Each player gets an inning, then the forgotten/slept ball(s) are spotted.
Lou Figueroa
one pocket strange occurrence - what's the ruling?
- Thread starter moose man
- Start date
Each player gets an inning, then the forgotten/slept ball(s) are spotted.
Lou Figueroa
To be honest, I CAN see this happening in a game, lol. But I also have to say that it is certainly not covered in the One Pocket rules. It's possible that some of the general pool rules address accidental replacement of balls that were pocketed back on to the field of play but I don't recall ever seeing that kind of rule reference. The OnePocket.org rules for One Pocket, which are pretty much considered the official rules, do not reference anything like this I am sure, but they do say that for questions related to general rules not covered in the One Pocket rules, then you defer to the general rules.
Personally, I once had an opponent when he was counting the balls that he had moved to his side pocket, he placed them momentarily on the table surface adjacent to the pocket in order to count them (frequently does that in fact). But this one time, there was a ball in play near his side pocket too. After he finished counting, he replaced the balls into the side pocket -- along with the additional ball that was still in play!!
If I was the ref or someone contacted me and asked me for a ruling the first thing I would ask if both players believed the two balls really were pocketed earlier and belonged to that player? If they both agreed then I would be inclined just to give them to him, and consider it simply a scoring error and not a foul or anything. It sounds like in this case both players did agree that the offending player did have a couple additional balls that had gone missing at least.
However, given that at least one of the players shot without noticing the extra balls on the table then I think you also have to question whether the presence of the extra balls influenced the next player's shot or shots (before the extra balls were noticed) -- either by being involved in the shot or by influencing the shot selection. Unless both players agree that the two extra balls absolutely did not influence anything, then you have to simply leave them there and they would continue to be in play and unfortunately the guy did cost himself a couple of balls even though it was an honest mistake.
In general, what this says is, don't put balls back on the table unless you are spotting a ball you owe!.
You will notice my first choice is "if both players agree" at all times, lol. That to me is the first goal of rules and rule dispute resolution.
Personally, I once had an opponent when he was counting the balls that he had moved to his side pocket, he placed them momentarily on the table surface adjacent to the pocket in order to count them (frequently does that in fact). But this one time, there was a ball in play near his side pocket too. After he finished counting, he replaced the balls into the side pocket -- along with the additional ball that was still in play!!
If I was the ref or someone contacted me and asked me for a ruling the first thing I would ask if both players believed the two balls really were pocketed earlier and belonged to that player? If they both agreed then I would be inclined just to give them to him, and consider it simply a scoring error and not a foul or anything. It sounds like in this case both players did agree that the offending player did have a couple additional balls that had gone missing at least.
However, given that at least one of the players shot without noticing the extra balls on the table then I think you also have to question whether the presence of the extra balls influenced the next player's shot or shots (before the extra balls were noticed) -- either by being involved in the shot or by influencing the shot selection. Unless both players agree that the two extra balls absolutely did not influence anything, then you have to simply leave them there and they would continue to be in play and unfortunately the guy did cost himself a couple of balls even though it was an honest mistake.
In general, what this says is, don't put balls back on the table unless you are spotting a ball you owe!.
You will notice my first choice is "if both players agree" at all times, lol. That to me is the first goal of rules and rule dispute resolution.
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Thanks again for all the feedback guys. Although anyone (myself included) can be a pain in the arse at times to play against, this guy seems to be one far more consistently than most. Unfortunately we don't have enough 1pkt players to spar against in the area, so it's tempting to put up with more bad behavior than I would otherwise. Since we have a history with him acting like a spoiled child, I wanted a sanity check to make sure I wasn't being out of line based on bias from his previous antics.:thumbup:
There is also an unwritten rule of pool gambling that says, When you have the best of a game, avoid arguing with your opponent because you risk losing your customer, when losing your customer would be more costly than losing your argument.
Okay, so I'm posting this for two reasons: 1) to see if anyone has seen the same thing happen in a notable tournament or challenge match, and 2) to see what the prevailing opinion is of the credentialed one pocket players out there (I'm pretty sure there isn't a written rule covering this exact situation).
I was playing some one hole for $50/game with "Joe Blow". It's early in game three (game score 1 to 1), and Joe took an intentional foul to end his inning, and spots a ball. I take my shot and return to my chair. Joe gets ready to shoot and looks in the ball return and on the neighboring table to check for balls/score. He says to me, "where is my other ball or balls?" I reply, "what?" Joe says, "I made two or three last inning and I spotted one, where is the other ball or two balls?" It sounded believable that he had made either two or three balls, but I see no sign of them either. While I'm trying to recall exactly what the heck happened, Joe proclaimed, "there they are, when I spotted the ball I placed these other two on the table and forgot to pick them back up!" He is referring two object balls setting near the foot-rail. He looks at me as he starts reaching for them, obviously looking for me to concur that he can snatch them up prior to shooting. I tell him to wait a minute, I'm not sure that he even put his pocketed balls on the table, and even if he did, shots have already taken place since then and so I'm certainly not ready to concede those two balls to him.
He takes his cue apart and quits the game, while ranting about how I'm the worst while using a liberal amount of colorful language. Joe is known for throwing toddler style temper tantrums when things aren't going his way. I tell him that if he is going to quit, he forfeits the current game and owes me $50. I have yet to see any of that cash
It seems pretty clear to me that if he did put his pocketed balls on the table and forgot them there only to remember during his next inning, that he screwed up and can't just grab them up. Even if they were never hit, they were factored in as balls that I had to defend against etc, so they potentially changed the shot selection and the game already.
What are your opinions?
The rule/tradition where I played most of my One Pocket:
A player who puts balls on the playing surface before he has his winning total,
forfeits the game.
Dale
All kinds of messed up
Some people aren't worth playing for even a quarter. Your Joe sounds like one of those and also you are doing things you shouldn't be. Keeping score on an adjacent table.....No.....keep your activities confined to your table and this way you know what is going on. As far as leaving balls on the table because he is too stupid to bring them over the other place you are keeping score. Tough especially considering shots had been taken. I would just for go not playing the guy and stop having your game off of your table. If I had been playing I would have immediately said no way. We keep score right here even if one of us had to use the ball rack and spot after shooting.
Some people aren't worth playing for even a quarter. Your Joe sounds like one of those and also you are doing things you shouldn't be. Keeping score on an adjacent table.....No.....keep your activities confined to your table and this way you know what is going on. As far as leaving balls on the table because he is too stupid to bring them over the other place you are keeping score. Tough especially considering shots had been taken. I would just for go not playing the guy and stop having your game off of your table. If I had been playing I would have immediately said no way. We keep score right here even if one of us had to use the ball rack and spot after shooting.
Okay, so I'm posting this for two reasons: 1) to see if anyone has seen the same thing happen in a notable tournament or challenge match, and 2) to see what the prevailing opinion is of the credentialed one pocket players out there (I'm pretty sure there isn't a written rule covering this exact situation).
I was playing some one hole for $50/game with "Joe Blow". It's early in game three (game score 1 to 1), and Joe took an intentional foul to end his inning, and spots a ball. I take my shot and return to my chair. Joe gets ready to shoot and looks in the ball return and on the neighboring table to check for balls/score. He says to me, "where is my other ball or balls?" I reply, "what?" Joe says, "I made two or three last inning and I spotted one, where is the other ball or two balls?" It sounded believable that he had made either two or three balls, but I see no sign of them either. While I'm trying to recall exactly what the heck happened, Joe proclaimed, "there they are, when I spotted the ball I placed these other two on the table and forgot to pick them back up!" He is referring two object balls setting near the foot-rail. He looks at me as he starts reaching for them, obviously looking for me to concur that he can snatch them up prior to shooting. I tell him to wait a minute, I'm not sure that he even put his pocketed balls on the table, and even if he did, shots have already taken place since then and so I'm certainly not ready to concede those two balls to him.
He takes his cue apart and quits the game, while ranting about how I'm the worst while using a liberal amount of colorful language. Joe is known for throwing toddler style temper tantrums when things aren't going his way. I tell him that if he is going to quit, he forfeits the current game and owes me $50. I have yet to see any of that cash
It seems pretty clear to me that if he did put his pocketed balls on the table and forgot them there only to remember during his next inning, that he screwed up and can't just grab them up. Even if they were never hit, they were factored in as balls that I had to defend against etc, so they potentially changed the shot selection and the game already.
What are your opinions?
Attachments
That's right... I play a lot of One Pocket, and I've never encountered somebody putting balls on the table while they're spotting one... the game is 'live' on the playing surface,
what if you let a ball roll into another one, disturbing the stack, or???
You owe one, you spot one, anything else in the return or in your pocket you then put it in the rack. Hell, I see guys that put their potted balls in the rack every other shot... the saying is: "Always keep track of the score". The example of Efren is an apt one... when someone he's playing thinks a ball in the return is his, Efren recounts the whole game..'you did this, then I banked that one in, I played safe' etc.
Moose, your guy was pulling a move, IMO. The fact he's thrown tantrums, etc. tells you everything... he's just trying to beat the tab.. he owes you $50 for the quit.
Okay, so I'm posting this for two reasons: 1) to see if anyone has seen the same thing happen in a notable tournament or challenge match, and 2) to see what the prevailing opinion is of the credentialed one pocket players out there (I'm pretty sure there isn't a written rule covering this exact situation).
I was playing some one hole for $50/game with "Joe Blow". It's early in game three (game score 1 to 1), and Joe took an intentional foul to end his inning, and spots a ball. I take my shot and return to my chair. Joe gets ready to shoot and looks in the ball return and on the neighboring table to check for balls/score. He says to me, "where is my other ball or balls?" I reply, "what?" Joe says, "I made two or three last inning and I spotted one, where is the other ball or two balls?" It sounded believable that he had made either two or three balls, but I see no sign of them either. While I'm trying to recall exactly what the heck happened, Joe proclaimed, "there they are, when I spotted the ball I placed these other two on the table and forgot to pick them back up!" He is referring two object balls setting near the foot-rail. He looks at me as he starts reaching for them, obviously looking for me to concur that he can snatch them up prior to shooting. I tell him to wait a minute, I'm not sure that he even put his pocketed balls on the table, and even if he did, shots have already taken place since then and so I'm certainly not ready to concede those two balls to him.
He takes his cue apart and quits the game, while ranting about how I'm the worst while using a liberal amount of colorful language. Joe is known for throwing toddler style temper tantrums when things aren't going his way. I tell him that if he is going to quit, he forfeits the current game and owes me $50. I have yet to see any of that cash
It seems pretty clear to me that if he did put his pocketed balls on the table and forgot them there only to remember during his next inning, that he screwed up and can't just grab them up. Even if they were never hit, they were factored in as balls that I had to defend against etc, so they potentially changed the shot selection and the game already.
What are your opinions?
I would say that you both need to pay more attention to what is going on. If "Joe Blow" was spotting a ball, why did he pull 2 other balls out of the pocket/ball return and put them on the table? Also, why didn't you notice this?
This situation should not have happened at all.
As for the $50, I would let it go.......just my .02
Okay, so I'm posting this for two reasons: 1) to see if anyone has seen the same thing happen in a notable tournament or challenge match, and 2) to see what the prevailing opinion is of the credentialed one pocket players out there (I'm pretty sure there isn't a written rule covering this exact situation).
I was playing some one hole for $50/game with "Joe Blow". It's early in game three (game score 1 to 1), and Joe took an intentional foul to end his inning, and spots a ball. I take my shot and return to my chair. Joe gets ready to shoot and looks in the ball return and on the neighboring table to check for balls/score. He says to me, "where is my other ball or balls?" I reply, "what?" Joe says, "I made two or three last inning and I spotted one, where is the other ball or two balls?" It sounded believable that he had made either two or three balls, but I see no sign of them either. While I'm trying to recall exactly what the heck happened, Joe proclaimed, "there they are, when I spotted the ball I placed these other two on the table and forgot to pick them back up!" He is referring two object balls setting near the foot-rail. He looks at me as he starts reaching for them, obviously looking for me to concur that he can snatch them up prior to shooting. I tell him to wait a minute, I'm not sure that he even put his pocketed balls on the table, and even if he did, shots have already taken place since then and so I'm certainly not ready to concede those two balls to him.
He takes his cue apart and quits the game, while ranting about how I'm the worst while using a liberal amount of colorful language. Joe is known for throwing toddler style temper tantrums when things aren't going his way. I tell him that if he is going to quit, he forfeits the current game and owes me $50. I have yet to see any of that cash
It seems pretty clear to me that if he did put his pocketed balls on the table and forgot them there only to remember during his next inning, that he screwed up and can't just grab them up. Even if they were never hit, they were factored in as balls that I had to defend against etc, so they potentially changed the shot selection and the game already.
What are your opinions?
Sounds like a liget confusion, I would have just discussed it and come to an understanding even if you replay the game. I don't want my relationship to end, over something as dumb as that, especially if I think I have the best of it. Over time you are probably going to play hundreds of games with him, don't live or die over one stupid game. Short term thinking is something people do wrong in many areas of their lives. It is no big deal.
This reminds me I was playing a guy a good amount game and I owed a few balls. I ran a few and put the owed balls on the table to spot them. I had a brain fart and picked up the CB from where it had rested to spot it.
The opponent says "what are you doing?" I look down and the CB was in my hand. Lol.
I kept it in my hand and gave him the CB bih.
You play enough you see it all
The opponent says "what are you doing?" I look down and the CB was in my hand. Lol.
I kept it in my hand and gave him the CB bih.
You play enough you see it all
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But this is a good thread. I picked up some tips for my future games:
1. Never place any balls on bed unless you are spotting them.
2. Only pull out from return the exact amt of balls to spot. Not more. After you spot, then take other balls to your ball count scoring location.
3. Efren remembers every shot he ever made
1. Never place any balls on bed unless you are spotting them.
2. Only pull out from return the exact amt of balls to spot. Not more. After you spot, then take other balls to your ball count scoring location.
3. Efren remembers every shot he ever made
I agree with this. I don't see any reason why his inadvertent placing of the balls on the table should cause him to not get credit for making them. If it were me I'd just let him have the balls (after all he DID make them) if having them on the table made no difference to my shot, and if I really thought they interfered with the shot I had just played I'd suggest a re-rack.
I don't see any circumstance where they can stay on the table, though, because they're out of play. What if for some dorky reason he'd set an extra 15-ball on the table or something, so now you have sixteen balls? Or an extra cue ball? Surely you're not going to keep playing the game then, right?
That's assuming that he DID place the other balls on the table, or whether they were there already... did he make 'em? That's the real issue and why I think it's a move.
At the start of the paragraph you state that the game is 1 To 1 when Joe takes the intention foul and spots 1 ball. At that point I assume he was out of pocketed balls, where did the other two balls he claimed were his come from ???Okay, so I'm posting this for two reasons: 1) to see if anyone has seen the same thing happen in a notable tournament or challenge match, and 2) to see what the prevailing opinion is of the credentialed one pocket players out there (I'm pretty sure there isn't a written rule covering this exact situation).
I was playing some one hole for $50/game with "Joe Blow". It's early in game three (game score 1 to 1), and Joe took an intentional foul to end his inning, and spots a ball. I take my shot and return to my chair. Joe gets ready to shoot and looks in the ball return and on the neighboring table to check for balls/score. He says to me, "where is my other ball or balls?" I reply, "what?" Joe says, "I made two or three last inning and I spotted one, where is the other ball or two balls?" It sounded believable that he had made either two or three balls, but I see no sign of them either. While I'm trying to recall exactly what the heck happened, Joe proclaimed, "there they are, when I spotted the ball I placed these other two on the table and forgot to pick them back up!" He is referring two object balls setting near the foot-rail. He looks at me as he starts reaching for them, obviously looking for me to concur that he can snatch them up prior to shooting. I tell him to wait a minute, I'm not sure that he even put his pocketed balls on the table, and even if he did, shots have already taken place since then and so I'm certainly not ready to concede those two balls to him.
He takes his cue apart and quits the game, while ranting about how I'm the worst while using a liberal amount of colorful language. Joe is known for throwing toddler style temper tantrums when things aren't going his way. I tell him that if he is going to quit, he forfeits the current game and owes me $50. I have yet to see any of that cash
It seems pretty clear to me that if he did put his pocketed balls on the table and forgot them there only to remember during his next inning, that he screwed up and can't just grab them up. Even if they were never hit, they were factored in as balls that I had to defend against etc, so they potentially changed the shot selection and the game already.
What are your opinions?
I have been playing one pocket for 50 plus years and this is not the first time I have heard this situation come up. First off forget the guy who claims he made two or three balls. You should know if he did or didn't. That's on you. And him putting them on the table prior to spotting his owed ball is not uncommon and him forgetting that they were there, if those balls were indeed his, is also a situation that does come up from time to time. You two shouldn't be gambling anyway. First for him possibly putting a move on you and you not remembering if he made the balls. If he is a total stranger to you you could give him a pass. But if he isn't a total stranger and you know him then he has a reputation. People are like clocks in that they do the same thing over and over.
