Open Letter To Mr Andrews, Mr Sugel and Mr Trudeau

[Mr. Wilson]

I'm not anonymous and while I don't know who this person is, I can say that there is some validity to what they've said. I was told some of this information a few weeks ago but haven't said anything because there's someone in the know better than myself that I wanted to talk to first. I haven't had a chance to speak to this person yet so I won't give any details to anything other than to say that before people on here call this anonymous person a liar, troll, whatever one wants to call them, just know that this person, whoever they are, is pretty deep in the know.

I'm sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop.

As you seem to know whos "pretty deep in the know", you wouldn't know who " Big Money" is.....would you?

 

[straybullet]

The acronym is IPT, not ITP, and I wouldn't go calling the whole shebang a bunch of crooks. That does a disservice to the many men and women who are trying to do a good job and have done so by putting on several spectacular tournaments.

If you think you are warning people away from the IPT, I think the ones that are leery are going to stay away anyway and the ones that support the IPT are going to stay loyal unless something major happens that warrants caution or the end of their support.

Linda

I'm your friend, I love you to death, but I find many of these excuses to be extremely weak. Mike Sigel went out of his way to insult you as player publicly. It pissed me off to hear about his comments, and then it pissed me off to read them. Of course the IPT has given you the opportunity to play on their tour, but at what cost? If Mike Sigel had said those things about me I would not be here defending him, and neither should you. I told you that I would have kicked him and you know where I would have kicked him.

As far as the pay issues, it is inexcusable to have the players wait this long. I think all of you will be paid eventually, but something's not right.

I have never heard of this Trainer guy, but he sound like a real character. Based on what I have heard about him, I'd stay far away from him and I would keep my money away from him too.

Loyalty involves mutual trust, faith and respect from each side. I see too much on one side and DEFINITELY not enough on the other. I know that you are very loyal to them, but I can't support them when they go out of their way to disrespect my friend when she is publicly supporting their tour. You have been so supportive of them and they've gone out of their way to treat you like crap. IMO, they don't deserve to have you on their tour and they don't deserve or appreciate your loyalty or support.

 

[Timberly]

I'm sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop.

As you seem to know whos "pretty deep in the know", you wouldn't know who " Big Money" is.....would you?

No, I do not. You can check the time line yourself. As soon as they made the 1st post I sent them a PM asking who they were and if I knew them. I also asked them to please email me to ensure their anonymity. I told them that they were going to catch a lot of flack due to them making a post of that nature anonymously.

They have not PM'd or emailed me but due to some of the things they said and the way that they said it, it's been fairly easy to narrow the list of possibilities down. If I were to find out exactly who it is, I would not divulge that information.

I liken this person to a "whistle blower". These people usually are doing someone or something a great service in getting "secret" information out to the people that are being screwed by said secret information and in the end they lose their job.

I've already said it on here and I'll say it one more time...after this, if people don't get it, they never will. If I were to go onto a large forum that was within my profession or go to a media outlet like tv or the newspaper and spoke out against my company and pointed out some of the things they were doing that would shed a bad light on the company, I would expect to be fired for doing so.

There are people in this world in all kinds of professions that know bad things about their employer. The majority of people keep quiet about it but once in a great while you get a whistle blower and the house of cards ends up falling down.

This person might be employed by a company in the pool world, or they might be someone like myself that is not employed by the pool world but knows vendors, sponsors, & players in the pool world. Whatever their reason is for needing to post anonymously, given the nature of their post, is it really so hard for people to figure out that they just might have to post anonymously in order to say what they've said? I've known some of the stuff they posted for months and I didn't say anything for a myriad of reasons. I could've come on here under a new name and said it, but I didn't. I chose to take a different route.

They made this post late Thur night... yesterday was the 1st full day and it was a work day, I didn't exactly have a lot of time to spend chasing people down. As I am able to confirm or discredit what this person said, I will make the post here as I get the information.

It's quite possible that this person simply wanted people on here to know that everything is not as it always seems. They might've just gotten sick of reading people posting stuff of which they know nothing about. 98% of the posts in the IPT section are by people that don't have the 1st clue about the truth of a lot of stuff that's actually going on behind the scenes. All they know is what they read from each other. While there might be a few IPT players on here that post, sometimes the players are the last to know what's going on.

When people like Big Money speak up and try to get the truth out while still trying to maintain their livelihood, I think they're doing a service to the players... giving them a heads up, telling them to pay attention and trust their instincts. Crucifying this person because they had to post anonymously still doesn't change what they said. The only reason I put my .02 in is because I had already been privy to some of what they said and I knew that by them posting anonymously, they would just get raked over the coals and no one would believe them. All I did was confirm that some of what they said had some validity. This way instead of people being quick to ignore & forget, they might actually stop and walk around with their eyes open on some of the matters that deal with the IPT.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

They renegotiated down to 25% of the players' prize money?? That's still ridiculous. I don't know Trainer's cost structure or exactly what services he's providing, but sports agents typically don't take a percentage fee of prize money. Especially not a fee that high.

A 25% cut by a "manager" is not that uncommon nor is it ridiculous. In other fields, a lawyer's cut can be 1/3 of the damage award. A hedge fund manager's take can be up to 50% of the profits generated. In software consulting, the consulting company can rake in up to 50% of what the contracter makes. I'm not defending Joiner's sizable cut of the player's winnings but I do want to put another perspective on this.

If an IPT player thinks they can do better on their own, then they should do so.

 

[TSW]

A 25% cut by a "manager" is not that uncommon nor is it ridiculous. In other fields, a lawyer's cut can be 1/3 of the damage award. A hedge fund manager's take can be up to 50% of the profits generated. In software consulting, the consulting company can rake in up to 50% of what the contracter makes.

Lawyers working on contingency, hedge fund managers, and software consultancies aren't sports agents. You're comparing apples to oranges. The risk factors and level of involvement are entirely different. Trainer's deal isn't close to market.

 

[vagabond]

The players should've never signed to begin with but they were really mislead. They were in a foreign country where they do not speak the language. (just this very moment I remembered a question that I wanted to ask the person I was talking to about this...dang it!) It was rumored that the original talk behind closed doors where the contracts were signed, was done so with an interpreter that Trainer provided.

If push comes to shove and one starts getiing into legal knitty gritty,the contracts will become Null & void if there is no proper certification of translation services.

 

[Timberly]

A 25% cut by a "manager" is not that uncommon nor is it ridiculous.

Mr. Trainer is not the players mgr. This is different than a personal mgr, like say the Colonel was to Elvis. The supposed purpose of Mr. Trainer is to market the players and get them endorsement deals. A "mgr" of this capacity generally gets 10% or there abouts from whatever endorsement deal they are able to get for the player. They only get paid if the player gets paid for an endorsement that they got for the player. The players actual mgr is generally paid a set salary from the players/actors winnings/salary.

Mr. Trainer is actually dabbling in things generally not done by an endorsement mgr... travel arrangements, "loans", things of this nature. I don't begrudge Mr. Trainer making a living if he wants to put up his own money to cover these expenses. I personally don't like the payback structure he has come up with but to each his own. If someone understands the contract in full and is aware of everything and they feel that it works for them, then more power to them. I do not believe this was the case with the Filipinos.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Lawyers working on contingency, hedge fund managers, and software consultancies aren't sports agents. You're comparing apples to oranges. The risk factors and level of involvement are entirely different. Trainer's deal isn't close to market.

What exactly is the "market rate" for sports agents in pool?

Monopolistic and predatorial behaviors share common elements in different types of businesses. In the IPT, Trainer has a first kid-on-the-block edge in this market so he is charging what the market will bear, however high the price may be. As competition develops, the market rates should go down and contractual terms should become more favorable to the players.

 

[arian dacongan]

there's PROBOBLY some truth about what big money just wrote...although there is no solid evidence.we don't know for sure.but since pool players and fanatic fans are soooo smart they can smell some rot from miles away and only to find that the rot they smell is from their mouth since their mouth is so close to their nose.

now about mark trainer ,,and cuetechasaurus commnets that filipinos are angry,,i have personally talked to the top players that sign -up and i can assure you that they are not angry,,,what i know for fact is that they felt they regret signing -in hastily but for sure not angry.

Bottomline is players have control on their decisions.i for one believe that ipt execs did some questionnable things-but oh so shallow that it doesn't fix the whole toutnament..not even the first round.Now by saying this i don't mean to agree or condone what they did in fixing sigel's bracket....but i'm sure they have learned and stopped because of some outcry....none of that went on to the world open.

ipt -even if it collapse right now still won't hurt pool as some ipt bashers claim...how???????

at least it gave us a taste of what it's like to see big and real tournaments.business people always gets to make hard decision something business people will never know unless they own a serious business.
kt is doing what he can to make ipt works ...but in the end ..i believe and i hope that he will do the right thing.

 

[Timberly]

Mr Trudeau and Mr Andrews sat at dinner before the Vegas tournament slating in the spots of the players where evere they wished to put them. This is a known fact that was reported by JR Calvert of InsidePool. From what we were told, you awoke JR Calvert in the middle of the night to have him pull the article they did regarding this mismanagement of tournament bracketing.

Because “Big Money” singled Mr. Calvert out in their post I called Mr. Calvert to see if there was any truth in the matter.

Mr. Calvert said that he along with other people from the media were present at the players meeting where over 200 people were in attendance. After the meeting was over he and his editor Ms. Timko went over their notes and produced a write up for their website. They did report on their website that Mr. Trudeau had stated how the draw was made and proceeded to elaborate on what Mr. Trudeau had said in front of 200+ people regarding the draw. In the end, for whatever reason, Mr. Calvert was asked to edit the original story.

At one time Mr. Calvert was also a pro pool player struggling to make a viable living playing pro pool. As many before and after him, it simply wasn’t possible. Because of his love of the game and the people in it, he was able to find another way to support himself and still remain in the pool world. Mr. Calvert is thrilled that the players today have the wonderful opportunity that Mr. Trudeau has provided. He wishes his friends, both the players and the IPT nothing but the very best and he’s looking forward to watching the tour prosper.


In my opinion...
A) The draw should've never been done like this.
B) Announcing it to 200+ people wasn't a very bright thing to do.
C) Asking that this information be removed from the site was really kind of silly since it was information they provided to 200+ people.

Take it for what it's worth but here's another question from the original post that's been answered.

 

[Timberly]

Open Letter To Mr. Andrews, Mr Sigel and Mr. Trudeau:

You all spouted off from day 1 on how this was going to be the greatest thing to happen to pool, and how you were not going to make the mistakes all the others have done in the past and how you were going to show us how to properly run a tournament.
This is a pretty accurate statement. Long before there was an IPT event, I was given the information that I've already stated about KT thinking everyone in the pool world was doing things wrong and that they wouldn't hire anyone from the current pool world due to this. On this, you'll have to take my word for it. I cannot give any details of who said it or what prompted the conversation. If I were to give any detail, it would essentially point out who said it and I will not do that to this person. I don't know this person on a personal level and I certainly don't have any ill will towards them. If I stated everything in that short conversation from beginning to end, it would cause them needless headaches.

This is what we have seen so far:

Shady dealings from day one on whom was "picked" to participate in the IPT.
I don't think there's anything shady as to how the players were picked. I don't agree with the way they did it. I think they should've started with qualifiers but it's not my tour and it wasn't my decision. If by shady, you mean that there's some players on the tour that did not fill out an application (other than the HOF players) then yes, I too have heard that. I don't think it's shady though. It's their tour and they had every right to pick & choose who they wanted.
Favoritism for elected players.
To date, the only "favoritism" that I'm aware of is the cushy draw that Mr. Sigel was given in Vegas and the other player on day one that showed up 20 min late and was allowed/told to play the match even though the opponent had already been told they had won by forfeit. (if we're going to step away from facts and talk speculation... I would say to watch the changes closely. Anytime there is a change in format/rules, ask yourself...Will this in anyway benefit MS). Mr. Sigel likes to talk and talk loudly. He was overheard saying that if he doesn't qualify, they will find a way for him to stay on the tour next yr. That's not verbatim but it's close.
Mr Trudeau and Mr Andrews sat at dinner before the Vegas tournament slating in the spots of the players where ever they wished to put them. This is a known fact that was reported by JR Calvert of InsidePool. From what we were told, you awoke JR Calvert in the middle of the night to have him pull the article they did regarding this mismanagement of tournament bracketing.
I've already commented on this.
Scout Man, Mr. Mark Trainer who is signing players to bogus contacts that rape the players, (which are actually worthless if you have signed it in the state of Nevada,because no known felon can venture into any gambling contract that includes management of players) .
I've already commented on this.
Mr. Sigel and Mr. Trudeau, we all know that your have your hands in this pot with Mr. Trainer. We all know that YOU own a percentage of the players who were so eager to sign before they considered the consequences of the contact they signed with you. In some states it would be called racketeering.
From the moment I found out that Mr. Sigel had signed with Mr. Trainer, I have speculated that both Mike and Kevin were in on this with Mr. trainer. I have no proof and will never speak of it as proof unless I have evidence of the fact. This was a conclusion I came up with by using simple common sense. If you take into consideration the amount of money Mr. Sigel won playing LLJ, the KOTH event, and the challenge matches at the qualifiers.... does anyone really believe that Mr. Sigel would need the services being offered by Mr. Trainer??
There is no contact phone number for your so called office in the Chicago area. There are only email addresses. If there was really a office with a personal who forgot to mark "Saturday Delivery" on the Fed Ex parcel with the checks in it, there should be a phone where she called for the pick up at.
I have not tried to contact the IPT through email or the phone. I have had difficulty in finding phone numbers to large companies in the past. LOL, try getting the phone number to one of the credit reporting agencies. They provided one on the report but it sent you in circles and there was no way to reach a human. I finally tracked down an office number and the operator refused to send me to anyone. I think a phone number to an office staffed with an IPT employee(s) that could answer questions and concerns would be good PR and good customer service.
The ITP is full of crooks. Be forwarned people, Mr Trudeau is known for his scams, this is just one of them.
I won't say that the IPT is "full of crooks" I will say that it's a well known fact that Mr. Trudeau has been convicted in the past and so has Mr. Trainer. Other than Mr. Trudeau, I know of no other IPT employee that has a criminal record. I will say that due to his past criminal record, Mr. Trudeau should be jumping through hoops and trying as hard as he can to make sure everything is on the up and up. Hand picking the tournament chart, changing the payout dates (from the end of each round to the end of the tournament), and then not having the checks available at the end of the tournament is not helping his cause. Mr. Trudeau is and will be scrutinized more so than someone else would be due to his past. He really needs to take this into consideration and bust his a$$ to make sure things are done professionally and legitimately.

This is all that I can say in reference to the original post. Take it for what it's worth.

I would like to extend a thank you to Mr. Trudeau. There are (unbeknown to Jake ) some very nice, decent, good people that happen to be pool players. Some of these guys have a lot more money in their bank accounts because of Mr. Trudeau and for that, I thank you. I might not agree with everything where the IPT is involved and I might be a royal pain in the a$$ where somethings are concerned with the IPT but it's simply because I want to see nothing but the best for my friends.

I hope that the issue with the checks in Reno is resolved quickly and that steps have now been put into place to ensure that something like this never happens again. I also hope that this tour will continue and become a mainstay in the pool community. I want to see my friends making good money for playing a difficult game so well. I want to see them make a viable living at it and I want to watch it all on TV. I want to walk down the street and ask someone to name 3 pro pool players and end up having them name 10+.

It would be nice if this tour could get it's act together and not generate so much controversy.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Timberly,

Ok, so where is all this info on diabolical plots coming from then?

Spill the beans if you have info that is going to help protect our players, don't keep it to yourself.

 

[TSW]

Monopolistic and predatorial behaviors share common elements in different types of businesses. In the IPT, Trainer has a first kid-on-the-block edge in this market so he is charging what the market will bear, however high the price may be. As competition develops, the market rates should go down and contractual terms should become more favorable to the players.

True, but that doesn't mean Trainer's contracts aren't legally unconscionable. If I were an IPT player, I'd at least investigate means of breaching and getting out of what amounts to a very bad deal for most of them.

 

[Timberly]

Timberly,

Ok, so where is all this info on diabolical plots coming from then?

Spill the beans if you have info that is going to help protect our players, don't keep it to yourself.

As I said, take it for whats its worth Dave. Don't like it, don't believe it? No skin off my back.

I didn't start the d@mn the thread, I simply said that there was some validity to it. I also offered to find out what could & could not be confirmed. Which I did.

LOL, it's funny how people get somewhat defensive in their posts when they've learned that they don't know everything.

This thread was the only reason I posted on anything outside of the DCC. A) Because I knew some of what this person said was true
B) Because I knew this person would only end up catching flak for being anonymous.

You said....

Allow me to interject, you are an anonymous face in the crowd.

Maybe your complaints would mean more if they came from someone with enough credibility to post under thier real name.

I'm not anonymous and whether you like it or not, I do have quite a bit of credibility. Are the answers not good enough for you because they came from me, Dave? Please see what I just quoted, notate that your interjection was heeded and answered by someone that wasn't anonymous and that has credibility. I don't know what else to tell you.

Now that I have proven that there is some validity to the original post as I had said, I no longer have a need for this thread. There's nothing from my point of view to discuss, esp with people that aren't in the know and refuse to believe when they're told things by people in the know. Discuss it among yourselves, I'm going back to keeping my posts relegated to the DCC.

Toodles!

 

[cuetechasaurus]

now about mark trainer ,,and cuetechasaurus commnets that filipinos are angry,,i have personally talked to the top players that sign -up and i can assure you that they are not angry,,,what i know for fact is that they felt they regret signing -in hastily but for sure not angry.

I don't believe you. They are very angry and want OUT of the contracts, the last I knew of this was yesterday evening, and since I want to be vague on who told me this, I will just say that this person is more "in the know" about this 'deal' than everyone here, including Linda.

Sorry Linda, but you've become Mark Trainer's puppet. You even said that in one of your posts further back, he spoke and you typed for him. How do we even know if it's not him defending himself? LOL

 

[rackmsuckr]

I don't believe you. They are very angry and want OUT of the contracts, the last I knew of this was yesterday evening, and since I want to be vague on who told me this, I will just say that this person is more "in the know" about this 'deal' than everyone here, including Linda.

Sorry Linda, but you've become Mark Trainer's puppet. You even said that in one of your posts further back, he spoke and you typed for him. How do we even know if it's not him defending himself? LOL

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I am just relaying messages. I am not for or against MT, but please don't think I am channeling for him.

As far as being 'in the know', I will be the first to admit that I am not! MT expressly asked to talk to me in Reno and I told you what he told me. He was NOT present in my office when I typed what happened. End of story. I have not even wanted to be in this mix, lol.

FWIW, when my kids modeled, their agent took 15% from their cut and another 15% from the people they were advertising for. And that was on jobs that were already booked. That's all I know of the agent/client relationship...and that was 10 years ago.

 

[Hal]

Maybe your complaints would mean more if they came from someone with enough credibility to post under thier real name.

News flash. We're not required to use our real names.

 

[bobroberts]

I keep on reading about whos in the know.It seems like no one knows anything but inuendos and bs. If thats the way they want to run their tour so be it.No one is forcing any player to join the IPTor hiring an agency.It also seems that the Fillipino players have Efrens and Bustamantes manager they can talk to if they had questions about this MT.
I think this whole discussion is BS and I wont read any more on it or care.
Most regular players couldnt care less whats going on behind the scenes anyway.Thats my rant and I am shutting down my computer for the night.

 

[justnum]

Based on individual reports that have postively been affected by the IPT money is good.

I have notice a pool hall host several qualifier events. In my area this is a pool hall that is not exactly known as a pool player hall. If this is how the IPT conducts itself to generate money by selling membership to pool room owners. It really doesnt affect me.

There is no free lunch. Im guessing it costs pool owners a lot of money to host an IPT sanctioned event. What the ratio of money being moved around is I do not know. Since the owners have taken the costs of big money it has been great for the players.

This is taking an opposite direction of the trickle down effect and Im curious to see how it plays out.

 

[Cameron Smith]

y'know the problem with internet forums are two fold. 1. anyone can post anything. 2. you can't truly know who people are in many situations.

I can post "Scott Smith recently had a blow out with Barry Berhman over alligations of match fixing. He told me that he was done with the US Open". This is an entirely untrue story, however it suggests "insider information". Had it been posted as truth by someone else, an unknown, it would have started a multi page thread (like this one) with people debating it's validity (as people are here).

As for this Big Money dude, I will believe the information if I hear it confirmed by someone I know to be credible. That this person posted these accusations a few days ago and leaves us to speculate doesn't say much.