On a stroke shot, how much follow through?

Lots of great answers here! I think even though pip9ball got some flack from some of the techno guys, he still understands what we want as a "good" followthrough...and that is exactly what Gerald said (among several others)...a "natural" finish for the stroke; which for a pendulum swing, is where the grip hand 'finishes' at or near your chest, and the tip finishes somewhere past the CB. The distance is irrelevant, as it only relates to how long the shooter's bridge is, and where they place their grip hand on the cue. I've had students who had a natural finish of only 1", and others who had a long natural finish of 8-9". Many will be in the 5"-7" range. Nobody will have a natural finish of 12"+, unless they have four foot long arms (or they are purposefully dropping the elbow). Because of the CB leaving the cue tip in such a short time span (1/1000th of a second...or 1/4 of the time it takes for your eye to blink, in a reflex action), it doesn't matter how far past the CB your tip goes. The reason we finish our stroke naturally is so that the speed of the stroke is easily achieved, and, as mentioned, there is a natural stopping point (when the bicep meets the forearm, or grip hand meets the chest/armpit)...without any movement of the elbow up or down.

Merry Christmas everyone!:thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Cornerman said:
At impact, most good strokes are at nearly constant speed. In other words, zero acceleration.
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Dr. Dave did a test (not sure where it is) of his own stroke compared to a more seasoned player.

Interestingly Dave's accelleration occured earlier and the seasoned player accellerated more smoothly across the stroke. It was close to flat before CB impact by may have been still accellerating, though the rate of accelleration had dropped to almost zero.

Anyway, that's what I'd recall. It would be nice to see those graphs here.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
Dr. Dave did a test (not sure where it is) of his own stroke compared to a more seasoned player.

Interestingly Dave's accelleration occured earlier and the seasoned player accellerated more smoothly across the stroke. It was close to flat before CB impact by may have been still accellerating, though the rate of accelleration had dropped to almost zero.

Anyway, that's what I'd recall. It would be nice to see those graphs here.

Colin
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The video with the stroke comparisons is here:

As pointed out by Fred, it is natural for most players (especially pendulum-stroke players like Bob and me in the video) to reach costant speed (i.e., no acceleration or force) at CB impact. In the video, we also included a fast elbow-drop stroke by a "seasoned player" (Dave Gross). He was actually "accerelrating into the ball" on his shot. More info and additional resources can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
 
BradE said:
When you address a shot that needs a good stroke how much follow through do you need? How far will the cue travel past the cue ball's original position?
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8 to 12 inches.....at this distance, I am usually stroking it pretty well......mess around with it, find what feels comfortable.....whatever works for you sir....
 
Jal said:
...There are some advantages to either method.

Constant Velocity:

- Least sensitive to variations in bridge length.

- Uses the least amount of energy during the stroke.

- Much better than decelerating.

Accelerating:

- Less sensitive to changes in muscle timing (to the extent that they occur).

- Less peak force is required to get the cue up to some target speed.

- Can produce more maximum cue speed.

With a pendulum stroke, it's usually recommended that the forearm be perpendicular to the stick at impact so that the tip is not moving in the vertical plane. This also seems to be about where constant velocity takes place, i.e., forward muscle push is reduced to around zero. How much voluntary control we have over this, I don't know.
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Good post Jim. Here is the cocluding paragraph in my stroke analysis document (TP B.4):
With the pendulum (p) stroke, the speed is more constant (i.e., leveled-off'd) at CB impact, possibly making it easier to control shot speed, because the speed is less sensitive to variations in timing. With the typical "accelerate into the ball" (a) stroke, the speed and force increases during the whole stroke (into the ball). The force is lower during most of the stroke, but the force does peak higher at the end of the stroke to achieve the same final cue speed as the pendulum stroke. Having said this, a typical "accelerate into the ball" stroke usually involves more of a "piston" stroke, with shoulder motion and elbow drop, allowing some people to generate more peak force, as compared to a classic pendulum stroke. However, the timing (and therefore the final speed) and tip-contact-point accuracy might be more difficult for some people to control with the "piston" stroke.​

There appears to be few discrepancies in our conclusions. I will try to look at this closer soon, based on our recent disussions, and try to expand my analysis document.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
The video with the stroke comparisons is here:

As pointed out by Fred, it is natural for most players (especially pendulum-stroke players like Bob and me in the video) to reach costant speed (i.e., no acceleration or force) at CB impact. In the video, we also included a fast elbow-drop stroke by a "seasoned player" (Dave Gross). He was actually "accerelrating into the ball" on his shot. More info and additional resources can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
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Good to see you're up and well after your surgery Dave. I figured if you were peeking in you'd provide the relevant links:-)

Colin
 
dr_dave said:
...There appears to be few discrepancies in our conclusions. I will try to look at this closer soon, based on our recent disussions, and try to expand my analysis document
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Looking forward to it Dr. Dave. I really do appreciate your willingness to subject your work to, shall we say, underling review. Good to see you posting again!

Jim
 
Colin Colenso said:
Good to see you're up and well after your surgery Dave. I figured if you were peeking in you'd provide the relevant links:-)
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Thanks Colin. My shoulder was worse than the surgeon thought originally (after the MRI). He had to put in 6 bone anchors (to reattach my labrum) and had tighten up all of my loose muscles with kevlar stiches. I've had many nights of agony this past week, even with the pain meds. I'll be in a sling for at least 4-5 more weeks. Shoulder surgery sure does suck. I look forward to the day when I can type with two hands again and be able to tie my own shoes (not to mention being able to sleep through a night).

Catch you later,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
The video with the stroke comparisons is here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVB-40.htm
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Dave, I'm not sure what kind of conclussion you're trying to convey on Dave Gross' stroke on HSV-B.40. Surely you can't be saying that this "top regional player's" stroke is always or mostly or normally accelerates all the way up until contact.

That stroke shown of his wasn't very good (if you want us to believe it's a normal fast stroke shot). I assume he was trying to see if he could accelerate all the way to contact. Top player's don't stroke like that normally, so I'd love to see what his normal firm stroke shot is.

His shot looked like a weak break shot, not a normal range stroke shot at all.

Fred
 
If you stop your cuetip at impact, doesn't that require muscles in your arm to tense up? That has to be done before the tip hits the ball, even if it's a split second before. That must have some type of effect on how well you hit the ball.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
If you stop your cuetip at impact, doesn't that require muscles in your arm to tense up? That has to be done before the tip hits the ball, even if it's a split second before. That must have some type of effect on how well you hit the ball.
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That is right. Which means you need to exert more energy to hit ball as hard as the guy who has a nice follow through. A good stroke is about timing and the follow through is a contributing factor IMO to develop good timing.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
If you stop your cuetip at impact, doesn't that require muscles in your arm to tense up? That has to be done before the tip hits the ball, even if it's a split second before. That must have some type of effect on how well you hit the ball.
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not if you know how to grip the cue..

tight grip =BAD

loose grip.. masks muscle acceleration at the point where friction between the hand and wrap breaks...

what the cue is doing and what the arm is doing are two different things..

IMO the arm should accelerate... the cue does what it does..
 
softshot said:
not if you know how to grip the cue..

tight grip =BAD

loose grip.. masks muscle acceleration at the point where friction between the hand and wrap breaks...

what the cue is doing and what the arm is doing are two different things..

IMO the arm should accelerate... the cue does what it does..
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I strongly disagree. What the cue is doing is a result of WHAT your arm is doing. If you've got a hook in your stroke, your cue is gonna have a hook in it's delivery. Thats the way it works.

You want to let the weight of the cue do all your work for you. This can't be achieved with only a loose grip. You have to have a relaxed arm that moves with the cue as though they were one unit. Tensing up your arm WILL most definately effect the delivery of the cue.

The cue should actually feel like an extention of your arm. When you move your arm, your cue moves with it. A relaxed grip helps your cue move with your arm. A tight grip causes you to twist and veer your cue off line. Make sense?
 
Cornerman said:
Dave, I'm not sure what kind of conclussion you're trying to convey on Dave Gross' stroke on HSV-B.40.
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My observations in the video pertain only to the shots in the video. I didn't intend to jump to any general conclisions beyond the observations in the video.

Cornerman said:
Surely you can't be saying that this "top regional player's" stroke is always or mostly or normally accelerates all the way up until contact.
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We did test each of us at three different speeds. I don't have the data readily available, but I think Dave Gross did accelerate into the ball at a more "medium fast" shot also. I can check next week.

Cornerman said:
That stroke shown of his wasn't very good (if you want us to believe it's a normal fast stroke shot).
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I guess that depends on what you mean by "good" and "normal."

Cornerman said:
I assume he was trying to see if he could accelerate all the way to contact.
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I was not asked to do anything special. This was his "normal" stroke for this speed.

Cornerman said:
Top player's don't stroke like that normally, so I'd love to see what his normal firm stroke shot is. His shot looked like a weak break shot, not a normal range stroke shot at all.
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We each hit a "slow," "medium," and "fast" shot, based on our own interpretations of the words. Dave Gross did hit his "fast" shot harder than Bob and I did, but he wasn't trying to accelerate. If we get the motivation to do more tests in the future (the whole process takes lots of time and effort), we will test more players at more speeds. Are you voluteering to help us next time?

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
We did test each of us at three different speeds. I don't have the data readily available, but I think Dave Gross did accelerate into the ball at a more "medium fast" shot also. I can check next week.
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Do all of his strokes look like this? I find that hard to believe.


We each hit a "slow," "medium," and "fast" shot, based on our own interpretations of the words. Dave Gross did hit his "fast" shot harder than Bob and I did, but he wasn't trying to accelerate. If we get the motivation to do more tests in the future (the whole process takes lots of time and effort), we will test more players at more speeds. Are you voluteering to help us next time?
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I'd love to. I think there is a great opportunity to examine the difference of:

SPF style stroke with and without wrist
pendulum with and without wrist
a crescendo" stroke (what I call, the professional stroke)

That being said, there are a multitude of players near you that have a much better stroke than I ever have to examine.

Fred
 
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