One-Pocket Situation
- Thread starter Aaron_S
- Start date
I don't think you can kick to the 5 off the footrail, but even if you could, all kicks at the 5 leave the 9 ball bank with a decent possibility of getting behind the stack in case the 9 doesn’t fall. And to boot, you will slide off the 5 ball and scratch a good percentage of the times you don't hit this kick perfect.
I think cuetable’s shot is the right one. I would not worry about leaving a bank when your opponent has a ball 3 inches from his pocket. Also, IF you do leave a bank on the 4 or 12, your opponent will have to shoot that bank jacked up from his pocket, and avoid selling out the 9 or 15.
Never mind the fact that if the bank does not fall, you will remove all balls from his pocket, and basically destroy a prime position for him. If you get behind the 5 on cuetable’s shot, he will not shoot at the bank. He will play off a ball and put you by your side pocket, hiding you from the ball by his pocket.
That is, if he knows what he’s doing.
Russ
I think cuetable’s shot is the right one. I would not worry about leaving a bank when your opponent has a ball 3 inches from his pocket. Also, IF you do leave a bank on the 4 or 12, your opponent will have to shoot that bank jacked up from his pocket, and avoid selling out the 9 or 15.
Never mind the fact that if the bank does not fall, you will remove all balls from his pocket, and basically destroy a prime position for him. If you get behind the 5 on cuetable’s shot, he will not shoot at the bank. He will play off a ball and put you by your side pocket, hiding you from the ball by his pocket.
That is, if he knows what he’s doing.
Russ
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cuetable said:
Cuetable.. I might be wrong, but it looks like you are going to get a double kiss with the two balls by the corner pocket.
Russ
Big Perm said:It didn't look that way..... not sure if it was my eyes or brain letting me down
If so, then you could kick the 9 and use it to float below the 5...
So like these? I diagrammed both the direct kick (to show it doesn't go past the 10), and the kiss off the 9, on pages 1 and 2 here.
That kiss is extremely thin, carries zero margin of error, and leaves your opponent options even in the best case.
I still think the top of the stack is the only safe place on the table that is a big enough target to aim at, unless you're Efren Reyes and can freeze the CB on any side of any ball you want at any time.
BazookaJoe said:
Well, I did see that video, but 1)Alex had a slightly easier angle, and WAY less CB travel distance between the ball he was hitting and the ball he was hiding behind, and 2)He's Alex Pagulayan! I'm not Alex Pagulayan, and I know you're not Alex Pagulayan either. There's nobody in this thread with Alex's cue ball control, and for that matter, there are only a few people on the planet with Alex's kind of cue ball control.
-Andrew
I don't know about the easier angle.Andrew Manning said:
It looks a little harder to me
http://youtube.com/watch?v=egWP6CWbXPA
multiple shots---not one is the perfect shot but they all work
1.) off end rail with low inside draw......must hit the 5 on the fat side and kick it out of there with holding the cue ball on the end rail
2.) off the end rail to cut-bank the 5 ball back towards your hole. sends cue ball up table, but must hit correct speed and thickness of the kick-cut.
3.) carom off the 1/4 ball to go behind the 5. very tricky with speed.
4.) play into the stack lightly hitting 14 ball not moving anything in the stack. this shot leaves no offensive shot for your opponent. you take the foul and one point/ball defecit.
Personally I would go with option #4 it completely eliminates offensive moves for your opponent. All other options leave some form of offensive move even if it is a safety back at you.
1.) off end rail with low inside draw......must hit the 5 on the fat side and kick it out of there with holding the cue ball on the end rail
2.) off the end rail to cut-bank the 5 ball back towards your hole. sends cue ball up table, but must hit correct speed and thickness of the kick-cut.
3.) carom off the 1/4 ball to go behind the 5. very tricky with speed.
4.) play into the stack lightly hitting 14 ball not moving anything in the stack. this shot leaves no offensive shot for your opponent. you take the foul and one point/ball defecit.
Personally I would go with option #4 it completely eliminates offensive moves for your opponent. All other options leave some form of offensive move even if it is a safety back at you.
My thought on getting to the 5 was to miss the 10 completely with a little curve, low right.....kind of what snap is saying...
As far as the 9, hit it thick....about 95%, just a hair on the right side...kick off the foot, just missing the two, while the cue floats just below the 5.....
I get what you are saying, it's not exactly safe, but it sets up best to my eye....
As far as the 9, hit it thick....about 95%, just a hair on the right side...kick off the foot, just missing the two, while the cue floats just below the 5.....
I get what you are saying, it's not exactly safe, but it sets up best to my eye....
cuetable said:
I can't see this shot every coming off in real life. There is WAY too much going on to fall out that perfect. IF you hit the 5 with the 4, the 4 & 5 will kiss again and who knows what happens.
The 5 is your mortal enemy. You MUST move it to have a CHANCE in this game. Trying to stick on top of the rack will result in this...
...no better than where you started.
Here's what I propose...
Kick the 5 out from in front of his pocket using a bit of spin. Based on the ball positions shown in the original diagram, this CAN be done. My goal is to get the 5 off the side rail enough to block a potential bank on the 12.
If I fail, I leave the bank shown on page 2.
If I succeed, I probably leave a removal of the 11 from near my pocket as shown on page 3. Although my position would be weakened...so was his and I have a MUCH better chance of surviving from the position shown in page 3.
In either case, I can't see my opponent banking the 9 since he will open the balls up on my side of the table. He COULD make the shot, but if he fails I can escape very easily.
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Snap9 said:
Option four allows you opponent to lightly hit into the 14 again, sending one or more balls to his side, while keeping you frozen to the wrong side of the stack.
Option 1 is not possible. The tangent lines on this kick have already been shown in another post.
Option 2.. Yeah.. Yeah.. I know it is in "Winning One Pocket".... But in those diagrams, the opponent did not have 3-4 balls poking out for him to shoot at if the speed wasn't great.
Option 3.. Workable shot for a decent One Pocket player. One absolutely must be able to execute these type shots.
Option 4. Quite possibly the worst of the options. You are 100% guaranteed to be in a worse trap than you started out in.
Russ
Boy, it would be nice to see what Grady has to say about this.. Perhaps he has an alert that is emailed to him whenever his name is mentioned?
Grady, where are you? Come tell us hacks how to play this!
Russ
Grady, where are you? Come tell us hacks how to play this!
Russ
Once again Russ your arrogance is astonishing. I have watched on multiple occasions Cliff play this exact same position shot with almost identical layout as described by me with the decription of shot 4. Cliff also played this shot 4 times in a row to owe 4 balls while giving the player a 12-5 spot. The reason being is that the only possible safe from option 4 is to kick into the side rail and hope to hit the 11 ball legally and stay safe. If you do not safe than there will be multiple offensive and defensive shots to play. And just in case the player does properly kick safe the 11 ball that will leave the long rail kick on the 5 to either play safe or kick out. Not everything is an exact science.
Sometimes in one pocket you must give up balls to move forward.
Sometimes in one pocket you must give up balls to move forward.
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cuetable said:
Wei
Won't work, look at your diagram. Your cutting the 1 to the left, but your hitting it on the left. Like I said earlier on this one, from the given angle, to draw to the top of the rack, you have to cut the 4 such that it will hit the 5 after it comes off the rail. Which would be better actually, because there would be no kiss. But chances of hitting and making that shot are pretty low.
Mike
Snap9 said:
Agree with the last statement, but I'm not sure if your Cliff example is a good one. I have seen Cliff take those fouls as well, and the reason that strategy works against players getting 12-5 is because those players getting 12-5 can't play. Better players will exploit a foul taken at the wrong time. And Cliff will soon realize if he can't continue that strategy against his opponent.
As for my two cents, I think the safest path is to draw the CB off the one into the stack. You're already in trouble, so NBD if the four and the five don't move much. Point being it does not look like you can escape this trap in one inning. If the 4 or 5 does end up by your hole, then you clearly did escape the trap in one inning.
Deadon said:
You have caught me on a bad drawing technique (my bad), the following would be a little more realistic if there isn't a double kiss. I drew this as a variation to Andrew's shot as seen in the #9 post of this thread (which is listed as page 2 on the layout). My own shot would be on page 3 (which might not be so exciting)
Snap9 said:
Are you serious? You're telling me this is the right shot, when Cliff was giving someone 12-5??????????????? Playing someone that speed, he can do a lot of things that aren't the right shot!
I'll tell you what. Go find some Accu-Stats where players play shot 4, and get back to us with a win percentage, thanks..
Russ
edit:I've included a wei diagram of what will happen to you after shot four. Since you've fouled and sacrificed a ball, I did the same thing, but pushed two more balls on my side. It only gets worse from here. Cliff was playing someone clueless about One Pocket.. That's why they were getting 12-5 and getting drilled.
Page 1 is your shot.. Page 2 is my response... And page 3 is the result... Yummy!
Hey man.. If you didn't see this response, it's cool. Sometimes it's hard to see what your opponent is going to hit you with. All I'm saying is, it's a shot where on the next shot, your opponent is going to move two more balls to his side, and leave you frozen to the wrong side of the stack. It's the very definition of a horrible trap in One Pocket.
It was a good thought, but definitely not right in this situation. Just because Cliff got away with it against a weak player, doesn't mean anything. Cuetable's shot, even though adventurous, is much better than rolling into the stack. At least his shot gives a chance at putting your opponent in a trap almost as bad as the one you're in, while moving at least a ball or two away from his pocket.
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Russ Chewning said:Are you serious? You're telling me this is the right shot, when Cliff was giving someone 12-5??????????????? Playing someone that speed, he can do a lot of things that aren't the right shot!
I'll tell you what. Go find some Accu-Stats where players play shot 4, and get back to us with a win percentage, thanks..
Russ
edit:I've included a wei diagram of what will happen to you after shot four. Since you've fouled and sacrificed a ball, I did the same thing, but pushed two more balls on my side. It only gets worse from here. Cliff was playing someone clueless about One Pocket.. That's why they were getting 12-5 and getting drilled.
Page 1 is your shot.. Page 2 is my response... And page 3 is the result... Yummy!
Hey man.. If you didn't see this response, it's cool. Sometimes it's hard to see what your opponent is going to hit you with. All I'm saying is, it's a shot where on the next shot, your opponent is going to move two more balls to his side, and leave you frozen to the wrong side of the stack. It's the very definition of a horrible trap in One Pocket.
It was a good thought, but definitely not right in this situation. Just because Cliff got away with it against a weak player, doesn't mean anything. Cuetable's shot, even though adventurous, is much better than rolling into the stack. At least his shot gives a chance at putting your opponent in a trap almost as bad as the one you're in, while moving at least a ball or two away from his pocket.
I'm with Russ on this one...sitting too passive can be like slow death. I've been in this situation to many times playing a opponent who is trying to rope a dope me. I simply push stack around to suit me and them foul with developement...not just foul not to lose. When the time is right. Generally on my third shoot you simply go up table by drawing off a ball and he's facing the The Father/Son/Ghost/Holly Spirit/the kitchen sink and 9 feet of chaos.
Nick
Be it known that Cliff can give 12-5 to pretty decent players.
Believe it...................or not
Believe it...................or not
cue ball off the end rail spin into 5 and bank 5 towards your pocket
let the cue ball roll up to the around the 12, you have a safe and a offensive shot without settling for a passive reply.
leave me a shot of this type i will shoot at it, where the balls lay the cue ball will roll up table on his side of the table , naturally
dennis
let the cue ball roll up to the around the 12, you have a safe and a offensive shot without settling for a passive reply.
leave me a shot of this type i will shoot at it, where the balls lay the cue ball will roll up table on his side of the table , naturally
dennis
This was my first consideration as well, but if you look closely, the 5 is an inch or two to low to make that shot viable. Sure as sh!t you'll kick the 5 into the t!t and sell out.dmyroncox said:
This is the type of situation that you need to play like chess...you need to plan several shots ahead to extract yourself from this jeopardy. That's why I would opt to kick the 5 firm enough just to block the bank on the 12 (as shown here-->http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=750731&postcount=28). I'd love it if he took a shot at the banking the 9.
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