One (of several) reasons why APA handicapping sometimes don't work.

[Maniac]

This is not a thread to bash the APA. I play in two APA leagues and though I realize that it has it's problems and detractors, it is what it is, and I still enjoy my nights out with the gang shooting pool and throwing back a few Crown and Cokes.

This is just what happened to me this past Monday night in my 8-ball league which plainly shows one of the faults in the APA handicapping system.

To make a long story short, I'll just say that MY scorekeeper had me down for a match-total twenty (20) defensive shots (which is probably about spot-on) while my opponents scorekeeper had me down for two (2).

'Nuff said.

Maniac

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[hdgis1]

There is an easy way around that. (although you will probably upset your captain) All you have to do is say 'offense', or 'defense' before every shot you shoot. Then there is no question about what you were doing.

I've always wondered why people aren't required to call a safe before they shoot. Seems people are always using the whole offense defense thing as part of sandbagging. I'd think making one call a safe would help eliminate that.

 

[dr2112]

There is an easy way around that. (although you will probably upset your captain) All you have to do is say 'offense', or 'defense' before every shot you shoot. Then there is no question about what you were doing.

That would be great Neil if every team really did that but it is FARRRRRRR from that. Nothing worse being a 7 and playing a 4 in a 5-2 race and the 4plays a great safe game. I am not saying it is all of them but it sure is a lot. It is fun just wish that it was fair for everyone

 

[Maniac]

There is an easy way around that. (although you will probably upset your captain) All you have to do is say 'offense', or 'defense' before every shot you shoot. Then there is no question about what you were doing.

I've never heard of any pool instructors teaching the "calling" of offense or defense as part of your pre-shot routine. This is a little corny IMO, although it would help. I think the bigger problem here is attentiveness and pool knowledge on the part of many league scorekeepers. I almost always call a safety either before or directly after the shot except where the safety is so darn obvious that it would be embarrassing to have to call it.

Maniac

 

[Maniac]

I've always wondered why people aren't required to call a safe before they shoot. Seems people are always using the whole offense defense thing as part of sandbagging. I'd think making one call a safe would help eliminate that.

The problem with this is that a skilled player can actually shoot a safety that APPEARS to be a shot. Only a KNOWLEDGeABLE scorekeeper could tell what was going on.

Maniac

 

[Rich R.]

This is not a thread to bash the APA. I play in two APA leagues and though I realize that it has it's problems and detractors, it is what it is, and I still enjoy my nights out with the gang shooting pool and throwing back a few Crown and Cokes.

This is just what happened to me this past Monday night in my 8-ball league which plainly shows one of the faults in the APA handicapping system.

To make a long story short, I'll just say that MY scorekeeper had me down for a match-total twenty (20) defensive shots (which is probably about spot-on) while my opponents scorekeeper had me down for two (2).

'Nuff said.

Maniac

It is exactly that type of scorekeeping that allows the cheaters to get away with sandbagging. I'm happy to hear your team had it right and hopefully the LO will notice the discrepency when the score sheets go in.

As others have suggested, I recommend announcing all defensive shots either before or after the shot.

 

[pooltchr]

I've always wondered why people aren't required to call a safe before they shoot. Seems people are always using the whole offense defense thing as part of sandbagging. I'd think making one call a safe would help eliminate that.

Probably not. If the shooter doesn't call a defensive shot, does that mean it was just an offensive shot that missed? Trusting the shooter to call his defense will work with those who don't worry about handicaps, but for those who are the sandbaggers, they just won't call any on themselves.

Steve

 

[RKM]

The problem with this is that a skilled player can actually shoot a safety that APPEARS to be a shot. Only a KNOWLEDGeABLE scorekeeper could tell what was going on.

Maniac

Right on the money Maniac. I see this all the time in APA.

Jamie

 

[CMD]

Probably not. If the shooter doesn't call a defensive shot, does that mean it was just an offensive shot that missed? Trusting the shooter to call his defense will work with those who don't worry about handicaps, but for those who are the sandbaggers, they just won't call any on themselves.

Steve

Very well said.


Chris

 

[hdgis1]

Probably not. If the shooter doesn't call a defensive shot, does that mean it was just an offensive shot that missed? Trusting the shooter to call his defense will work with those who don't worry about handicaps, but for those who are the sandbaggers, they just won't call any on themselves.

Steve

Good point...Guess we are right back to the intent thing they spell out in those dumb APA videos!

 

[Rich R.]

Probably not. If the shooter doesn't call a defensive shot, does that mean it was just an offensive shot that missed? Trusting the shooter to call his defense will work with those who don't worry about handicaps, but for those who are the sandbaggers, they just won't call any on themselves.

Steve

If the scorekeeper believes that the player did not intend to make the ball, he/she has the right to mark the shot as defensive. The scorekeeper won't get all of them, but they can get most.
I know I don't wait for anyone to call a shot defensive when I'm keeping score. I just mark them as I see them.

 

[pooltchr]

Rich. I agree, and I will use my own judgement when I'm keeping score. I also let both scorekeepers know when I play defense.

Not everyone does, and that is what allows sandbagging to continue.

It probably would help if scorekeepers actually paid attention to what they are doing, but I see too many more involved in a conversation with their friends than what is happening in the match they are supposed to be scoring. How many times per night do you hear one scorekeeper ask the other "How many innings do you have?"

Too many people just don't care.

Steve

 

[Erno]

The problem with scorekeepers, is that most of them don't pay attention to the match. The only thing they are worried about is marking innings. Also where I play at most of the scorekeepers are lower ranked players, so they don't know when the other team shoots safety's.

 

[Rich R.]

The problem with scorekeepers, is that most of them don't pay attention to the match. The only thing they are worried about is marking innings. Also where I play at most of the scorekeepers are lower ranked players, so they don't know when the other team shoots safety's.

If the better players are not willing to help with the scoring duties, they shouldn't be complaining about sandbaggers either.

 

[Cornerman]

IMNSHO, with the increased awareness of pool, more league and competitive competition (as opposed to simple Friday night bar pool), and with the world wide web, the APA has no defense today when complaints of sandbagging are rampant and their entire handicap system is affected by marking safeties in a non-call shot ruleset. How can you possibly continue in today's pool world to force amateurs to mark safeties subjectively in rules that allow slop?

If the APA had simply switched to call shot when the rest of the leagues and rule books did, then there would be no quesiton today. A person is either calling a pocket or they're calling a safety.

And no, for those that are new to the APA, the ruleset they play has nothing to do with amateur status or any such nonsense. The 8-ball rules the APA plays today is what the professionals were playing at the time the APA was formed. The APA simply didn't change when the 8-ball rule book started making changes that made sense.

Fred

 

[Rich R.]

If the APA had simply switched to call shot when the rest of the leagues and rule books did, then there would be no quesiton today. A person is either calling a pocket or they're calling a safety.

Fred, I have to ask what difference calling the shot would make in the APA handicap system?

In the current system, a player doesn't have to call the shot and can miss on purpose without calling it a defensive shot. Of course, the score keeper can make that determination for the player, in order to prevent sandbagging.

If they switched to call your shot, the player could easily call the shot and still miss on purpose. Since it would be a call shot format, it would be more difficult for a scorekeeper to mark the shot as a defensive shot without the player calling it one. This would make sandbagging easier.

If the APA switched to a call shot format, it seems they would also have to make changes to their handicap system, which may not be a bad thing.

 

[fasteddienc]

A new league in town......

I think you guys should check out USA Pool League at www.playusapool.com. They don't fool with innings or safeties, however the scorekeeper must mark missed shots instead. A missed shot is a shot that should be reasonably made according to the players ability. For example you would not mark a kick or bank as a missed shot for a 2 in APA. You can find this explained under the "Rules" link at the top. They use BCAPL rules in which you must declare safeties and call shots, and since each ball is a point and the 8 ball is 7 points sandbagging is more difficult.

This is a startup league with a cash payout format. It's in the very beginning stages and there is info there if you wish to be a league manager/operator in your area.

 

[cajun9092]

If the scorekeeper believes that the player did not intend to make the ball, he/she has the right to mark the shot as defensive. The scorekeeper won't get all of them, but they can get most.
I know I don't wait for anyone to call a shot defensive when I'm keeping score. I just mark them as I see them.

I also mark them as I see them. I believe our LO compares the two scoresheets and uses the higher number for defensive shots.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Whomever mentioned a 7 playing a 4 is brutal I totally agree. A 5-2 race is absolutely ridiculous, the gap between a good 4 and a 5 is pretty small. It's really tough to fade. I always wished that race was 6-3...that just seems so much more fair. About the defensive shots...definitely a huge problem, but at the end of the night both captains sign each others score sheet. They should be verifying both score sheets look the same.