Old Wive's tales are true! and an ethics question..

PlynSets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So last night we went out to a tournament we never played before and found a "gem." Not just any gem, but I'm talking about something I didn't believe existed until last night. Sure I've heard rumours, and old wives tales, and eaves dropped on hustlers whispering in the corner about it, but I gotta admit I've never seen it personally.

I always filed it under "too good to be true" category. What is it you ask? Well a great analogy would be to a fishermen it's a lake so full of fish that when you drop a hook in the water the fish don't bite it they just jump in the boat. Not just in the boat, but jump in open the live well then jump in their smiling and happy to be there like it was there purpose in life, and they were just waiting for the guy to put the boat in the water.

"BangerVille..." Yes folks it does exist. I'm not joking in the least.

Now historically I've heard of places like this, and it's always been my experience that you can go into one and win a little money, but right about the time your working your way through the crowd "the guy" walks in.

This guy is one of two people. Either he's an "A" player that hangs out in the joint becuase everyone kisses his ass and he likes to feel important. (Also thinks he's gods gift to pool, but honestly would get drilled under pressure with someone firing back at him) Tough to beat none the less though for a B player like me, but doable if you show a little heart and put the "fear" in him..

Or he's a low B, high C player that knows just enough about the game to know he's gonna get robbed. Either way they both do the same routine of killing any action you had in the joint before they got there, if he's the low B high C they usually want some outlandish weight that's damn near impossible to give.. And then they brag to their friends about how they outsmarted you.

In instance # 1 the "A" player steps up and you'll end up working your ass off all night only to win a few measily crumpled up dollars he had in his pocket that usually wasn't worth putting up with his arrogant ass attitude, or listening to the peanut gallery all night talk about their "hero." There's alot of reasons a decent player would hang out with a bunch of bangers, but that's a whole different thread.. Right now we have to get back to this mystical place called "bangerville."

The point of it is there doesn't seem to be "the guy" here at bangerville.. I've looked around and I can't see him, the tourney is getting ready to start and he hasn't shown up yet? Can it be true, could this in fact be the kind of place I've heard about so many times? For me it's almost like witnessing some mythical creature walk by me.. I'm not quite sure how to react?

Now as most of you know I'm an average "B" player down here in S.D. nothing to write home about if ya know what I'm saying.. I can get out occasionally but it's not every rack. My roomate plays almost exactly my speed (damn near all of our sets go hill hill) and my g/f is a D player. If she runs 3 - 4 balls I'm pretty impressed. We all three enter this tournament, and grab 2 tables for warming up. The tables are nice tables, but they've seen better days. They play straight enough though so we're good in that department. About 20 minutes later more and more people start showing up. This might be a pretty good turn out after all?

Now the amazing thing is there's some pretty freaky people out there that play pool as their social outlet I'd guess you'd say.. But usually their the minority, there's the old moon doggy (50 year old surfer), the tall skinny guy that you think might be a child molester, the long haired kid that smoked entirely too much weed wearing the "SLAYER" shirt, and of course his buddy that follows him around.. (They always come in 2's..LOL) The buddy doesn't play just gets drunk. These are pretty typical of any pool hall around here, but again it's usually 2 or 3, in the crowd.

Every single person that walked in this place was a weirdo. It reminded me of a nightime coffee shop in the early 90's if any of y'all remember that explosion. There was EMO's, Metrosexuals, Punk kids, some old druggy, and the list goes on and on.. What they all have in common is graphite pool cues, (or other) and absolutely no concept of the game, or for that matter just about anything to do with pool.

More importantly they don't want to know, they are perfectly content in their own world knowing that they can match up against the EMO kid or other. Not one of them has any concept of shape, and the best in the group is practicing his draw shot with the old Pop the cue ball as hard as ya can then jumping up and backwards as if the cue ball is suppose to follow him or something? (don't ask me I dunno) Incidentally for the haters, I tried to give him some tips and he would have none of it.

The tourney completely fills up, and we start our matches. I'll save you the long and short of it... It's bangerville, this thing is a lock. The only way I'm going to lose this deal is if I happen to run into my roomate in the 1st round, in which case I'll take the scenic route up the losers side and still not be worried about it. All three of us are spread across the board though so it's looking like we don't have to face each other till way down the line so no worries there. Now I'm running through the field like a damn track star.. My roomate through sheer bad luck and short sets ended up losing a match to one of these guys.. Now he's running up the losers side like his ass is on fire. Shooting lights out, and literally running every rack I saw him shoot. (Point in fact best I've ever seen him play)

Now, on every match (damn near) that I ever play in tourney's I ask the age ole "Hey do ya want to throw something on the side?" In this hall I elected for 5 bucks on the side.. (Didn't want to push my luck) In my first match the guys said "Well hell yeah, now we're talking." I actually gasped at the response becuase it surely wasn't what I was expecting. I responded with "really? well ok then." Any poker player in the world would've got a read on my face and the pocket aces in the hole, but hey if the guy wants to play then we'll play right? Now the amazing thing is while I'm going through the field, more then one guy said yes, and all of them were actually excited about it? (Note back to the fish jumping in the boat before I even get the hook in the water..) I am honestly a little taken back by the enthusiam and how quickly these people are wanting to make deposits into my wallet like it was an ATM or something.

Part II coming next...

DJ
 
Last edited:
Part Deuce..

Now the tournament was a full field so the payouts are actually pretty good for a local tournament in this area. 1st is over 100 bucks, with second being around half of that. My girlfriend had won 3 matches, and I had won 3 matches (don't quote me on that but I think it's 3) and in a 16 player field that means I play her to sit on the hill.. So now I'm thinking about this for a second, If I play her and I beat her then she's sitting in 3rd and and is going to have to play somebody for second.. 50/50 odds.. Or I can forfeith my match against her, and lock her in second and I get to play somebody for 3rd on the Losers side (90/10 odds) and then split 1st and second with her..

------------------------------

So there in lies the ethics question.. Do you guys see anything wrong with forfeiting a match to your chick, becuase it makes more sense for the stronger player to try to finish the field? There was one guy at the tournament that was kind of torque'd about me just flat forfeiting a match to my chick. I ended up telling the tournament director, "I think it'd be more shady for me to play her and intentionally lose then for me to come and flat tell you that I'd like to forfeit my match to my g/f..." He laughed when I said "Well would you want to ride home with your chick if you just drilled her in a tourney?" LOL.. As far as the guy that was pissing and moaning, I asked him "Would you be complaining if I forfeited my match against you?" Ahhh silence is golden.

In any event, I thought about for a few minutes after the fact.. Is it ethical to intentionally put your weaker player in a money spot when the odds are that you can come back through the field to take both 1st and second? I'm kinda tossed up on it.. In any event, i did what I did, locked her into second, drilled the next guy then split 1st and 2nd. My roomate had to play a guy, and he broke ran to the 4 and had to do some ridiculous break out shot. The guy he's playing hasn't made more then 2 balls all night so he's not worried about. Left the guy somewhat safe, and the guy forest gump'd his way through the entire rack.. LOL He blasted that 4, shit it in, landed perfect on the 5, blasted the 5 went 4 rails and landed on the 6 etc.. LOL It was honestly one of the most amazing thing I've ever seen. Roomy ended up running a rack, then missing an 8 which put this guy ahead so he took 4th. I played the guy, he broke nothing fell. Ran 1, 2, 3-9 combination is frozen and dead into the corner. I broke, ran 1 - 5 and the 5-9 was again dead. His only shot during the match was his 1st break. To be honest I sent my g/f to the counter to buy this shaft slicker product I wanted to try, and asked the waitress for a beer. By the time either one of them came back the match was already over.


I love bangerville.. I felt like a damn world champion when I walked out of that place. Ya know you go down to some of these tough ass tournaments and your not there to win.. Your there to get to play some REALLY talented players for cheap and to learn what ya can in that quick race to III. Occasionally ya might come out on top, but lets face it.. Down at Oncue Sam Manole (sp?) giving me the 8 ball isn't a fair set.. Steve Aitkens, same thing.. Both these guys would easily offer up the 7 ball (probably more) to gamble and probably still have the better of the game. Last night though, last night I walked out of that pool hall feeling like what one of those short stops feels like damn near everytime they walk into a place and run into some guy like me. Ya already know they have no chance, and your just running through the motions.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a rapist or anything.. I'm not going to be frequenting bangerville every week to supplement my income. I'll just go down there every once in awhile when the old ego needs a boost.. Or if I'm in a slump and need to come out of it. I tend to like to play people better then me, more so then people worse.. As far as taking care of the hall, well I felt oblidged to kick down to the hall. We had a 45'ish dollar bar tab, and I tipped the waitress(es) pretty heavily on our way out.

DJ
 
Last edited:
IMO, forfeiting the game to your g/f should have resulted in a hand-raising experience ;) !!! I mean, she owes you big time :D :D :D.

Maniac
 
so... you gonna share with your fellow sandiegans?

The location of this paradise?
I thought not.... :)

I think you made the right choice, and if you ever want to get in some decent practice down at On Cue. Look me up.
 
Plynsets,

Good story. I was wondering about the ethical part of this dilemma for about four years now off and on. This is because i came across the same situation with my ex, we had to play each other for the winners bracket. I let her win and went on to defend the losers side against Little Al Mason. But if i was to lose that match he would have beaten her easy. So the ethical part has been waying on mind mind. Was it right or wrong for either of us to do this?
 
PlynSets said:
Or I can forfeith my match against her, and lock her in second and I get to play somebody for 3rd on the Losers side (90/10 odds) and then split 1st and second with her..

------------------------------

So there in lies the ethics question.. Do you guys see anything wrong with forfeiting a match to your chick, becuase it makes more sense for the stronger player to try to finish the field? There was one guy at the tournament that was kind of torque'd about me just flat forfeiting a match to my chick. I ended up telling the tournament director, "I think it'd be more shady for me to play her and intentionally lose then for me to come and flat tell you that I'd like to forfeit my match to my g/f..." DJ

Seriously... I was not able to read past this part at all. What would be "less shady" than either of your alternatives would be if both you and your gf both played your best, and let the chips fall where they may. You may have denied someone the chance to play you twice, as he could have lost to you in the winner's bracket finals, played through the rest of the loser's bracket, and met you again for the tournament.

You will get no love on this forum saying you dumped a match on purpose. Period. Your gf entered the tournament knowing you play better than her. Much better. So she had to know there would be the possibility that you would beat her at some point in the tournament. If she can't abide by that, then she shouldn't play. If that will cause friction in your relationship, and you actually care about that, well that means you love her more than the game, so you should never play in a tournament with her. My wife and I play sometimes. I beat her brains in on the table. I've never intentionally let her win a game, in our 9 years of marriage. I told her while we were still dating I try my hardest on every game, against every opponent. I feel I owe it to my opponent to make them play hard. She has dealt with it.

I think I am going to go hit something now.
 
Dr.DreckDonkey said:
Plynsets,

Good story. I was wondering about the ethical part of this dilemma for about four years now off and on. This is because i came across the same situation with my ex, we had to play each other for the winners bracket. I let her win and went on to defend the losers side against Little Al Mason. But if i was to lose that match he would have beaten her easy. So the ethical part has been waying on mind mind. Was it right or wrong for either of us to do this?

IMHO, absolutely wrong. Any time you intentionally dump a match, it is wrong. Just plain wrong. I don't hang out with pool players who do this sort of thing. Instills a loser mentality.

Russ
 
Russ Chewning said:
Seriously... I was not able to read past this part at all. What would be "less shady" than either of your alternatives would be if both you and your gf both played your best, and let the chips fall where they may. You may have denied someone the chance to play you twice, as he could have lost to you in the winner's bracket finals, played through the rest of the loser's bracket, and met you again for the tournament.

You will get no love on this forum saying you dumped a match on purpose.

You see now that's kinda the same thing I thought, that's why I didn't "dump" I forfeited..
Period. Your gf entered the tournament knowing you play better than her. Much better. So she had to know there would be the possibility that you would beat her at some point in the tournament. If she can't abide by that, then she shouldn't play.

She can abide by it, and knows it. To be honest she's been learning alot, but she's pretty well aware that she's "dead money" in a tournament. I.E. Stands no chance of winning, she does it becuase she likes to play different people and the experience.

If that will cause friction in your relationship, and you actually care about that, well that means you love her more than the game, so you should never play in a tournament with her.

God I should sure hope I love her more then the game?

My wife and I play sometimes. I beat her brains in on the table. I've never intentionally let her win a game, in our 9 years of marriage. I told her while we were still dating I try my hardest on every game, against every opponent. I feel I owe it to my opponent to make them play hard. She has dealt with it.

I think I am going to go hit something now.



IMHO, absolutely wrong. Any time you intentionally dump a match, it is wrong. Just plain wrong. I don't hang out with pool players who do this sort of thing. Instills a loser mentality.

Russ

Well ya see now Russ that's the thing I didn't "dump" I actually just told the tournament director that I forfeit that particular match. If by winning the tournmanent you collect the money, I looked at what I was doing as maximizing the profits with little risk. I knew I could lock her into second place at a minimum and the "gamble" or risk of me getting knocked out was very low.. So I figured I could drill the next guy and come back to collect 1st and 2nd (split) instead of a potential 1 and 3rd split..

I do agree with you though.. Something just didn't feel "right" about it. Can't put my finger on what it is, but seeing the smile on my girls face becuase this is the 1st time she's placed in a tournament (let alone split 1st n 2nd) made me quickly get over it...

The ethics though... It's a seriously on the fence thing for me. I can't particularly see what's wrong with taking your chances to maximise your winnings (hell that's the nature of gambling).. I didn't "dump" or do anything, I laid it out on the table and told the TD I planned on forfeitting.. To my knowledge a person can forfeith a match for any reason? So nothing wrong with that..

Just seems like I "legally" took advantage of the situation I'd guess you'd say.

(I'm trying my best to be non argumenative here Russ, figured we could start over on a new leaf kinda deal) ;)

DJ
 
Last edited:
MrLucky said:
truer words were never spoken! Damn and two parts too boot!:rolleyes:

Oh jesus.. I'm not full of myself. I spent half my morning trying to write a story and make it entertaining for y'all to read. Perhaps I should've just left out all the fluff and got to the ethics question.

As far as the 2 parts full of myself. I'm the same guy I was yesterday, and will be tomorrow. I don't play any better then I did yesterday, or will tomorrow.. (In my opinion not that good.. but better then some?)

If your asking if I'm full of myself becuase I know I'm better then the guys down at bangerville? Well I do.. That's not being full of myself that's a fact. I'll gladly admit I'm not better then alot of the guys down at Oncue.. Does that make me meek or a realist?

DJ
 
Last edited:
Ignore the guff - its a good story and a fairly interesting question. I think once the td says its good its open season myself. my two pennies.
 
1pRoscoe said:
What you just described is done by a bf/gf pair in Austin on a weekly basis.....

Well I'm not sure of your relationship with those people so lets set them aside for a second on whether you like them or not. What's your take on it? If a guy and his "partner" (doesn't even have to be his g/f, but maybe someone he staked to get into the tourny) end up facing each other in that same tourny.

Is it ethical for them to look at the tournament board, and weigh the odds of how which guy stands the best chance of winning, and then let him either proceed (or in this rare case not proceed) based upon that decision?
DJ
 
That's tough. The point about "would you complain if I had forfeited to you?" is interesting. I don't think what you did was the end of the world, and it's not something that is going to come up that often. I'd be awfully tempted anyways... Now I feel bad about myself. I'm rotten!
 
PlynSets said:
Well I'm not sure of your relationship with those people so lets set them aside for a second on whether you like them or not. What's your take on it? If a guy and his "partner" (doesn't even have to be his g/f, but maybe someone he staked to get into the tourny) end up facing each other in that same tourny.

Is it ethical for them to look at the tournament board, and weigh the odds of how which guy stands the best chance of winning, and then let him either proceed (or in this rare case not proceed) based upon that decision?
DJ

I always felt a little funny about it, but it was the norm and has been the norm as long as I've been around pool. I forfeited to a friend of mine once because I was playing cards and the owner got so pissed he 86'ed me. It's usually safer to just dump I guess.

Cheers,
RC
 
Great post and interesting question.

The difference between dumping and forfeiting. Hmm...

Anyone care to define the difference between the two?

Forfeiting: Giving up, knowing that the outcome is a loss (i.e. Not making the opponent shoot a very easy 9-ball because you know it's a gimme or quitting a set because you know for a fact that you're gonna lose).

Dumping: Giving up, even though you know that you could or very well may win the match.

I think what you did was dump. Regardless of wether the tourney director knew it or not, you dumped. You just let everyone know you were dumping.

Letting everyone know that you're doing something wrong, doesn't make it right. Extreme example: I tell you I'm gonna kill you, then I do it. I'm still wrong for doing it.
 
arsenius said:
That's tough. The point about "would you complain if I had forfeited to you?" is interesting. I don't think what you did was the end of the world, and it's not something that is going to come up that often. I'd be awfully tempted anyways... Now I feel bad about myself. I'm rotten!

Oh yeah.. I forgot to respond to this portion of the OP's post.

Why yes.. Yes I WOULD complain if a top player forfeited the match right before I got to play them. For me, it's not so much the money or winning, as it is the continuous search for improvement. I can't improve if I don't play better players. It takes some work and experience to get up and play your best game against tough competition.

What happens if the OP goes into the loser bracket, wins the lag, breaks in the 8 ball and scratches? He's out of the tourney, and everyone who might have improved by playing him has been robbed.

Oh, and yes, I do consider "forfeiting" a match on purpose as "dumping". It's just an easier way to accomplish the same result. Semantics don't fly wit me, buddy.

Russ
 
sixpack said:
I always felt a little funny about it, but it was the norm and has been the norm as long as I've been around pool. I forfeited to a friend of mine once because I was playing cards and the owner got so pissed he 86'ed me. It's usually safer to just dump I guess.

Cheers,
RC

Tell me again why pool has an image problem?

Russ
 
PlynSets said:
Well I'm not sure of your relationship with those people so lets set them aside for a second on whether you like them or not. What's your take on it? If a guy and his "partner" (doesn't even have to be his g/f, but maybe someone he staked to get into the tourny) end up facing each other in that same tourny.

Is it ethical for them to look at the tournament board, and weigh the odds of how which guy stands the best chance of winning, and then let him either proceed (or in this rare case not proceed) based upon that decision?
DJ

Funny, my ex boyfriend was mentioned in the first half of your post (Sam Manaole). He and I drew each other in a tournament once at College Billiards. For the first time ever I had a lucky day and beat him (I was getting the wild 6 out in a race to 4) and he wanted to gamble with me afterwards:eek: . That was maybe 4 or 5 years ago. About a year ago we ended up playing in a tournament at Family Billiards in Ocean side. He beat me, I went to the losers and came back through the losers to play him in the finals where he beat me again:mad: . Sam is a great guy and has the best heart. He just hates losing (even to his g/f or ex g/f as the case is now) ;) but handles it much better now (as seldom as that happens).

On a side note I played a bar tournament the other day. My friend saw that if we both won our next matches we would be playing each other in the finals. We both decided to split before we even played and ironically we both lost that match and ended up playing on the losers side way before the finals. I ended up knocking her out and won 2 more matches before placing 2nd which was barely enough money to buy us a good chinese dinner:D .
 
Back
Top