OKay - This referee thing has gone too far!

[Snapshot9]

I had a situation in a tournament last Friday night that I am not happy with at all, and will be voicing my complaint to the room owner.

I was playing in a $20 entry 9 ball tournament, short race to 5, no handicaps, with a calcutta with 16 players. I won my first 2 matches and was playing in the quarterfinals on the winners side to see who would be playing in the semi's on the winners side.

Here was the situation. I was playing another player that is very good, a lefty, that shoots about Luc Salvas's speed, both in Tempo and skill level.
This player is very gregarious type personality, and gets extremely loud sometimes. He is also a very good winner, and voices his enthusiasm for such, and a very poor loser, especially to anyone that he himself does not recognize as being clearly better than him. He sometimes gets to going too fast, and will make a mistake or two that will cost him against a real good player, but often gets away with it with lessor players.

I was leading in the match, 4-2, and he approached the table to shoot the 4 with no pocket to go to. The 5 was right beside the 4 to the left a little, so he elected to shoot the 4 into the 9, not to make the 9 really, but to hide the 4 behind the 5. He intended to roll up behind the 5 with the cue ball hooking me on the 4. Well, there didn't look to be any problem playing the shot, but he shot too easy and neither the 4 nor the 9 ball hit a rail, so I called a foul on him. The resulting layout left me with an almost straight in 4-9 combination in the corner, the 9 only being about
5-6" from the corner pocket. He immediately got loud and started rushing around, like he always does when he is getting beat, and claimed I could not call a foul because a referee had not watched the shot, and went up to the tournament director to ask him. Now, on my side, the guy that bought me in the calcutta was watching me play and said there was no rail, and another spectator I know (and he knows) said there was no rail hit. The tournament director said it was no foul because a referee didn't watch the shot.

This is absolutely INSANE because many shots are shot where there is no real danger of a foul, but players make mistakes,and a foul occurs and one player gets ball in hand as a result. I lodged an official protest to the tournament director, more or less told him what I thought of his ridiculous ruling, and told him I would be talking to the room owner (who is much much more experienced with Pool than the tournament director). My opponent carried and carried on loudly protesting it was not a foul because no referee was there, so I said the hell with it, and went ahead and shot. Well, it turned out, he won that game, and 2 more to win the match from me, but only after 'cheating' me out of my ball in hand on the obvious foul he comitted. I refused to let the issue die, and told him I would replay the end of the match over from 3-3 or a race to 2.

We went back and forth, then he said we would just play the match over, which I thought he meant the complete match over, but when he jumped up 2-0, he said he won (he got breaks in first 2 games with combos).
Anyway, I gave in since I said to replay from 3-3, but he knew he fouled in the original match, but still took the win.

I was on my way to a rematch with him for the winner of the loser's bracket, but derailed myself on the match before when I let down on 2 shots that swung the match away from me, so I ended up taking 4th, and the other guy took 2nd (where I probably would have been).

The tournament had several strong players in it (they all turned out for the first no handicap tournament in a long time). Jr. Brown showed up to play after being absent from the Pool scene here for a long time, and won the tournament, shooting pretty good, BTW.

My point is this: Players claiming no foul after obviously committing a foul just because no referee watched the shot is BULLSHIT. Before refs, the opponent called all fouls, and if contended was debated and resolved between the players. To me, this type of player undermines the whole purpose of rules of the game to begin with, and yes, he only cares about winning - nothing else. I don't mind losing a good match, but I do not want to be cheated out of it. I know about 'pushing' the rules sometimes, but this was a downright blatant usurping of the rules, IMO.

 

[randyg]

Scott; doesn't have anything to do with a Ref, take it up with the TD.

 

[sjm]

A sad story. Some are so deperate to win that they will compromise their sense of fair play to do so, and it's always sad when a referee does not make every possible attempt to gather as much information as possible when making a decision in such situations.

At the IPT event in Vegas, Shannon Daulton, desperate for a win in a second round matchup against Thomas Storm, noticed that as Storm pocketed the eight ball to go up 5 - 3 in the race to eight, he touched the cue ball just before it came to a complete stop, an infraction that is so common and so accepted that I haven't seen it called a foul in twenty years (in fact, I'd bet that this infraction has occurred over 100 times in televised nine ball alone without it being called even once). There was absolutely no chance that the cue ball would have gone into a pocket. A referee was called over by Daulton and asked to rule on the shot, and I was impressed that the referee asked all onlookers whether a) the cue ball had come to a stop, and b) if not, was there any chance at all that it would have gone into a pocket. There was consensus that the cue ball had not come to a stop and that there was absolutely no chance it would have gone into a pocket. Still, the referee, acting wisely once again, chose to defer to head referee and tournament director Charlie Ursitti. I was impressed that Ursitti would have none of this, and awarded the game to Storm, while issuing a warning that a repeat infraction would be called.

A good referee would have gotten your situation right, and the IPT match I've noted points the way that good referees operate.

 

[Cuedog]

Rules

It's sad that some players stoop to such low levels. Unfortunately, rules are rules. Technically this jerk is correct. The IPT has a rule where players must call a foul on themselves if they know one has occurred. Sorry to say, most local events have no such rule.

I feel things ought to go back to where the onlookers (spectators) are polled to get to the truth. However. this is not all that the final decision should be based on. But, when it's all said and done, there is no rule that will be foolproof.

Gene

 

[sjm]

It's sad that some players stoop to such low levels. Unfortunately, rules are rules. Technically this jerk is correct.

Sad, but true. The laws of pool are not unlike the laws of the land in that there are those empowered to interpret them and apply them in a way that gives greater weight to the spirit of the law is given greater weight than the letter of the law.

Pool referees have, in my view, taken an unfair bashing of late here on the forum, but I believe that, on the whole, they do exceptional work, and have a job that is harder than many would have us all believe.

 

[cheesemouse]

Another case of pool exposing character rather than building character...to bad some players are so desperate to win they will do such things but rest assured he will pay somehow...you just have to suck it up and move on with your game. I can't even count the number of times I have screwed by these desparatos. You will get over it

 

[rackmsuckr]

A sad story. Some are so deperate to win that they will compromise their sense of fair play to do so, and it's always sad when a referee does not make every possible attempt to gather as much information as possible when making a decision in such situations.

At the IPT event in Vegas, Shannon Daulton, desperate for a win in a second round matchup against Thomas Storm, noticed that as Storm pocketed the eight ball to go up 5 - 3 in the race to eight, he touched the cue ball just before it came to a complete stop, an infraction that is so common and so accepted that I haven't seen it called a foul in twenty years (in fact, I'd bet that this infraction has occurred over 100 times in televised nine ball alone without it being called even once). There was absolutely no chance that the cue ball would have gone into a pocket. A referee was called over by Daulton and asked to rule on the shot, and I was impressed that the referee asked all onlookers whether a) the cue ball had come to a stop, and b) if not, was there any chance at all that it would have gone into a pocket. There was consensus that the cue ball had not come to a stop and that there was absolutely no chance it would have gone into a pocket. Still, the referee, acting wisely once again, chose to defer to head referee and tournament director Charlie Ursitti. I was impressed that Ursitti would have none of this, and awarded the game to Storm, while issuing a warning that a repeat infraction would be called.

A good referee would have gotten your situation right, and the IPT match I've noted points the way that good referees operate.

Yes, that is a sad story too, but not as bad as the SAME situation happened to my husband against Brian Groce in the first match of the 2nd round. The ball was barely moving after Mike made the 8, and he scooted the balls down table so Brian could rack. The ref awarded the game to Brian instead of Mike!!! That made it 5-3 instead of 4-4 and blew his emotions for the rest of the day. We saw many people doing it and only getting warnings. Mike did not object or make waves because he did not want to be seen as a troublemaker.

As far as Snapshot9's ruling, I totally understand. I even had someone tell me I could have BIH and then said she didn't, so I am standing there with the ball in my hand and the ref goes and awards it to her!

People do need to start learning to call fouls on themselves. I did it twice in the IPT tournament, one, my opponent didn't even know why I was handing him the cueball. It was because I felt the double hit on my follow through.

 

[vagabond]

At the IPT event in Vegas, Shannon Daulton, desperate for a win in a second round matchup against Thomas Storm, noticed that as Storm pocketed the eight ball to go up 5 - 3 in the race to eight, he touched the cue ball just before it came to a complete stop, an infraction that is so common and so accepted that I haven't seen it called a foul in twenty years (in fact, I'd bet that this infraction has occurred over 100 times in televised nine ball alone without it being called

why this refusal to follow the law. It does n`t matter whether the cue is going towards the pocket or not.I go by the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law.One time I was playing a money game with one of those past US Open 9 ball champions.He picked the cue ball before it came to a stop.I put the score in my favor and I told him that I didn`t give a dam for his status in pool hirarchy and he broke the law and I am taking the game.He knew not to mess with me because I will be waiting for him in the Parking lot.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

If it was not a foul because the referee did not see the shot---"smarten up"---use it to your advantage when you need it.

When in Rome---do as the Romans do.

 

[poolhall maven]

snapshot 9, you were robbed pure and simple. No ref needed to be called since the situation did not warrant it. Your opponent is a liar! He did not hit a rail and you should've stood your ground. You really can tell a lot about a person by the way they play pool...
PHM

 

[NINEBALLART]

Just happened to me last week in a tournament. An 8 ball, bar tournament, BCA rules...
I play a hook on my opponet and he kicks at it, hits the rail first and bounces into his 6 ball and it goes about 3 inches. So I say, "ball in hand, right?" and start to reach for the cue ball....He says, no. I hit a rail...I said, yeah, before you hit your ball. He argued so I let it so. Beat him anyway..
Then later I play his girlfriend, whom I have known for a long time, she hits the 8 first, cue ball glances off, hits her 3 ball and the 3 goes in. Before I can get off my stool she shoots again.....Then she wins the match. So I told her what she had done and she said, "why didn't you tell me?"... I said i was going to but why didn't you tell me? It was so obivious? I thought we were friends. Oh, I did not see it she says.

I meet her in the finals and beat her so I felt better but not about players trying to win by cheating...
She comes up later and shakes my hand and I said to her, "I found out a lot more about you tonight then I knew before." I will watch our games with you and your boyfriend more closer now....
Gave her something to think about....

 

[Tommy Joe]

I put the score in my favor and I told him that I didn`t give a dam for his status in pool hirarchy and he broke the law and I am taking the game.He knew not to mess with me because I will be waiting for him in the Parking lot.

I haven't seen a good pool game in person in years but watch them when they show up on tv. First time I saw a ref wearing those white surgical type gloves I said to myself, "What's up with the gloves, what is this, a professional boxing match or what?" Now I know why the refs wear those stupid looking gloves - in case the players get violent and a boxing match breaks out.

Tommy Joe

 

[poolhall maven]

Just happened to me last week in a tournament. An 8 ball, bar tournament, BCA rules...
I play a hook on my opponet and he kicks at it, hits the rail first and bounces into his 6 ball and it goes about 3 inches. So I say, "ball in hand, right?" and start to reach for the cue ball....He says, no. I hit a rail...I said, yeah, before you hit your ball. He argued so I let it so. Beat him anyway..
Then later I play his girlfriend, whom I have known for a long time, she hits the 8 first, cue ball glances off, hits her 3 ball and the 3 goes in. Before I can get off my stool she shoots again.....Then she wins the match. So I told her what she had done and she said, "why didn't you tell me?"... I said i was going to but why didn't you tell me? It was so obivious? I thought we were friends. Oh, I did not see it she says.

I meet her in the finals and beat her so I felt better but not about players trying to win by cheating...
She comes up later and shakes my hand and I said to her, "I found out a lot more about you tonight then I knew before." I will watch our games with you and your boyfriend more closer now....
Gave her something to think about....

You got that right! What is it with people, are they such novices that they don't understand the rules...I frequently had to tell my opponents (in a bar league) that you must hit a rail after contacting the object ball. Even the darn captains of the team were too dumb to understand the rules...sheesh! I called up the league president and asked him to explain the rule in writing on the score sheet ... I don't play league pool anymore...
phm

 

[digitalcrack]

Tournaments are tough

There are lots of dishonest people out there also. One time I played in a 9 ball weekly tournament at Hawaiian Brians and I was talking to a friend while my opponent was shooting. And I turned around and the 9 ball was gone. I mean there was no way the 9 could have went in based on the layout I left him. This is a C class player and I know the angles pretty well. I know I shouldnt assume anything but I watch this guy in another tournament and he had ball in hand from his opponent. I turned around and glanced at something. I looked back and he had ball in hand again. I was like wtf. There is no way his opponent got up to shoot again in that short of a span. Anyways, always watch the table when playing and always call an impartial referee when your opponent or you shoots an interesting shot.

 

[Tommy Joe]

People do need to start learning to call fouls on themselves. I did it twice in the IPT tournament, one, my opponent didn't even know why I was handing him the cueball. It was because I felt the double hit on my follow through.

Thanks for that one. The topic of rules enforcement has always intrigued me. Your post reminds me of something I thought of years ago. Here it is:

It's the final game of the World Series, bottom of the ninth, two out, a runner on third. They need one run to tie the game. The batter hits a slow-roller toward short-stop. It seems an eternity before he's able to scoop it up. There's not enough time to throw it home, but if he nails the guy at first they win the game. So he throws to first and the ump screams, "Safe", as the runner crosses the bag and the hometown crowd roars it's approval.

But what a minute, what the hell is this? The batter is walking away from first-base, shaking his head side to side. The crowd is going nuts. What the hell is going on? Then they realize he's calling himself out. He's telling the ump he didn't get there before the throw. He ought to know, he was closer to the play than anyone. The crowd is going insane. Then the player and ump get into a big argument that turns into an all-out brawl as cops storm the field to escort the player through the stadium tunnel away from his dangerously angry fans and team-mates.

Tommy Joe

 

[td873]

I know about 'pushing' the rules sometimes, but this was a downright blatant usurping of the rules, IMO.

It does happen, even at the top echelon.

Here's one example that I saw in NY during the World Summit of Pool at Amsterdam on the East side (now closed). It was with 2 pro players, who will remain anonymous here.

The rules for non-TV tables were cue ball fouls only, with opponent option to replace accidentally moved balls. Well, one guy breaks and leaves a cluster of 3 balls tightly together near the rail (about 1/2 way between side and corner pocket). The cue ball isn't really close to this cluster, maybe a diamond away - but shooting away from the pack towards the far corner. Anyway, the player shoots and exagerates his stroke to make his hand hit the 3 ball cluster. Of course the opponent can't remember where the balls were, so he lets them stay where they landed, and he ends up losing that game. The VERY NEXT GAME, the same shooter uses the exact same tactic to break up the 8-9 when he was shooting the 3 ball. He just bumps it with his hand - it wasn't something that could have happened on accident, and if you were watching, you would know he did it so that he could run out. The opponent put the balls back, but they weren't "locked" anymore, since he couldn't remember where they started.

This was a blatant manipulation of the "cue ball fouls" only rule. Not only was it sad to see, it was by pro players, at a pro tournament, with Scott Smitch refereeing the tourney.

So don't feel bad about one guy at one $20 tourney. This BS happens all over the country by all levels of players -> when winning is more important than character, it's no surprise that some players will cheat.

-td

 

[Tommy Joe]

This was a blatant manipulation of the "cue ball fouls" only rule. Not only was it sad to see, it was by pro players, at a pro tournament, with Scott Smitch refereeing the tourney.-td

What I'm going to say applies to all rules, not just those of pool Any rule that can be blatantly manipulated is not a good rule. I'm not excusing unethical behavior, but when rules are weak they will be broken.

Tommy Joe

 

[Gerry]

Here's a way to stop what happened....make it a foul to shoot while the ref isn't watching. If the guy can cheat by saying the ref didn't see it. Thats the only thing I can think of to stop that situaion.

Gerry

 

[Gregg]

I'm really torn where the "***Official*** unwritten code of ethics of all billiard and pool players" ends and where the official rules of the league/tournament begin.

On one hand, I play in leagues because the rules are the rules, everyone knows them, and follows them.

But on the other hand, people talk about the IPT ref who used his own judgment about a rolling cue ball being picked up right before a dead stop, to NOT call a foul.

How about the ref who DID call foul on Allison Fisher for positioning the cue ball prior to breaking? We all know that this is a wishy washy mamby pambly rule, and nobody anywhere ever would call a foul as per the "Unwritten rules".

But my point is this; we give a ref too much power when the are playing judge, jury and prosecutor by allowing them when to apply the rules, and when not to.

IMO, if you MUST, playing the strict text of the rules is the best way to avoid conflict. That's why they are there.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Thanks for that one. The topic of rules enforcement has always intrigued me. Your post reminds me of something I thought of years ago. Here it is:

It's the final game of the World Series, bottom of the ninth, two out, a runner on third. They need one run to tie the game. The batter hits a slow-roller toward short-stop. It seems an eternity before he's able to scoop it up. There's not enough time to throw it home, but if he nails the guy at first they win the game. So he throws to first and the ump screams, "Safe", as the runner crosses the bag and the hometown crowd roars it's approval.

But what a minute, what the hell is this? The batter is walking away from first-base, shaking his head side to side. The crowd is going nuts. What the hell is going on? Then they realize he's calling himself out. He's telling the ump he didn't get there before the throw. He ought to know, he was closer to the play than anyone. The crowd is going insane. Then the player and ump get into a big argument that turns into an all-out brawl as cops storm the field to escort the player through the stadium tunnel away from his dangerously angry fans and team-mates.

Tommy Joe

In most sports such as Baseball, Football, Basketball, etc. it is part of the game to take advantage of the referees being out of position to see the infraction. Even if you know he makes a good call---it is good game to argue.

In golf it is called good sportsmanship to call a foul on yourself.

In pool, it is a grey area. The honest will be taken advantage of and the dishonest will take advantage.