One-Pocket Strategy Question
- Thread starter sjm
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Exactly my point.
Like, if you know how to do it, it's not that big a deal.
How are you supposed to listen to someone who obviously thinks you can't or that you have the worst of it in that situation.
It's almost comical
What a great thread this turned out to be. There's probably been 5 legitimate options pointed out so far. What I really enjoy is seeing 3 great players like Cardone, Dick and Jay, all with completely different answers. And they all make total sense. That's the great thing about 1hole, there isn't a clear-cut answer. What's the right choice for me doesn't necessarily make it right one for you. Although, for my money and for my style of play, I like Dick's choice.
Sometimes, it is just plain mind-bending how much knowledge the posters on this forum truly have, and this thread is a very good example of this.
Stu,
Which shot is the best move/shot depends.
First you must consider who you are playing.
If you are playing a top player (one better than yourself) you had better be trying to make the head ball and drawing the cue back in the kitchen. Trying to bank the back ball across the table is OK too but I prefer trying to make the head ball because you might accidentally make the back ball two rails instead.
The one rail bank on the back ball is OK only if you know you can avoid the three rail scratch. I'm pretty good at avoiding that scratch so I'm OK with shooting that shot too but some people can't control whitey well enough to shoot that shot day in day out. Cue in hand for your opponent behind the line reverses the big advantage you had.... THE OTHER PROBLEM WITH BANKING THE BACK BALL ONE RAIL IS: When you attempt to bank the back ball one rail and you leave the cue ball close to your pocket it had better be against the side rail and close to the back pocket, because if you don't have that back ball that you banked sitting very close to your hole, your opponent needing two balls won't hesitate to back cut the remaining ball on the spot.
If you are playing a lesser player who can't move nearly as well as you you can cross over the top ball knocking the back ball to the back rail and just hard enough to for it to go back and barely kiss the front ball and leave both of them between the head spot and the middle of the table with cue ball sitting on the back rail or side rail where they don't have a bank. A little patience against a lesser player and you can take one of the balls completely out of play giving yourself a huge advantage.
Confidence in what you are attempting is paramount but the deciding choice should be made based upon who you are playing. There is no guarantee for any of the shots except maybe the safety, playing a lesser player. I should have said you just have to make sure that the lesser player doesn't move as well as you so that you can put one of the balls out of play for him.
JoeyA
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Hhhmmmmmmmmm.
I wonder what happened to the skeptics that wanted to wager?
I actually went into the pool room last night to see exactly how rusty i was on this shot, and i just had to laugh.
After a few tries, it was pretty obvious that it's still pretty easy to send the head ball towards the hole.
I mean, there were several times where it just flew in the hole repeatedly, and also a bunch of times where the back ball would fly in also on top of making the head ball.
I think that the #1problem that people are going to have with the shot is that they tend put way too much draw on it. They draw the daylights out of it to the point of where your forcing the ball into the bottom rail instead at towards the pocket, and your cue ball goes wildly uptable.
Also, i think that #2problem is that people kind of assume that you have to hit the 2 frozen balls exactly head on so that the balls form a straight line when contact is made.
This is not the case, and in reality, the cue ball is about 5 or 6 inches from the head spot, and you are aiming the cue to hit the balls slightly off center, at maybe 10 or 15 degrees off the straight line, depending on the table conditions.
You just hit it with a good stroke, almost like a drag draw stroke, so that the cue ball just floats back uptable, and VOILA!
The head ball goes flying towards the hole.
It really isn't that hard to gauge once you figure out the way to shoot it.
And based on the results when hitting it properly, i can't really see why anyone wouldn't take the shot to begin with as when the head ball hangs near the hole, 8 out of 10 times, the bottom ball that has banked 2 rails, is hanging out in the vicinity of the hole as well, which makes defensive play even more tricky.
If anything, the people that are not confident on the shot should just go out and set it up and practice it.
It just might win you a game one day.
I wonder what happened to the skeptics that wanted to wager?
I actually went into the pool room last night to see exactly how rusty i was on this shot, and i just had to laugh.
After a few tries, it was pretty obvious that it's still pretty easy to send the head ball towards the hole.
I mean, there were several times where it just flew in the hole repeatedly, and also a bunch of times where the back ball would fly in also on top of making the head ball.
I think that the #1problem that people are going to have with the shot is that they tend put way too much draw on it. They draw the daylights out of it to the point of where your forcing the ball into the bottom rail instead at towards the pocket, and your cue ball goes wildly uptable.
Also, i think that #2problem is that people kind of assume that you have to hit the 2 frozen balls exactly head on so that the balls form a straight line when contact is made.
This is not the case, and in reality, the cue ball is about 5 or 6 inches from the head spot, and you are aiming the cue to hit the balls slightly off center, at maybe 10 or 15 degrees off the straight line, depending on the table conditions.
You just hit it with a good stroke, almost like a drag draw stroke, so that the cue ball just floats back uptable, and VOILA!
The head ball goes flying towards the hole.
It really isn't that hard to gauge once you figure out the way to shoot it.
And based on the results when hitting it properly, i can't really see why anyone wouldn't take the shot to begin with as when the head ball hangs near the hole, 8 out of 10 times, the bottom ball that has banked 2 rails, is hanging out in the vicinity of the hole as well, which makes defensive play even more tricky.
If anything, the people that are not confident on the shot should just go out and set it up and practice it.
It just might win you a game one day.
Superstar,
I don't think anyone is arguing that the shot is both playable, and makable.
If you are going to wager on it's success, you will be shooting it repeatedly, over and over and you will find the groove.
In the real world, the shot does not come up all that often, and I am telling you, very few top players would shoot that shot Hill,hill or for big cash,
whether needing 1 OR 2 balls. There are simply too many things that can go wrong.
Check out some accustat tapes of top players and you will find they rarely go for it. Even Efren, in his prime would find several safer ways to deal with it.
Dick
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I would think that most one pocket players that have posted on this thread are well aware of this shot and know how to execute it. I for one have made both balls a good number of times and many times have made one of the two. However sometimes the situation will made us think twice about trying this shot, the wager, opponent, table conditions, etc.
The truth is that because of the power that is needed for this shot does not let us know what the position of the balls will be for sure if a ball is not pocketed. In a very important game, I and I'm sure many like me, like to know exactly how the balls will lye when and if we turn the table over.
I have won enough games after an attempt of this from my opponent. Many times, because of the position of the cue ball, one of the two balls may set up for a bank, and needing two balls I have gone for it and won the game.
Against a weaker opponent, I definitely would rather wait and out move him. Instead of giving him an opportunity to win with one good shot.
I'm not saying it's not a good shot, I'm just saying that sometimes it's better to know exactly what your leaving.
I think that i will disagree with this.
I don't think that too many things can go wrong if you hit it right.
To me, it is no different then any other shot. Anyone can mishit a bank or move and sell out from where the cue ball lies.
Where in this situation, you have the option of a ball in hand behind the headstring, instead of having to shoot from where the cue ball lies.
That in itself is huge to me. It's not like your relying on where the cue ball stops to determine if you shoot it or not. You have prime pickings as to where you want to put it.
With that said, your never really going to get the chance to put the cue ball exactly where you want it to be anywhere else in the game, and that's what leads me to wanting to shoot it (despite the fact that i know how to hit it)
It reminds me of people that get ball in hand in 9 ball, and use ball in hand to play position on a safe, instead of playing safe with the actual ball in hand.
It doesn't get any better then ball in hand on a shot as far as i am concerned.
WHENEVER i was involved in some one pocket event, and had a match on a table, if there was enough time before hand, i would go see how the rails rolled, find the on the wall bank points, and shot a couple of these head ball shots to see how the table reacted to them i.e., new cloth, old nappy cloth etc etc.
I think that maybe part of the reason that certain players do not take the shot, is cause they have never really practiced it.
They would rather grind it out and hope that they can squeeze a win out of it.
That's fine. There is nothing wrong with that at all.
I'm just saying that in reality, i have seen situations where the player ducked, GOOD, and then was completely out moved and out shot from there and lost the game.
I have seen people try to bank the back ball cross corner, only to not make it and have whoever they were playing, slice in the ball off the spot, and then take the initiative away from them and put them on the defensive after they got to move first.
I also know that in the majority of these situations, that this shot was never even thought about, and i am pretty sure that it really isn't an option to those people simply because they don't know the dynamics of it.
They didn't take it cause to them, it was some type of trick shot.
I know what i think is right for me, is not right for everyone.
That being said, i will choose to go down the toilet, taking a shot to win.
I mean, to me, i'm taking a shot to win that puts both balls in play towards my hole.
TWO chances to win.
To me it's a no brainer.
As an offensive shot, it offers the least amount of cue ball movement, and both object balls are a threat. With any other offensive shot, the cue ball is flying and who knows if you will sell out of not.
Last time i shot this shot in a match, it was hill hill in games, and i needed 1 and he needed 2 for $500, probably around last summer.
He looked like he was gonna kill himself when the headball flew in cause he NEVER saw it coming.
But how would i have felt if i had ducked, and gotten out moved from there?
I'd want to shoot myself in the head for not taking a shot to win it.
I guess it all depends on your personality.
To each their own.
protect your cash
This post exactly mirrors my opinion. This makes at least two of us.
Rod.
TAP TAP TAP
This post exactly mirrors my opinion. This makes at least two of us.
Rod.
Go for the win.
But i see what your saying. Nothing wrong with that type of thinking.
I think that's why C.J goes for the other shot the majority of the time.
Cause it's more of an aggressive duck, that can win you the game at the same time.
I was also trying that shot last night, but the rails at the particular pool hall don't make it easy to avoid that kiss you are talking about.
You have to hit it slightly different to avoid the kiss, but that changes the dynamics of the shot so that it ends up being more move, and less shot to the hole.
But i see what your saying. Nothing wrong with that type of thinking.
I think that's why C.J goes for the other shot the majority of the time.
Cause it's more of an aggressive duck, that can win you the game at the same time.
I was also trying that shot last night, but the rails at the particular pool hall don't make it easy to avoid that kiss you are talking about.
You have to hit it slightly different to avoid the kiss, but that changes the dynamics of the shot so that it ends up being more move, and less shot to the hole.
#1 is definitely the case. The shot hit at correct speed does not need a forceful stroke and the cue ball does not need to be addressed at its lowest point. You can really address the cue ball about halfway between its lowest point and center ball. That, combined with a firm stroke, should be enough to get whitey back down table.
If some people are actually trying #2, they should find a new hobby.
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Good post!
I think you make some excellent points and state them very well! Speaking of Efren, how often have you seen him hit ANY shot with the power/speed needed to send that front ball directly into a pocket. Does that tell you anything?
I think you make some excellent points and state them very well! Speaking of Efren, how often have you seen him hit ANY shot with the power/speed needed to send that front ball directly into a pocket. Does that tell you anything?
I believe it is #4 that first goes...
SUPERSTAR, I think you are a much stronger one-pocket player than I am and I'm not going to try and convince you to play the shot any differently than you now do. Just wanted to say that the phrase that jumped out at me from your post is in red above. As I read it, I was thinking to myself, heck, NOTHING can go wrong with a shot if you hit it right.
Efren is an alien and does not count.
We are talking about the rest of the world, NON-ALIEN population!
Efren is an alien and does not count.
We are talking about the rest of the world, NON-ALIEN population!
Point taken!
I'm off to the pool hall and assure all of you than I'm ducking if that shot comes up!:wink:
Remember that next time we play at Buffalo's. You have action.
I've always thought that the fifth ball was the first one that was makeable. But, I've never had the balls to shoot at the fourth ball, because I wasn't sure if it would go or not...and sometimes you can't afford to overcut a ball by 1/8th of an inch.
On topic, I would play safe here, even though I have made the TV shot for money....It just seems like you sell out a bank more often than you win from there.
I like the Cliff Joyner safe better than forcing the head ball through the back ball.