If you wanted to open a pool room/somthing (night clu, mini bar) how could you test area to see if there would be a interest.
Opening a room...
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Testing Area
Not sure how exactly to do this but a lot places...Used....to have a pool room so go to barbershops and see if anyone remembers a pool room. Talk to some cops they would know, senior center and see if they used to go to one. That would be my suggestion. Sometimes civic clubs will have a place with pool tables in them.
336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
Not sure how exactly to do this but a lot places...Used....to have a pool room so go to barbershops and see if anyone remembers a pool room. Talk to some cops they would know, senior center and see if they used to go to one. That would be my suggestion. Sometimes civic clubs will have a place with pool tables in them.
336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
I'd look for a large population center with at least 1 million people in 25 mile radius but would prefer 2 million.
I'd look for a prosperous area with people with plenty of disposable cash that like to drink.
Given those two criteria I'm mostly likely to open a room in a college town but it will be more of a bar/club with lots of drink promotions to bring in the ladies. If that can be achieved, the men will come. They may not even play pool but if they come to drink then the pool players can play pool.
I think you'd need a minimum of $1MM to start a new room and more likely $2-$3MM. To give it a fair shot of making it.
Sadly, if you have $2-$3MM to invest I believe you can do better with other business ventures than a pool room/ bar. If the Bar is very good though you can make money over time.
If it were me, and I've actually considered doing it, I would do the following.
Forget opening a pool hall or a bar with pool tables.
Open a real restaurant that has a pool room. Something like where the kitchen would divide the space and one side would be a real restaurant and the other a pool "room" with at least 10 tables.
Then, the number one thing you will need to do is ADVERTISE.
If someone buys a dinner then they get an hour of pool play as a promo. Stuff like that.
The tricky part would be to keep the noise from the pool room from interfering wth the people just eating dinner.
One of the things that I think turn people away from pool halls is that they tend to cater to the rougher crowd rather than the milder crowd.
There was one here in my area that has been going for over 25 years. I was there the first week they opened and they had it right. The room wasn't dark and dank. It was well lit and lots of room for playing. They had a range of tables from 7 foot to 9 foot. Something for everyone. And they even had a "players" table for twice the rate of the "practice" tables. This table always had the best felt and was well cared for.
When people got rowdy they were ejected for a month. If they had a fight the expulsion was longer.
But, when the place was sold to someone else after 10 years, the crowd changed. It was catering more to the much younger crowd. They started piping music into the hall and that drove away a lot of people. They raised the prices on the tables AND on the food and no longer had hot food. They only had chips and soda.
There was no more expert on site and you can't buy a cue there anymore. I haven't been back in 15 years.
BUT, because the place was well advertised and was good in the beginning it's been going for the 25 years.
Other pool halls start up and die fast. They always have the same business plan though. Put in a bunch of tables, hire a burly guy to hand out the pool balls. Allow him to be distracted so you have to wait 10 minutes to get your rack or to square up and they always last less than a year.
I know my boys loved to play when they were younger but there was no place to take them. Open up a family place and you will be golden.
Forget opening a pool hall or a bar with pool tables.
Open a real restaurant that has a pool room. Something like where the kitchen would divide the space and one side would be a real restaurant and the other a pool "room" with at least 10 tables.
Then, the number one thing you will need to do is ADVERTISE.
If someone buys a dinner then they get an hour of pool play as a promo. Stuff like that.
The tricky part would be to keep the noise from the pool room from interfering wth the people just eating dinner.
One of the things that I think turn people away from pool halls is that they tend to cater to the rougher crowd rather than the milder crowd.
There was one here in my area that has been going for over 25 years. I was there the first week they opened and they had it right. The room wasn't dark and dank. It was well lit and lots of room for playing. They had a range of tables from 7 foot to 9 foot. Something for everyone. And they even had a "players" table for twice the rate of the "practice" tables. This table always had the best felt and was well cared for.
When people got rowdy they were ejected for a month. If they had a fight the expulsion was longer.
But, when the place was sold to someone else after 10 years, the crowd changed. It was catering more to the much younger crowd. They started piping music into the hall and that drove away a lot of people. They raised the prices on the tables AND on the food and no longer had hot food. They only had chips and soda.
There was no more expert on site and you can't buy a cue there anymore. I haven't been back in 15 years.
BUT, because the place was well advertised and was good in the beginning it's been going for the 25 years.
Other pool halls start up and die fast. They always have the same business plan though. Put in a bunch of tables, hire a burly guy to hand out the pool balls. Allow him to be distracted so you have to wait 10 minutes to get your rack or to square up and they always last less than a year.
I know my boys loved to play when they were younger but there was no place to take them. Open up a family place and you will be golden.
Out of the places available to me to play in my town, I by far prefer one over the others. Partly, it's location (downtown) but the other is the food and service. Serve GOOD hot food and a good selection of drinks, keep the tables clean and the noise level down and you're golden.
I also love that it's got a big bank of windows so you don't feel like you're in a cave. They all face east so no worry about glare in the afternoon or night.
I also love that it's got a big bank of windows so you don't feel like you're in a cave. They all face east so no worry about glare in the afternoon or night.
The biggest trick is to stay away from il.,cal,ny to avoid over the hill hosing of taxes. Next keep table rates down in this poor economy. Then you will make it in a major city. Big govt,abundance of regulations & high taxes is cleaning this country out! Precisely why politicians have ruined it. About them selves as well as any govt job associated with big salaries & retirements!!
absolutely a hall for all is awesome !
Traffic counts
There are companies (and sometimes the local municipalities do it themselves) that specialize in traffic counts. This is how they find the best places to put in things like gas stations. Population numbers mean nothing if you can't get people to go past your place.
Next is finding a place that you can afford. Don't expect to be in the hottest downtown spots and afford the rent. Something close by but where traffic passes you to get to the other helps.
Another idea is to find a marketing gimmick. What can you do to set your place apart from someone else. As an example, a room I go to is an old bank building and still has the big safe door at one end of the room. So the place is called "The Bank Shot."
There are a ton more to consider but these things stick out to me.
There are companies (and sometimes the local municipalities do it themselves) that specialize in traffic counts. This is how they find the best places to put in things like gas stations. Population numbers mean nothing if you can't get people to go past your place.
Next is finding a place that you can afford. Don't expect to be in the hottest downtown spots and afford the rent. Something close by but where traffic passes you to get to the other helps.
Another idea is to find a marketing gimmick. What can you do to set your place apart from someone else. As an example, a room I go to is an old bank building and still has the big safe door at one end of the room. So the place is called "The Bank Shot."
There are a ton more to consider but these things stick out to me.
Former room owner here-- if I were to open a pool room again it would be in a workingman's area, not a rich town. I would like it to be in a populated area, or on a well traveled busy road. I would own the building. If I can't I would like the end spot in a small strip mall with lots of parking. I would have 15-20 tables. There can be no nooks or crannys. The deskman must be able to see every square inch of the floor (except the bathrooms). TV's placed throughout with one being a very big screen in the main waiting area and near the bar/service area. Jukebox is a must. Also need two or three areas that customers can rent and play the latest video games. I would not serve full alcohol. Just beer and wine. I would have a "laid back" kitchen that served the regular stuff, burgers, hot dogs, fries, wings, onion rings, and some other type foods. You come here for friends, fun, a couple of drinks and something quick to eat because you are getting hungry, and pool. In that order. I would have a spot for the smokers away from the main door. I would make it as comfortable as the local ordinances allow.
As a final thing-- this isn't the Boys Club. People can't just come in and hang around. If they are in the building you are receiving some kind of revenue. If 6 people come in and only 2 want to play, you put all 6 on time. 90% of any trouble is caused by people who are just hanging around. They have no investment in the place.
You don' need $2mm to open this place. There are tons of perfectly good used tables in storage out there. Plan on working Friday and Saturday nights yourself. You can expect to put in 55-70 hours a week.
Good luck!
Bob Campbell
As a final thing-- this isn't the Boys Club. People can't just come in and hang around. If they are in the building you are receiving some kind of revenue. If 6 people come in and only 2 want to play, you put all 6 on time. 90% of any trouble is caused by people who are just hanging around. They have no investment in the place.
You don' need $2mm to open this place. There are tons of perfectly good used tables in storage out there. Plan on working Friday and Saturday nights yourself. You can expect to put in 55-70 hours a week.
Good luck!
Bob Campbell
Bob thank you for your reply. Since you say it wouldn't take $2 million to open your room and yet you want to own the land and building, can you give us an estimate of how much it would take to open your room and make sure you have money to keep it open and money for marketing at least for the first year?
I realize real estate prices vary from region to region so I am only seeking an estimate, you pick the region.
Thanks
IF I had the money to buy the property I would. If not you should need 5-7,000 square feet. I don't know what the costs are in your area. Remember, you have to be able to see every square inch of the floor. You can buy used gold crowns for $1-1500. The grill would be your biggest expense. But again, you can buy all this stuff used. I had a local guy build my bar for me for short dollars. It was great. If I had $100,000 I could build a palace. If I had $50,000 I could certainly open a good room.
Your timing is not great though. This is the busiest period (between xmas and new year) when everyone is home visiting, plants are shut down and schools are closed. If you were to start today you wouldn't be open until the spring...and who wants to be inside. Also, I don't now how long it would take to get the beer/wine license.
Bob
Your timing is not great though. This is the busiest period (between xmas and new year) when everyone is home visiting, plants are shut down and schools are closed. If you were to start today you wouldn't be open until the spring...and who wants to be inside. Also, I don't now how long it would take to get the beer/wine license.
Bob
I know there are a lot of empty Blockbuster buildings here in the Northwest. They typically are 5k square feet and being modern buildings are not cheap. On the flip side, a modern building will be much cheaper to maintain and heat/cool than a 100-year-old place.
Here in my small town, video gaming/gambling keeps a lot of places alive. The games need to be out of the sight and away from minors. Some places fudge a little on that and get away with it, but I wouldn't risk it.
In a 5k square foot building, if you add a grill and games, you'll have less space for tables, but I think it could be done.
However, you won't see me taking this kind of risk, even though I daydream about it.
I've gone so far as to discuss an after school program with the YMCA here. I think the key to continued success is to get the kids in the door. I'd make some t-shirts for the kids along the theme of "I study physics at Bank Shot Billiards" with table diagram and physics formula graphic....
Youth leagues or father/son and mother/daughter leagues might do the trick.
I'd also add darts to the room with enough machines to have an inhouse league.
By the way, the term that I haven't read is market research. The problem is that I'm not sure how to do it for this type of business.
Anyway......
Here in my small town, video gaming/gambling keeps a lot of places alive. The games need to be out of the sight and away from minors. Some places fudge a little on that and get away with it, but I wouldn't risk it.
In a 5k square foot building, if you add a grill and games, you'll have less space for tables, but I think it could be done.
However, you won't see me taking this kind of risk, even though I daydream about it.
I've gone so far as to discuss an after school program with the YMCA here. I think the key to continued success is to get the kids in the door. I'd make some t-shirts for the kids along the theme of "I study physics at Bank Shot Billiards" with table diagram and physics formula graphic....
Youth leagues or father/son and mother/daughter leagues might do the trick.
I'd also add darts to the room with enough machines to have an inhouse league.
By the way, the term that I haven't read is market research. The problem is that I'm not sure how to do it for this type of business.
Anyway......
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Ask C.J. Wiley!
I would ask CJ since he ran one of the best pool halls in Texas and owned a night club for a while. He's a savvy business man that could offer you some great pointers.
I would ask CJ since he ran one of the best pool halls in Texas and owned a night club for a while. He's a savvy business man that could offer you some great pointers.
All good points. I don't think you could reasonably get one of those Blockbuster buildings. Though they would be perfect. I had 14 tables in 5000 sq feet. I think the tops for rent would be $3-3500. For that you are not in prime space. You are in space that is a little out of the way. Maybe in a failing strip mall. But you don't care. They are coming to your room to play pool. You are a destination.
Wow...if you could get poker machines that would turn the tide. You can make a pretty good living if you can add those. I agree with the darts. I forgot those.
Sounds nice with the Y and the kids. But you don't make any money on them. Don't waste your time. You are looking for the blue collar guy that on his way home from work will shoot an hour or two of pool, have three beers and a burger and drop $20 in the poker machine.
IMHO of course.
Bob
Some successful rooms give the layouts on their web sites.
Fargo Billiards - Mike Page posts here
http://www.fargobilliards.com/rates-and-table-map/
A high end operation in Toronto - not specifically a pool operation - multiple rooms
The Academy of Spherical Arts - 1 Snooker Street
http://www.sphericalarts.com/
Good video
Around Toronto, storefront locations have been going out of business, those located in commercial, service, and lower end retail malls seem to be doing OK. probably because the storefronts have expensive parking, malls have free parking.
Fargo Billiards - Mike Page posts here
http://www.fargobilliards.com/rates-and-table-map/
A high end operation in Toronto - not specifically a pool operation - multiple rooms
The Academy of Spherical Arts - 1 Snooker Street
http://www.sphericalarts.com/
Good video
Around Toronto, storefront locations have been going out of business, those located in commercial, service, and lower end retail malls seem to be doing OK. probably because the storefronts have expensive parking, malls have free parking.
I think you could probably poll the people here on AZB. For instance --
If you live within 30 miles of XX town please complete this pool survey to help us decide if it is worth opening a pool hall in xx town
How many people do you know who would be likely to play pool in a commercial pool room / bar / nightclub (fill in to suit) for two or more hours a week?
Please PM me with any additional information you might have on the local players.
It is not scientific but it could get you a handle.
It might be worthwhile to find out what leagues are available and to incorporate a league or two into your operation to increase traffic. In my experience league operators have a pretty good handle on the numbers of serious players in town.
There may be a regional pool players news paper that lists local tournaments and bars who support players. The editors on these papers also have a good handle on the pool and dart players.
The numbers of bars with pool tables might be a reasonable indicator of the numbers of people who are interested in playing pool. People in town can provide estimates of the amount of traffic and the seriousness with which the bar players are taking the game.
Have a drawing for a pool related prize and see how many enter.
Use the snowball sampling technique that we use in the social sciences. Find a few serious players, ask them about the local players and have the people you talk to refer you to other players. You can learn a great deal in a few months of individual interviews. This also lets you screen out multiple reports and gives a pretty good idea about the local perceived needs.
Create a local web site and ask for input on what people would want to see in your room. I have done this before and it works surprisingly well. It takes a few months to get it off the ground with you spreading the word by various means.
After you have a handle on the local player population the success would depend on your ability to create interest for new players to take up the game. I think that many people fall down here because they do not realize that they must generate interest through various means. I suspect that Fargo Billiards is probably a good example for how to build a business.
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First realize what type of demographics your going after, these patrons will pay you bills and keep you afloat. Once you have figured out who they are and where they might be (kinds sounds like fishing), then figure out a way to let them know, that's the initial Tough part.
Oh yeah, good luck....and happy new years.
Something to add to my idea of a good pool room (and add to the cost, as well) would be to install table cams at every table.
If an argument breaks out about cheating or whatever, just do a replay (for a small fee). The staff would be the ultimate referee.
Also, if you want to avoid fighting, establish "house rules" which are clearly defined. Identify how banks, caroms, slop, etc are handled. Adapt a rule that, in the absense of stated variables, House Rules Apply.
Have a regular table mechanic to felt, level, and balance the tables on a regular basis. If necessary (and practical) keep him on staff. Good tables bring good patrons.
If an argument breaks out about cheating or whatever, just do a replay (for a small fee). The staff would be the ultimate referee.
Also, if you want to avoid fighting, establish "house rules" which are clearly defined. Identify how banks, caroms, slop, etc are handled. Adapt a rule that, in the absense of stated variables, House Rules Apply.
Have a regular table mechanic to felt, level, and balance the tables on a regular basis. If necessary (and practical) keep him on staff. Good tables bring good patrons.
!. Don't get involved with the arguments. They either behave or hit the road. I do like the camera idea in one respect. You could video people playing and let them go online and see a replay. That will interest the "fun" players.
2. You own the tables, you learn how to care for them. You can't afford to carry extra staff. The more people you have working the less money there is for you.
Bob
One thing is for sure. If you are going to open any kind of business, marketing can make or break you. Most places that make it have had or have great marketing. There is a local guy around town that started out in a tent with his business. He had some great marketing strategies and is now extremely successful, but he aslo continues the marketing campaigns. He realizes that is what got him where he is, and if he wants to stay there, he must still continue to spend money on ads and such. Personally I would explore the cost of advertising in various areas and combine that with the cost of what it would cost to open. Even if you have a great place, if the word is not getting out fast, you could lose a lot in a very short time.
Years ago when I went to college the rule of thumb was to have at a minimum, enough money to last an entire year if you turned little or no profit. I would guess this is still a sound strategy, but I could be wrong as it's been a few years since I went to school.
Years ago when I went to college the rule of thumb was to have at a minimum, enough money to last an entire year if you turned little or no profit. I would guess this is still a sound strategy, but I could be wrong as it's been a few years since I went to school.