outside english
- Thread starter Luxury
- Start date
Luxury said:
Hi Luxury,
It is quite common for pros to use Outside Gearing English. Though they may not all be sure why they are doing it. It certainly seems to make the angle estimation easier and it reduces the effect of skids.
What it does, if the right amount of OE is used for the angle required, is cancel out throw effects, so that the OB travels exactly along the line normal to the contact point.
Below is a graph showing how much OE is required for various cat angles.
This comes from Dr. Dave's article here:
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/2007/jan07.pdf
Also, for much more detailed info of similar nature, check all of Dr. Dave's articles here:
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/
Colin
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You're welcome Luxury.Luxury said:
In my estimation, 90% of pro-level and shortstop level guys I've met to do not have much knowledge of the actual physical principles involved in the game.
What they do have is great knowledge about what works for them and what doesn't on a great range of shots. And they are accurate shooters and great shot selectors. They're usually unsure about the why and how of much physical phenomenon such as squirt and throw.
Colin
Drew said:
There's a pretty good argument that players would be better off just playing and not analyzing too much. Certainly paralysis by analysis has caught out a lot of pool players from time to time.
But certain aspects of the game can certainly benefit from systematic analysis. Kicking systems come to mind as a great example. BHE is another example.
I prefer the concept that bad analysis causes paralysis. I think that well formulated systems based on an accurate understanding of the variables, have the potential to systematize more areas of game play. This is something I am currently working on with Dr. Dave.
What I hope that will mean, is that beginners will have a set of tools that will allow them to fast forward their abilities in playing shots with any type of spin required, and they will know the exact adjustments required. Rather than trying to learn them all from trial and error.
Once learned, a system becomes a bit like having remembered the math times tables. It becomes automatic, so then all the player has to do is focus on the feel aspects of alignment and speed control.
Colin
Actually, I think many use it because they can use a full stroke and the QB will travel naturally and is easier to control. Thus no skids or scratches, or choking. The full stroke is the key. Watch the players shoot a 9 into the corner at an angle. They will full stroke it two rails around any pockets. JMHO.
Colin Colenso said:
Oh I was just saying that most pros (not shortstop guys) could tell you why they specifically use outside english to pocket the nine ball. I doubt you've met that many clueless pros that couldn't answer that very question. I do know where you are coming from though in a very general sense.
He posts regularly at www.billiardsdigest.com . I don't think he gives lessons, but he has a lot of materials to study on his website and in his book.Drew said:
See: http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/
Colin
He also has a monthly article in BD. He makes lots of good points but the language is too technical for me. It throws me off in my thinking.. gets me jumbled up. It's a personal flaw of mine. 
Mark Wilson or Nick Varner also write for BD and they can say the same thing as Dr. Dave but they'll say it without the scientific vocabulary and I hear it more clearly that way. It's because I have NO education in science.
Mark Wilson or Nick Varner also write for BD and they can say the same thing as Dr. Dave but they'll say it without the scientific vocabulary and I hear it more clearly that way. It's because I have NO education in science.
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Another reason that your post prompted me to recall, is that it is advantageous to hit the CB as central as possible to reduce any chance of miscuing. But a pure stun shot results in quite noticeable amounts of throw and at slow speeds increase the chance of cling / skid, so a touch of outside english is a good compromise.Luxury said:
Colin
Colin Colenso said:
As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know.
Let's say the nine ball is about a diamond out from the corner and the cue is in the middle of the table. Play it low-outside and stroke it confidently. You cannot scratch, so speed control and scratching are taken out of the equation...
It's table knowledge, they are shooting it just like any other shot and sending the cue down a safe path.
They are not using the english help make the ball.
It's table knowledge, they are shooting it just like any other shot and sending the cue down a safe path.
They are not using the english help make the ball.
I think there's another explanation besides throw as to why the pros often use outside english on the 9-ball, and it has to do with where the 9-ball is usually sitting at the end of the rack. Take this cuetable diagram:
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4IAtC3QPFr3RGVt3lPFr3lBBp4lbNY1lAkp3mGVt3mBJq3mObj3mbab1mSOM@
This 9-ball is where the 9-ball sits more often than not at the end of a rack run by a pro. Consider CB positions A and B, which are more or less the two places (besides straight in) that a pro would put themself to shoot this 9.
In the case of CB A, the outside english takes the angle of the CB up toward the end rail, preventing any scratch cross-side or cross-corner, even if nerves get the best of them and they hit the shot WAY too hard. In the case of B, the OE will take the CB around two rails and toward the long rail above the side pocket, which won't get them into trouble no matter how hard they hit it.
Good players say the way not to choke on the money ball is to play position on it like ny other shot. And if you're playing position, play a route that doesn't take you toward any pockets, as extra insurance against a poorly hit ball resulting in a scratch. I think that's why these two paths are the two most common you see a pro use after a cut on a 9-ball, and they both happen to involve outside english.
-Andrew
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4IAtC3QPFr3RGVt3lPFr3lBBp4lbNY1lAkp3mGVt3mBJq3mObj3mbab1mSOM@
This 9-ball is where the 9-ball sits more often than not at the end of a rack run by a pro. Consider CB positions A and B, which are more or less the two places (besides straight in) that a pro would put themself to shoot this 9.
In the case of CB A, the outside english takes the angle of the CB up toward the end rail, preventing any scratch cross-side or cross-corner, even if nerves get the best of them and they hit the shot WAY too hard. In the case of B, the OE will take the CB around two rails and toward the long rail above the side pocket, which won't get them into trouble no matter how hard they hit it.
Good players say the way not to choke on the money ball is to play position on it like ny other shot. And if you're playing position, play a route that doesn't take you toward any pockets, as extra insurance against a poorly hit ball resulting in a scratch. I think that's why these two paths are the two most common you see a pro use after a cut on a 9-ball, and they both happen to involve outside english.
-Andrew
Good on you RumsfeldTheOne said:As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know.
...now go back to throwing rocks at your cat 
Many good players will use outside English on angled shots for the sole purpose of pocketing the ball. I've heard Buddy Hall call it "helping English". I've seen Earl set up a shot with an angle and then say, "now you'd naturally hit this ball with outside English". I don't think anyone would question these guy's ball pocketing abilities. I have an older accu-stats tape where Buddy is one of the commentators for a match between Efren and Nick Varner. Again Buddy brings up "helping English" and goes on to say that Efren is the only one he's seen that doesn't use some sort of "helping English". So, yeah, I guess it's safe to say that many players, of all levels, use English to aid in pocketing balls and not for the sole purpose of playing position.
In 9 ball you are required to move the CB large distances. You always want a angle and prefer to have the CB at the center of the table. To do this outside english is used to get the CB to move without much force. When shooting at the money ball you might still use outside to keep the consistancy and to still control the CB
A instructor told me to always play position on the money ball. This does 2 things. Avoids a scratch and helps you make the ball.
A instructor told me to always play position on the money ball. This does 2 things. Avoids a scratch and helps you make the ball.