire" for the cues will take care of itself.

The whole reason this thing got started was because I stated that the most solid design (IMO ok?) Is using V-groove and veneered squares turned on their sides when doing points. I stated that this was true compared to flat bottom because of the angles involved, especially when compression gluing techniques are used because the combination of teh compression and the angle forces any air pockets and glue bubbles up the V and if not out of the wood joins,then at least to the outer edges which are then removed when turning down the square. All I said was that the people that I have knwon to use CNC turned the squares round BEFORE they added the points, veneers, inlays, and that this would tend to leave air pockets and glue bubbles because there is little turning of the main forearm piece of wood after this point, it is mainly just flushing the points, veneers, inlays with the other wood.

Because there are more air pockets and glue bubbles, this lends to a less solid hit. I also stated that the difference is negligable, especially because flat bottomed CNC points, veneers, and inlays tend to not go as deep into the wood; however, it would still cause more vibration IMO....

I have not stated anything that is asinine or idiotic nor have I shown a lack of knowledge on the subject and I don't see why anyone who doesn't have a ulterior motive in doing so would state such a thing. I have stated that I am not as well versed in the programming and setting up of CNC machinery as those who are proponents of it, so if I have shown a lack of knowledge in that arena then I admit again that I don't have a wealth of knowledge there.

As for the guy who showed the square milling or router bit and said if it's approached from an angle then it is a 90 degree bit, touche; however, I only stated that those were the only two specifically 90 degree router bits that can be used for V-grooves, I didn't state that other bits couldn't be used to make a V-groove. In fact, I admitted it was possible to use a pinpoint CNC mill bit with CNC programming to make one, I only stated that it would seem to be a waste of effort to do so when it is soo simple to do it the traditional way, and that's when this whole name calling argument ordeal got started.

I emphatically apologize if I offended anyone, especially the Cuemakers out there that use CNC, Those were not my intentions. Cnc is excellent for doing either complex scrollwork or simplifying inlay work and your skill and design expertise are not unappreciated.

I prefer to do it the more traditional way for the aforementioned reasons and as a form of nostalgic appreciation of those cuemakers of the past and those others that continue the tradition even though it usually means that they can produce less cues than the cuemakers who have chosen to go the route of the CNC milling lathes.

I also apologize for the moron comment Scott. That was uncalled for and not entirely directed at you anyways. I don't appreciate being called names on the forum so I should have been a little more respectful of you. I will take pictures of the various stages of the Cue I am currently working on and post them here sometime toward the end of next week.

This one is a traditional style four point three veneer with tri veneer rings and three piece butt, cocobolo points on a heavily figured birdseye forearm. The butt is Bridseye, cocobolo, birdseye with matching tri veneer rings in between.

The comissioned work I have after this is a little more intricate with a full splice ebony on birdseye with floating cocobolo points and floating birdseye darts at the end of the floating points. I'm looking forward to that one and am planning on splicing ALL of the inlays. I even splice dots and diamonds by using sphere's and squares and spherical head bits as well as 90 degree bits. You can bet that I will be showing pics of both when they are complete. I'm going to leave this at that because as you said "A picture is worth a thousand words."

 

[skins]

The whole reason this thing got started was because I stated that the most solid design (IMO ok?) Is using V-groove and veneered squares turned on their sides when doing points. I stated that this was true compared to flat bottom because of the angles involved, especially when compression gluing techniques are used because the combination of teh compression and the angle forces any air pockets and glue bubbles up the V and if not out of the wood joins,then at least to the outer edges which are then removed when turning down the square. All I said was that the people that I have knwon to use CNC turned the squares round BEFORE they added the points, veneers, inlays, and that this would tend to leave air pockets and glue bubbles because there is little turning of the main forearm piece of wood after this point, it is mainly just flushing the points, veneers, inlays with the other wood.

my response is not to discredit any makers methods but to expose other ways some do their work. as far as the butt work there are makers who use certain techniques such as laminated handles that extend through the cap and joint. the forearm and butt material is cored and "sleeved" over to create cue integrity. these butts will have a greater chance to be "as" if not more consistent than spliced fronts and warpage will be cut down to minimum so inlaying their designs with cnc plays little part in the "solidness" of their cues because the structural integrity is common throughout the entire butt. we've all seen the great success of predator shafts. this technique has now been exposed to the construction throughout the entire cue also and has a great effect to the overall way a cue will perform. i'm sure some of us out here have had spliced front cues that don't roll right. if the shafts are straight, this is mostly because the joint has "moved" and needs to be re-faced or the handle has started to warp which can be greatly reduced if not eliminated by laminated handles with sleeved parts. i'm sure many different methods of cue construction will be exposed in time and the production of cues will only get better but this in no way will ever discredit nor leave "traditional" cues made by competent makers inferior or of course less desirable.

 

[Jaden]

absolutely.

my response is not to discredit any makers methods but to expose other ways some do their work. as far as the butt work there are makers who use certain techniques such as laminated handles that extend through the cap and joint. the forearm and butt material is cored and "sleeved" over to create cue integrity. these butts will have a greater chance to be "as" if not more consistent than spliced fronts and warpage will be cut down to minimum so inlaying their designs with cnc plays little part in the "solidness" of their cues because the structural integrity is common throughout the entire butt. we've all seen the great success of predator shafts. this technique has now been exposed to the construction throughout the entire cue also and has a great effect to the overall way a cue will perform. i'm sure some of us out here have had spliced front cues that don't roll right. if the shafts are straight, this is mostly because the joint has "moved" and needs to be re-faced or the handle has started to warp which can be greatly reduced if not eliminated by laminated handles with sleeved parts. i'm sure many different methods of cue construction will be exposed in time and the production of cues will only get better but this in no way will ever discredit nor leave "traditional" cues made by competent makers inferior or of course less desirable.

I know a cuemaker who will often use square cores in laminate the outer woods on it. His designs are 100% unique and they would be really good if he would either setup a website or sell them at a cheaper price until he gets some interest, it's just that his designs are soo unique that it tends to put off the people that are willing to spend 2000 on a cue.

I'd like to do one similar with alternating ivory ebony ivory ebony laminates for the forearm and then put alternating ebony and ivory points. That's going to be a personal cue for me though.

 

[skins]

I'd like to do one similar with alternating ivory ebony ivory ebony laminates for the forearm and then put alternating ebony and ivory points. That's going to be a personal cue for me though.

sounds like something that Samsara cues would take advantage of except they would put a "twist" on it. they're imo the most inovative in cue construction. true wood working genius like Josey.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

Apologies for not getting back last night, yesterday was a very very loooong day.

another very common bit that can be used to cut pockets with a 90 degree included angle. Dave

On the subject of cutting tools (for V grooves), that will get the job done Dave. I have tried them but found the set up time to be more than what I wanted to deal with. I realize you were just showing another tool that would work btw.

Over the past years I have tried everything I could get my hands on (starting with the 90 degree router bits). I finally settled on this one:
http://wttool.com/p/0840-0155
Occasionally they can be hard to find, they are a little expensive, and sharpening is not cheap, but they do cut nice. Prior to this I used the HSS version. I found them to be poorly made, did not last long, and did not cut as cleanly.

Even with the cobalt cutters, I have them sharpened before I use them. I was fortunate enough to find a semi retired Tool & Die Maker that sharpens tools in his spare time, and can put an edge on a tool you can nearly shave with.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I think using a CNC is pure crap and anyone who uses a CNC sucks. I have no idea what a CNC is, but I just wanted to take part in the argument.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

Thank you Skins. Those do sound to complicated and not compatible with my skills and I did high light a quote from TelltLikeItIs which applies to my stated opinion.
Originally Posted by TellsItLikeItIs
Mine may not be the best way to accomplish a certain task, but they are the methods I prefer.
But still, thank you. I learned something new.

Thanks Edwin, even though I'm probably not the original author of that statement.

I believe it safe to say that nearly every cue maker could say that same thing. Even though we all may build basically the same way, it's obvious that each maker has his/her own way of reaching the roads end. I would imagine you, in your earlier years of making, found the same as I: Lots & lots of pot holes in the road. One just needs to avoid hitting the same pot holes over & over again.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

I think using a CNC is pure crap and anyone who uses a CNC sucks. I have no idea what a CNC is, but I just wanted to take part in the argument.

Now, now. Remarks like that will get you a bad rep mark

 

[ScottR]

.....[snipped].....

I also apologize for the moron comment Scott. That was uncalled for and not entirely directed at you anyways. I don't appreciate being called names on the forum so I should have been a little more respectful of you. I will take pictures of the various stages of the Cue I am currently working on and post them here sometime toward the end of next week.

I appreciate the apology, Jaden. I reread my posts and didn't see where I called anyone a name . . . . until I insinuated that you were one in retaliation.

This post (which I snipped most of) was very well written and I now understand your position and perspective. Looking forward to seeing your work.

 

[ScottR]

Apologies for not getting back last night, yesterday was a very very loooong day.

On the subject of cutting tools (for V grooves), that will get the job done Dave. I have tried them but found the set up time to be more than what I wanted to deal with. I realize you were just showing another tool that would work btw.

Over the past years I have tried everything I could get my hands on (starting with the 90 degree router bits). I finally settled on this one:
http://wttool.com/p/0840-0155
Occasionally they can be hard to find, they are a little expensive, and sharpening is not cheap, but they do cut nice. Prior to this I used the HSS version. I found them to be poorly made, did not last long, and did not cut as cleanly.

Even with the cobalt cutters, I have them sharpened before I use them. I was fortunate enough to find a semi retired Tool & Die Maker that sharpens tools in his spare time, and can put an edge on a tool you can nearly shave with.

It's not the expense of the bit, it's having to go out and get a milling machine to handle the 7/8" cutter shank!!!

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

It's not the expense of the bit, it's having to go out and get a milling machine to handle the 7/8" cutter shank!!!

You are so right!!! Good ones definitely do not come cheap. But it's one of the best investments I have ever made in machinery. I made a fixture for cutting my V grooves in such a way that allows me to remove & replace it with very good repeatability. I find a lot of need for it and it doesn't get much rest. My wife named it "Millie". Millie is tall, heavy, works like a plow horse, and never complains. The Wife doesn't even mind that Millie has become the "other" woman in my life

 

[ScottR]

You are so right!!! Good ones definitely do not come cheap. But it's one of the best investments I have ever made in machinery. I made a fixture for cutting my V grooves in such a way that allows me to remove & replace it with very good repeatability. I find a lot of need for it and it doesn't get much rest. My wife named it "Millie". Millie is tall, heavy, works like a plow horse, and never complains. The Wife doesn't even mind that Millie has become the "other" woman in my life

Hmmmm. Does Millie have any cheap sisters??