Okay - Lets have it out! CNC vs. Non CNC'd made cues

[Jaden]

Those are the two bits I described.

And, because you know one way, then there are no other ways?

Who is the moron here?

The reason people cannot have this discussion on here is because people resort to name calling when they have no case.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/C1537
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shop...rthtml/pages/bt_ogee.html#edge_banding_anchor

Open your eyes and learn something, Jaden.

Can you prove that flat-bottomed is inferior? How? What about the v-groove cutting away part of the wood that has grown together and introducing new components that potentially have flaws and are not as interconnected?

If a computer runs the bit at an angle to the wood to create a v-groove, then the computer is not controlling it? HUH? Why is that more work? More work than what? What waste of effort?

Those are the two bits I described. There are only TWO types of ninety degree bits. One that points straight down and one that points off to the side.

I already described how v groove is superior. By having a perfectly meshed contact glued with pressure it forces out the air gaps and glue bubbles that form. It makes a contiguous piece of wood as opposed to many pieces of wood attached to each other. Another mistake many cue makers make, is in the joining of the different parts of a cue, some will join them with a screw in the center of the wood. This causes the energies involved in hitting the ball to force their way outward and disperse rather than going straight through the center of the cue. That is also why I'm developing a new joint that allows a true center wood to wood contact.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

You're so right, Fred.

I guarantee that this cue/forearm was built on a CNC machine. The v-grooves were cut with CNC using a 90 degree cutter. The veneers were mitered with CNC. The point stock was squared with CNC. And the whole cue was tapered with CNC.

Very nice Scott!!! Is that one that you made?

 

[PoolSleuth]

You're so right, Fred.

I guarantee that this cue/forearm was built on a CNC machine. The v-grooves were cut with CNC using a 90 degree cutter. The veneers were mitered with CNC. The point stock was squared with CNC. And the whole cue was tapered with CNC.

Nice Q....

 

[ScottR]

Very nice Scott!!! Is that one that you made?

I wish I had made it!

This is the work of JW Petree, who posts on here occasionally.

 

[ScottR]

AS a teaser, I know exactly how to do all of that fairly easily with a traditional router. Hell I could do it with a 1/2 inch drill some extra wood, some additional off the shelf hardware and a level.

Please educate me by showing the results of this 1/2" drill, scrap wood, level and misc. hardware method. I am open minded and would love to learn something new. Seriously.

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

A thought ocurred to me. I don't think the original question in this thread was ever answered. Maybe it was, but it seems the subject strayed quite a bit over to the "how to do it" side. Without going back to the original post, I believe it was "name the benefits of each" (CNC or non-CNC).

Also, as several posters have suggested, there is a lot of confusion as to what CNC actually is. There also seems to be confusion as to the proper (or at least accepted) definition of each type of jointery (full splice, half splice, etc).

In an effort to clear up some of the mysteries of the above, and to provide the layman with accurate information, would those of you that use CNC, and those of you that use manual machines, be willing to post a few the facts and/or benefits as you see them?

No priveleged information please!!! Although I do believe the end user should be somewhat versed on how things are done, I absolutely do not feel proprietery information should be shared. I will be the first to say that I will not share those techniques that I have worked for many years to develop. Mine may not be the best way to accomplish a certain task, but they are the methods I prefer.

Occasionally conversations like this end up in another flame war I know, but wouldn't it be nice for once to just share a little bit of knowledge and clear up all the "wives tales" (Excuse me ladies).

It could be done in a very simple format, such as:
My opinion is:
1. A full splice is blah, blah,blah
2. I prefer manual machines because of blah,blah,blah
3. I prefer CNC becaause of blah, blah,blah

I wouldn't mind kicking it off. I wouldn't be able to do it until later this evening though (got a lot to get done before dinner time).

What do you guys/girls think?

 

[TellsItLikeItIs]

I wish I had made it!

This is the work of JW Petree, who posts on here occasionally.

With your knowledge of building, I took you to be a cue maker.

 

[cueman]

I'll say it again..... how far back do we go to make "non-CNC" people happy? A foot-treadle-driven lathe, cutting with a bowl gouge?

Hey I have one of those. I might be the only cuemaker in the world who owns a treadle lathe. I once displayed it at a BCA booth with a sign that said "The Past" and a "The Present" on my Deluxe Cue Smith lathe. I told another lathe maker that it was the most advanced cue lathe out there because it didn't even need electricity. I didn't even get a smile out of him. Oh well, not everyone gets my sense of humor.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[ScottR]

With your knowledge of building, I took you to be a cue maker.

Thank you. I am an amateur woodworker, who has been privileged to see and participate in several of the aspects and methods to building cues. It started in 1977 with Bill Stroud giving me a tour of his shop and works in progress, and continues today through discussions with various current cue makers. The subject fascinates me endlessly.

 

[ScottR]

Hey I have one of those. I might be the only cuemaker in the world who owns a treadle lathe. I once displayed it at a BCA booth with a sign that said "The Past" and a "The Present" on my Deluxe Cue Smith lathe. I told another lathe maker that it was the most advanced cue lathe out there because it didn't even need electricity. I didn't even get a smile out of him. Oh well, not everyone gets my sense of humor.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

I get it. Good one! Heheh.

 

[pathman]

Hand Made

I don't know about all these arguments, but I can tell you what I like to see in a shop. Walk into Bill Schick's shop, Barry Szamboti's basement or Mike Johnson's storage building and you will see huge metal lathes converted to do the masters bidding, various smaller metal and wood lathes set up to do various tasks, and old Gorton Pantographs for the pretty stuff. No computers, no programmers, no designers. At Bill's shop at any given time, there will be a Bushka lying around for identification amongst chunks of Ivory and straps of leather and exotic skins for wraps. There is a wall of patterns that have been made by the hands and creative minds of these old-school builders that can easily rival the computer-jockey stuff. I'm not saying the new stuff is bad, just doesn't have the soul and grit that goes into the traditional cues in my opinion.

 

[DaveK]

Those are the two bits I described. There are only TWO types of ninety degree bits. One that points straight down and one that points off to the side.

Just because I sometime like to stir things up, and because there IS another very common bit that can be used to cut pockets with a 90 degree included angle. Of course it take a bit more geometric understanding to use that way, but it will absolutely cut 90 degree pockets. Note that the end mill shown is NOT a ball nose endmill

Sorry for the poor quality image, I did not spend much time on it, but it should illustrate the concept.

Dave

 

[bandido]

Mine may not be the best way to accomplish a certain task, but they are the methods I prefer.

2. I prefer manual machines because of blah,blah,blah
3. I prefer CNC becaause of blah, blah,blah

I wouldn't mind kicking it off. I wouldn't be able to do it until later this evening though (got a lot to get done before dinner time).

What do you guys/girls think?

I'll answer these two. There are inlays that can only be cut ACCURATELY with a CNC assisted cutter and there are cavities that can only be cut tight against the inlay by hand tool work.

Note: Lousy camera shooting through a magnifier visor.

 

[bandido]

Just because I sometime like to stir things up, and because there IS another very common bit that can be used to cut pockets with a 90 degree included angle. Of course it take a bit more geometric understanding to use that way, but it will absolutely cut 90 degree pockets. Note that the end mill shown is NOT a ball nose endmill

Sorry for the poor quality image, I did not spend much time on it, but it should illustrate the concept.

Dave

You're right and the v-spliced points in the photos that I posted above were done with such.

 

[PetreeCues]

I just can't help myself. This thread reminds me of Kindergarten class and since I am still a little kid at heart... here goes...

I've seen ScottR's work first hand. He made some points (I will post a picture later today) that are VERY respectable. I built a cue out of them and got told at the expo how beautiful it was by many people (including BARRY SZAMBOTI).

As for Jaden, I have to base my opinion on only the intelligence he has presented to us here, which leads me to want to say that I'll loan him my entire shop, router table, table saws, CNC machine, lathes and wood, and wager $100 that he can't make a golf tee that functions correctly.

I would say that I've done it both ways, but there are actually more than 2 ways to do it (cut points). I have personally used a CNC to cut them, as well as done it manually on a router table, and with both rounds and squares. Both ways produce fruit. Both require knowledge and skill. Both are actually work. A guy who does it one way is no better or worse than the guy who does it the other way, certainly not just because of the method each uses. Sheesh. I always thought the best way was the way that produced the best result, myself. But, I mean, that's just me talking. I've only been learning to build cues for 6 years and I still am not sure I have seen what I would call the best way.

 

[skins]

I'll answer these two. There are inlays that can only be cut ACCURATELY with a CNC assisted cutter (that's not true. a pantograph does equally as good a job) and there are cavities that can only be cut tight against the inlay by hand tool work. (this is also false. the right cnc machine with the right cutters can do any pocket. if you want zero radius it just takes allot more prep work on the parts)

Note: Lousy camera shooting through a magnifier visor.

anything by older machining methods can be done with cnc.

 

[skins]

I would say that I've done it both ways, but there are actually more than 2 ways to do it (cut points). I have personally used a CNC to cut them, as well as done it manually on a router table, and with both rounds and squares. Both ways produce fruit. Both require knowledge and skill. Both are actually work. A guy who does it one way is no better or worse than the guy who does it the other way, certainly not just because of the method each uses. Sheesh. I always thought the best way was the way that produced the best result, myself. But, I mean, that's just me talking. I've only been learning to build cues for 6 years and I still am not sure I have seen what I would call the best way.

thanks for your input. this is a very wise response.

 

[bandido]

anything by older machining methods can be done with cnc.

You mentioned prep work on the parts for zero radius. What part on the cavity and what kind of prepping? This may be something new for me to learn. You're talking about pocketing with a rotating bit right?

You're right about the Phanto, I completely forgot about that. Plus I'm still fairly new with CNC tech as I just completed my machine. Still code manually as I still haven't gotten to the Mastercam part yet.

 

[skins]

You mentioned prep work on the parts for zero radius. What part on the cavity and what kind of prepping? This may be something new for me to learn. You're talking about pocketing with a rotating bit right?

You're right about the Phanto, I completely forgot about that. Plus I'm still fairly new with CNC tech as I just completed my machine. Still code manually as I still haven't gotten to the Mastercam part yet.

you can use different cutters with varying degrees to cut the pocket tips similar to a slopped v-groove. you have to setup the piece to at certain angle depending on the length of the cut or use the right cnc machine and software to actually either manipulate the piece or the spindle to do the same. i'm not saying any of this is easy nor cheap but it can be done with the right machinery or technique. as far as prep work you would have to hand "compound" taper the bottoms of the inlays to fit the "sloped" pocket.

 

[pawnmon]

I thinl that there are appropriate uses for CNC. Personally I prefer hand done points. The inlays can be by hand or CNC. Some inlays cannot be done by hand. One of the most respected cue makers in the business (Black Boar) does all the points the traditional way and much of the inlay work by CNC.