Overheard from two money players:

cuetec...<<First you said you would take Allison against any male player in an alternate breaks format>>
Please point out that post of mine and I will gladly apologize for saying that you have no clue what you are talking about.

<<and now you wouldn't even take Allison against these guys getting the 6 out???>>

And please accept my condolences for your apparant dyslexia. What I said was that I like AF against ALL those players I named with the six out.

And my counter offer stands as well.
Jim
 
Jay...<<I didn't say that. Maybe you need to read my post again and not read into it something that is not there.>>

That was a direct quote from your post so I don't need to read it again.

So, let me ask you again. Do you have any direct knowledge that the WPBA refused to allow AF to compete in the challenge match against MS? (I have mistakenly called it the King of the Hill. Actually, and quite ridiculously, it was called the World 8 Ball Championship.)
Regards,
Jim
 
I came into this a bit late, I'll give my opinion anyway. I think Allison is a great player, can she beat the top male pros consistently, no.

Some of this is has been said elsewhere. Anyway, you use the IPT 8ball tournmament as an example. I think that's a rather small sample size to begin with. If you can find them, you'd be better using major tourneys throughout an entire year. So Allison beats approximately 50 percent of her opponents in the IPT. How many of these are top tier professionals, and how many are 2nd and 3rd tier players? Furthermore, how many of her wins are in games other than 8ball? In longer versus short races?

I think you need to ask yourself honestly, can she win against top players, yes. Can she do it consistenly; winning the majority of her games against guys like Efren, Archer, Deuel? I would say no. Can she do it in 9ball or other games? I'd again, say no.

I think if she did win more often against those types of players, you would see her in the Joss tournments, or something else like it. She seems to stick mostly to the WPBA, which is smart on her part. It's where the money is. She's still an amazing player. Definately enjoyable to watch.
 
av84fun said:
Jay...<<I didn't say that. Maybe you need to read my post again and not read into it something that is not there.>>

That was a direct quote from your post so I don't need to read it again.

So, let me ask you again. Do you have any direct knowledge that the WPBA refused to allow AF to compete in the challenge match against MS? (I have mistakenly called it the King of the Hill. Actually, and quite ridiculously, it was called the World 8 Ball Championship.)
Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

I made no mention of the WPBA in my post or them forbidding anyone to do anything. I have no knowledge of any of this. So please do not put words in my mouth. This is a topic you brought up, not me.
 
jay helfert said:
I made no mention of the WPBA in my post or them forbidding anyone to do anything. I have no knowledge of any of this. So please do not put words in my mouth. This is a topic you brought up, not me.
Click to expand...

Right Jay...NY made mention of the WPBA issue to which you replied "Correct". If you didn't mean "correct" with respect to NY's entire statement, then fine. Sorry to misinterpret you. But again, I didn't put words in your mouth. I simply copy/pasted your comment.

Genuinely sorry for any confusion.
Regards,
Jim
 
Hi Mathew. I assume you are responding to me. Let me catch you up.

<<I think Allison is a great player, can she beat the top male pros consistently, no.>>

I didn't say she could...consistently. I specifically referred to the NON top players and then even listed several by name.

<<Anyway, you use the IPT 8ball tournmament as an example. I think that's a rather small sample size to begin with. If you can find them, you'd be better using major tourneys throughout an entire year.>>

Right but there AREN'T any other tours she plays on as you pointed out so the ONLY evidence is the IPT. We have to use what evidence there is. While I agree that such a small sample size doesn't PROVE anything...it certainly doesn't prove the thesis that she can't beat ANY of say...the top FIFTY IPT players as one poster suggested.

<<Can she do it consistenly; winning the majority of her games against guys like Efren, Archer, Deuel? I would say no.>>
That would be correct but again, I never suggested she could.

<<Can she do it in 9ball or other games? I'd again, say no.>>

But she would stand a vastly greater chance in 9 Ball since she is essentially brand new to the game.

<<I think if she did win more often against those types of players, you would see her in the Joss tournments, or something else like it. She seems to stick mostly to the WPBA, which is smart on her part. >>

Right. Agreed.

Regards,
Jim
 
Mathew...<<You seriously wanna back her in a money game? I think she'd lose.>>

To WHOM??? Who would she lose to do you think? We've already agreed that she would not consistently beat CHAMPION male players. But how far down the list of the top 100 money winners over, say, the past 3 years on all the male pro tours/events do we have to go before you think she has a chance to win 51% her matches??

All of this is admittedly speculation because I don't think she ever has or ever will engage in any gambling...knowingly...but I am just AMAZED that there is so much TESTOSTERONE flowing that so many guys are blinded to not only her AWESOME skill but her often DEVASTATING "mental game."

And surprised even more that most of them hold those opinions having NEVER SEEN her play a man in real "combat conditions" EXCEPT on the IPT where she WON half her matches against men!!!!!!!! But to hear some guys here talk, those weren't REAL men. So they qualified for the IPT under gruelling conditions..they;re still chumps rights? TOO funny. Most of those guys are probably still a little upset that women have the vote!!! ROFLMFAO.......... (-:
 
I should have made my point a little more clearly. I think that consistency is the key. Anyone can be beaten in a short race once. That doesn't mean you can do it over a long period of time. Or even in a longer race.

I don't think she can beat top pros consistently. Is she able to beat 2nd and 3rd tier pros over a substantial amount of time? We don't exactly have the evidence to prove or disprove anything; but if I had to hedge my bets, I'd say no. Again I think there's a reason why she sticks to the WPBA, and doesn't venture into the Joss tournaments, or something similiar.

You wanna put her in a money game? That's a bad bet in my opinion. There are alot of guys who would love that game. Just look at the game between her and Cliff. I believe he gave her the six and she lost. Honestly? I think you'd have to go down to around 150. It's tough to give names, because it can be subjective. Let me think about it a bit.

Again, she's a great player and definately funt to watch. On a side note. It's been an interesting conversation. I've enjoyed the debate.
 
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av84fun said:
cuetec...<<First you said you would take Allison against any male player in an alternate breaks format>>
Please point out that post of mine and I will gladly apologize for saying that you have no clue what you are talking about.

<<and now you wouldn't even take Allison against these guys getting the 6 out???>>

And please accept my condolences for your apparant dyslexia. What I said was that I like AF against ALL those players I named with the six out.

And my counter offer stands as well.
Jim
Click to expand...

What counter offer? It's hard for me to read a guy's posts if he doesn't know how to click on a button that says QUOTE. That way I know if your post is directed towards me, and I don't have to go searching thru your posts to find if you responded or not.

Anyways, again- if you are serious about staking a female player, ANY female player can get either the 6-out or the 6,7, and the last 2 from Alcano, Orcullo, and most likely Corteza, and it would be for a decent sum. If you can find any female player to take this offer, you can get plenty of action.
 
av84fun said:
Mathew...<<You seriously wanna back her in a money game? I think she'd lose.>>

To WHOM??? Who would she lose to do you think? We've already agreed that she would not consistently beat CHAMPION male players. But how far down the list of the top 100 money winners over, say, the past 3 years on all the male pro tours/events do we have to go before you think she has a chance to win 51% her matches??

All of this is admittedly speculation because I don't think she ever has or ever will engage in any gambling...knowingly...but I am just AMAZED that there is so much TESTOSTERONE flowing that so many guys are blinded to not only her AWESOME skill but her often DEVASTATING "mental game."

And surprised even more that most of them hold those opinions having NEVER SEEN her play a man in real "combat conditions" EXCEPT on the IPT where she WON half her matches against men!!!!!!!! But to hear some guys here talk, those weren't REAL men. So they qualified for the IPT under gruelling conditions..they;re still chumps rights? TOO funny. Most of those guys are probably still a little upset that women have the vote!!! ROFLMFAO.......... (-:
Click to expand...

What in the hell are you talking about? I've seen Allison play alot of timses, and nearly half the times she played real bad. She couldn't run 3 balls to save her life. She has OFF days, and she has ALOT MORE than you think. She isn't some machine like you are making her out to be.

And since I think you are relatively inexperienced at knowing what top pool is like, Allison plays great when she's on, and she's playing on big pockets. Snooker background or not, she flat out misses alot more balls than any average middle-tier pro does. When she catches a gear, yes she plays great, but she doesn't have a gear high enough to consistently hang with your average male pro. Her competition isn't strong enough on the WPBA to even get her motivated enough.

The problem with you is that you are so outspoken about Allison, saying how you will bet thousands on her against a man, but then you say something like "email me if a match like this ever happens". That basically tells me that you are full of shit. I guarantee you that if one of these matches were to happen, you probably would go into hiding.

I'm flat out telling you, that Allison can get HUGE weight for ALOT of money against Alcano, Orcullo, and Corteza. This can be arranged, no BS. All you need to do is get Allison to come play. Do you even know her? It seems like you are just talking out of your ass alot.

And to respond to this, look at the bottom right of this message. There is a button that says QUOTE, right next to EDIT. Click on it, and everything I have written will appear above your text in your reply. It's not very hard. Just click quote, that's all you gotta do. Maybe once you get this down we can move onto other things, like not being an ass, but for now, practice clicking on the quote button.
 
In case it's of any relevance to your discussions here are the people she won and lost to in The NA Open and the World Open:-

She defeated.....

......Abernethy/Lohtander/Klasovic/Mathews/Garrahan/Di Toro/Melling/Jones(Samuel)/Davenport

She lost to.....

......Boyes/Abood/Putnik/Barger/Beckley/Beaufils/Hsia/Petroni/Reyes


Interesting debate:)
 
av84fun said:
NYC..."are you sure you are saying that sigel ducked allison? And you know that how?>>

And you know differently how?

So it was NOT ok for her to have played an IPT event against MS but it IS ok for her to play on the entire rest of the IPT tour?? Why...exactly...do you think that is?

<<BTW, i am quite sure that EVERY male, ranked top 50 in the ipt, would be happy to play alison straight up, race to 100, AND alternating breaks. I'd be willing to stuff 6 figures into the lights. YOU?>>

I am talking about 9 Ball not 8 Ball so I don't know why you used the IPT rankings. And by "six figures" do you mean 100 grand? That's what 6 fugures usually means.

But you are talking about guys like Ernesto, Varner, Parica and Feijen...who Allison BEAT in a game she hadly plays...winner breaks. Lucky for you you didn't stuff "6 figures" in the lights for THAT one!!

As I have said, I don't believe that Allison would involve herself with gambling in any way but I'll tell ya what. If there is EVER a match involving her and the kind of male players you are talking about, I'll show up with 5 grand anywhere in the continental U.S.

Here's my e-mail address so you can get in touch with me if you hear it is going to happen.
av84fun@aol.com

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

Tell ya what....get her to come to Atlanta and she can play a non touring pro dead even and you and her can bet whatever amount makes you both feel warm and fuzzy. 9ball alternate breaks!

Southpaw
 
There is a reason she doesnt play alot of events with the male players. She wouldnt be +EV (expected value) to win. In woman only events she is always +EV.

Take her counterpart in the WPBA Karen Corr. Head to head the are damn near equal? Yes or no? Karen does play in alot of male events, and has beat some of top regional players and some touring pros. But she is not the favorite nor expected to win in these events.

Allison is a strong player, but she would not hold up against the likes of the players that have been mentioned. These players have some key factors that Allison doesnt have at their level: Big Break and Kicking abilities.

If she played in different areas local Open Events, I dont think she would be expected to win or necessarily finish top 3 week in and week out. I dont think she would in Detroit at Hall of Fame on Thursdays.

Alice Rim, if your reading, care to chime in?
 
Southpaw said:
Tell ya what....get her to come to Atlanta and she can play a non touring pro dead even and you and her can bet whatever amount makes you both feel warm and fuzzy. 9ball alternate breaks!

Southpaw
Click to expand...

I'd also like to sidebet on the non-touring pro.
 
av84fun,

Here goes, this is very complicated, so I;ll try to be as clear as I can be, and you try to understand the best you can. This all happened last year, so I'm trying to be as accurate as my memeory serves.

When the IPT was receiveing it's original applications, The wpba neglected to tell it's players about the tour. Historically, women players could NOT play in non sanctioned wpba events. (all regional events too. Karen corr always gets permission to play on the joss events, as an example.)

BUt the wpba SCTEWED up and told their favorites about the ipt, and those are the few that did send in their applications. I am friends with Jeanette and Jennife baretta. They were kept in the dark by the wpba. Thats the only reason they never sent theirapplications in.

Before this all started, Allison ASKED the ipt for permission, and they told her that the ipt didn't pay a sanctioning fee, and that she couldn't play. They then asked LLJ. She decided to renounce her association with the wpba, and take KT's money.

Since then, the nepotistic dealings of the wpba has landed them in SERIOUS hot water with the players. By giving the HEADS up to some women, and not alerting the others that they could, after the initial no to allison, particiapte, has caused some legal problems.

The control that the wpba once had ove the women, with regarding permissioin to play in other events, has since EVAPORATED. Women players started threatining the wpba with law suits if they were prohibited from participating in ANY event of their choosing.

The wpba is losingALL of thier sanctioning fees now, because the women are going were ever they want, with no regard for the wpba. That is why Jennifer barreta went to play in korea, without the wpba's permission. She is on record as saying, since not being allowed to participate in theipt, that she will now go wherever she wants, and if the wpba trys to stop her, she will SUE.

Out of my own pocket, i sent jennifer to orlando, and tried to get kt to give her one of the vacated spots in the origianl 150, as some playes never showed up. We tried to plead our case, but the ipt didn't understand then, that the wpba was really "allowing" some women to play, and others could not. After they heard from janette's management (octagon), they were finnally clued in on the facts.

Finally, you say that this story doesn't jive with NY's version. Who is NY? If it is me, I have never said anything but the above stated facts.
And yes, six figures is atleast 100k. I wouldnt get out of bed for 5 grand, for anything.

But I wasn't clear in my proposition. Allison should play ALL of the top ranked 50 male players. race to 100. !00k each. Youd need to post 5 mil. I can. Bet youd be down atleast 4.6 at the end.

rg
 
it just dawned on me av84fun, you were basing your entire story of mike ducking allison on HERESAY? Basing it on what is "out there," and can't even admit when you are wrong.

I have first hand info, I was involved in trying to right this wrong, and you continue to blow smoke up everyones asses, about FACT FACT FACT, when you don't have the slightest clue what the facts are.

Heres a hint, never stake your reputation on hersay.

RG
 
<<And yes, six figures is atleast 100k. I wouldnt get out of bed for 5 grand, for anything.>>

Oh well then. You are a BIG DOG and us small fry tremble in your presence.

<<But I wasn't clear in my proposition. Allison should play ALL of the top ranked 50 male players. race to 100. !00k each. Youd need to post 5 mil. I can. Bet youd be down atleast 4.6 at the end.>>

Can we get all that money over the light??? Ya think?

And by the way, I don't know how you got so rich but certainly it was not based on your reading skills. I never suggested she should play "all the top ranked 50 male players."
 
Hey rossaroni...where are those male/female 9 Ball Break & Run stats you said you found. Did I miss your post?
Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun, no, you never suggested she play ALL the top male pros, that was MY proposition. I read just fine.

I believe in the june and july issues of billiards digest, there was an article about me and some more info in the other. Might be insightful, as you seem to be curious. also, on the seybert's site, they interviewed me about sponsoring the world straight pool championships. that also contained some personal info.

Most people in the billiards industry who know me, know my story.


Ps, you never answered my post with regards to sigel and allison. You really should show some contrition, being wrong and all.
rg
 
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