Overheard from two money players:

I have to admit that quote certainly borders on a statement of fact although many people suggest that certain things are "well known" when they are not basing their statement on FACT per se. For example, a Democrat might say that it is "well known" that a Democrat would make a better President than a Republian.

It would have been better for me to have stated that it is "widely believed" that MS ducked...because it is...whether it is true that he did or did not.

However, I have never seen any official report or one from any member of the WPBA that would suggest that NYC Dude's VERSION of the story is correct. Have you??

Can any of you WPBA pros chime in here? If Dude's VERSION of the story is correct, I will be happy to apologize to MS for posting an incorrect VERSION of the story.
 
allie said:
Perk, after scanning through this entire thread, all I can say is that yes, at this point in time, the men pros outplay the women pros. I think even in the short time I've been around the pool scene, I've noticed the gap slowly closing however.

Do I think that Allison and Karen can compete with men at open events? Absolutely. Are they considered the favorites to win them? No. Do I think they are favored to cash in those events? Yes.

As far as the weekly Hall of Fame tournaments, I do believe that they would be considered the favorites to finish in the top three regularly. Now, I do want to recognize that they are double elimination, races to 5 and 4 events. I think if the races were longer, I think they're chances are better. A few years ago, when I was playing in them every week, I managed to cash seven weeks in a row in that tournament, including a 2nd place, 2 3rds, and one fourth place finish (I don't really know how that happened!). And I consider Karen and Allison's games WAY above mine. So that's why I say that...

Alice Rim
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Allie,
Well said!! All the supposed "experts" posting here should take your message to heart.

Give any of the top 10 woman players a "designated breaker" and I think they will be tough to beat for anyone on the planet. Even without the designated breaker they STILL have a reasonable chance to beat anyone on the planet.
 
tedkaufman said:
Jim, I'm a huge Allison Fisher fan. Her ability to control the cueball, make difficult shots under pressure, and her pattern play are exemplary. She also has great pool vision; she's imaginative and remarkably precise.

But if you value your money, do not make the bet you offered.

When you argue that Allison won 50% of the matches she played in the IPT, playing a game she's not familiar with, you fail to realize a few things. One, she had just as much exposure to competative 8 ball as nearly all the other guys. And 8 ball suits her skills very well because of the demand for precise cueball control. She doesn't break as hard as, say, Manalo, but she probably hits them as hard as Efren. So consider, this: She only managed to win 50% of her matches in the first two rounds. The first two rounds always included some players who really had no business being there. After the first two rounds, the field was filtered down to roughly the top 100. I assure you she would not have a 50% winning percentage against that field. Of course we don't know because she never lasted till the 3rd round. Figure it out.

If you want a nice local gambling match, put your money on Allison and I'll get an unranked IPT player named Tony Watson to play her. You can set the monetary figure. But I can assure you it can get as rich as you can stand.
Click to expand...

Tony and Allison?? Button your top button, your heart is showing.
 
Perk said:
Can we pick amatuers? There are a few of them that are not on your Top 12 list that would come with some cash ready to play.
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There are several who never play pro events who would swim a river of S... to play her.
 
Cuetechasaurus....<<Roger Griffis gave Allison Fisher the 7-out for a few thousand back in either '01 or '02, and he tortured her. Alot of people know about this.>>

And supposing, for sake of argument that is true what EXACTLY does that prove? Do you think the loser in ONE SESSION is PROVEN to be inferior to the winner? Do you know ANYTHING about pool???????
 
av84fun said:
Cuetechasaurus....<<Roger Griffis gave Allison Fisher the 7-out for a few thousand back in either '01 or '02, and he tortured her. Alot of people know about this.>>

And supposing, for sake of argument that is true what EXACTLY does that prove? Do you think the loser in ONE SESSION is PROVEN to be inferior to the winner? Do you know ANYTHING about pool???????
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Don't mean to argue with you, but isn't this exactly what you were doing with Allison playing Neils? You sure made it seem like Allison was favored against Neils, because she beat him in one IPT tournament.
 
Williebetmore...<<Even without the designated breaker they STILL have a reasonable chance to beat anyone on the planet.>>

You referred to the top 10 women players and how right you are. But Allision...specifically is in a league of her own as her unprecedented championship statistics show, so whatever might be true for the top 10 is WAY true regarding Allison.

Due to circumstances that we all know about, it will never be known who was the greatest female player of all time...Allision or Jean Balukus but in the Record Book, there is no contest but so many of my fellow men either through sheer ignorance or male chauvinism or both simply won't recognize that Allision is so far superior to the leading female pros of the current era that ranking her as "just another woman player" as absurd and I have only engaged to the extent I have in this thread because not recognizing AF's off the charts skills is an insult that should not go unchallenged.

I've taken a lot of heat in this thread for recognizing the obvious but that's OK. Sometimes, being right is lonely! (-:
 
rossaroni...<<You sure made it seem like Allison was favored against Neils, because she beat him in one IPT tournament.>>

I can't be held responsible for what my comments might have "seemed" to you but that was not my point AT ALL. My POINT...just to help you along in your quest for understanding...is that AF clearly CAN and cleary HAS beaten talented, respected male pros and that betting on her to do so would not be the impossible dream that a few lug heads in this thread make it out to be.

As far as your other insipid remark about my needing a video to accept that AF may have lost at match to Roger on some given night some several years ago...no, I don't need a video or any signed statements.

But again, so what if she did and so what if she didn't? Does either outcome PROVE anything to you?

Tell ya what though. Why don't you stop embarrassing yourself and just go buy some videos of a few dozen of here championship wins and LEARN something. You will learn that in the vast majority of those matches...she just DIDN'T miss! Her routes were PERFECT and her cue ball speed control was PERFECT and her safety play was awesome.

If you're such a hot-to-trot 9 Ball expert, why don't you explain to all of us lesser souls how any competitor can beat a player...man, woman...adult or child WHO DOESN'T MISS and/or leaves you safe if he/she does. How exactly does THAT work rossaroni???????????
 
av84fun said:
rossaroni...<<You sure made it seem like Allison was favored against Neils, because she beat him in one IPT tournament.>>

I can't be held responsible for what my comments might have "seemed" to you but that was not my point AT ALL. My POINT...just to help you along in your quest for understanding...is that AF clearly CAN and cleary HAS beaten talented, respected male pros and that betting on her to do so would not be the impossible dream that a few lug heads in this thread make it out to be.

As far as your other insipid remark about my needing a video to accept that AF may have lost at match to Roger on some given night some several years ago...no, I don't need a video or any signed statements.

But again, so what if she did and so what if she didn't? Does either outcome PROVE anything to you?

Tell ya what though. Why don't you stop embarrassing yourself and just go buy some videos of a few dozen of here championship wins and LEARN something. You will learn that in the vast majority of those matches...she just DIDN'T miss! Her routes were PERFECT and her cue ball speed control was PERFECT and her safety play was awesome.

If you're such a hot-to-trot 9 Ball expert, why don't you explain to all of us lesser souls how any competitor can beat a player...man, woman...adult or child WHO DOESN'T MISS and/or leaves you safe if he/she does. How exactly does THAT work rossaroni???????????
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I never claimed to be a hot-to-trot 9 ball expert. I never really thought I disrespected you in any way. I did disagree that Allsion could beat all non top 12 men on a consistant basis(in a long race). You want to talk bad about me and call me names that is OK. I never thought I was a "lug head", but I guess you feel that way about anyone who disagrees with you. I never threatened you with a challenge match. I just stated my opinion and you stated yours. I have been to many tournaments and have seen Allison, Karen, and all the rest of the women play. I have also seen most of the men play. I have even been to some 3- cushion tournaments. This does not make me an expert, but I have, indeed, seen some of her championship wins in person. Here is one of my past post. I don't think I embarrassed myself in any way. I just don't think you will ever change your mind, even if you were proven wrong.

"I don't think anyone ever said she was not a great player. I think the debate is wheather she can beat most of the professional men on a consistant basis. Better yet, does she play as good as the men. Everyone knows that even though you win a match or even a tournament, does not mean you are the best player. They may have played the best that match or tournament, but we are talking overall better players. I would not be surprised if Allison did real good in an IPT event, but does one match or tournament make a great case for the debate. Of course she can and will beat some of the top men from time to time, but in a long race, I think they will prevail MOST of the time. The debate started when someone mentioned that they would bet on Allison against any male not in the top 12-alternate breaks." quote by Rossaroni aka Lug Head
 
allison?

I don't want to get into the middle of an argument, if this is what this is, but I want to offer my opinion of Allison's abilities......Yes, I have seen her play practically perfect 9-ball in many women's tournament matches.....I have seen many shortstops play nearly perfect too.....but one factor has to be considered....we know that people can physically execute the shots when the mind is confident...however, when a really good player goes up against somebody more formidable than the usual competition, there is a different pressure which might cause the good player to shoot differently...and if you guys are pool players, you should know what I mean......
 
wahcheck said:
I don't want to get into the middle of an argument, if this is what this is, but I want to offer my opinion of Allison's abilities......Yes, I have seen her play practically perfect 9-ball in many women's tournament matches.....I have seen many shortstops play nearly perfect too.....but one factor has to be considered....we know that people can physically execute the shots when the mind is confident...however, when a really good player goes up against somebody more formidable than the usual competition, there is a different pressure which might cause the good player to shoot differently...and if you guys are pool players, you should know what I mean......
Click to expand...

I was just thinking the same thing. There is a whole different pressure playing someone you are heavily favored to beat and playing someone that is going to be firing back. When Alison and Karen are playing with the women they are heavily favored against a majority of their opponents, however playing top men they would be under a lot more pressure and would be punished a lot more severely for any error. I am very impressed with Alison and Karen when they play against top men. I think if you eliminated the top 30 men, Alison and Karen would be able to hold their own against the next 100 and if Matchsports was laying odds the ladies may not be the favorites but they wouldn't have very big odds against them winning any of the matches.

The biggest problem I have when I go up against pro's who I think are better than me is that my game drops, when I go up against pro's who are much better than me my game drops even more. The only way I have found to overcome this problem to date is to get better. If Alison and Karen can find some ways to get a ball better they will be formidable opponents even for the best male players. In my opinion the woman most likely to challenge the top men in the not too distant future might be Jasmin Ouschan, she seems to be still improving at a pretty good pace and she can already play pretty strong against most men and she doesn't seem intimidated by them.
 
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av84fun said:
cuetechasaurus...<<I guarantee you that if one of these matches were to happen, you probably would go into hiding.>>

You know what? You need to shut your pie hole before you dig your stupid hole any deeper. You are such a dumb shit that you suggest that you can GUARANTEE something about someone you don't even know.

As for quoting...why don't you quote my ass?
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I would like to quote your ass, but there is no button that will let me quote your face.

Anyways, you are a scared little punk. You talk out of your ass. You are full of shit, and you don't know what great pool is if it slapped you in the face. I'm offering you a chance to get any female player to play the 3 Filipinos I mentioned, and they can get HUGE weight for ALOT of money. I can easily get in contact with the Filipinos and arrange the match. You just have to do your part by finding a female pro. Find Allison, stake her, or tell her to get a backer, or whatever. But if you want this match to happen, you have to do your part, because I don't know how to get in contact with Allison or another female pro around her level.

You think she plays so good, you got a chance to make some money here. So put up, or shut the **** up, once and for all, chickenshit.
 
Quick Like A Bunny !

cuetechasaurus said:
I would like to quote your ass, but there is no button that will let me quote your face.

Anyways, you are a scared little punk. You talk out of your ass. You are full of shit, and you don't know what great pool is if it slapped you in the face. I'm offering you a chance to get any female player to play the 3 Filipinos I mentioned, and they can get HUGE weight for ALOT of money. I can easily get in contact with the Filipinos and arrange the match. You just have to do your part by finding a female pro. Find Allison, stake her, or tell her to get a backer, or whatever. But if you want this match to happen, you have to do your part, because I don't know how to get in contact with Allison or another female pro around her level.

You think she plays so good, you got a chance to make some money here. So put up, or shut the **** up, once and for all, chickenshit.
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rut-row, I think I hear the footsteps of Mr. Warning coming down the hallway...... Can you say Edit or Delete ?
Doug
( I knew that you could )
 
rossaroni...<<I never really thought I disrespected you in any way.>> That may be but then in must be true that you have no idea what disrespect is.

<<but I guess you feel that way about anyone who disagrees with you. >>

Again, I can't be held responsible for what you "guess." I have NEVER suggested that "anyone" who disagrees with me is a lunk head...just those who have suggested that AF would be robbed by virtually any male pro player.

<<I just don't think you will ever change your mind, even if you were proven wrong. >>

You seem to have a LOT of unsupportable opinions...but you are certainly entitled to them.
Jim
 
Wahcheck...<<we know that people can physically execute the shots when the mind is confident...however, when a really good player goes up against somebody more formidable than the usual competition, there is a different pressure which might cause the good player to shoot differently>>

EXCELLENT point. But the it is clear that one of AF's KEY STRENGTHS is her mental toughness. She has an overwhelming will to win and typically, she plays BEST when under the MOST PRESSURE.
Regards,
Jim
 
Cuebrainlessasuarus...<<because I don't know how to get in contact with Allison or another female pro around her level. >>

What great news for those players!!!!!!!!!

And just curious. What do all those red boxes under your user name mean?
 
Smorgass Bored said:
rut-row, I think I hear the footsteps of Mr. Warning coming down the hallway...... Can you say Edit or Delete ?
Doug
( I knew that you could )
Click to expand...

These family get-togethers are so stressfull!!
 
av84fun said:
rossaroni...<<I never really thought I disrespected you in any way.>> That may be but then in must be true that you have no idea what disrespect is.

<<but I guess you feel that way about anyone who disagrees with you. >>

Again, I can't be held responsible for what you "guess." I have NEVER suggested that "anyone" who disagrees with me is a lunk head...just those who have suggested that AF would be robbed by virtually any male pro player.

<<I just don't think you will ever change your mind, even if you were proven wrong. >>

You seem to have a LOT of unsupportable opinions...but you are certainly entitled to them.
Jim
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Are all of your opinions are based on facts? Its funny that you ask everyone about the MS-LJJ match in the main forum, after you got into it with New York and Jay. You stated what you KNEW, and then ask for the real story. Plus, anytime someone has mentioned a match that took place, you either don't respond or you blow it off, and say it may have happened. Everyone of your "facts" are based on one match and you, yourself, said anyone can win one match and one match does not support either side. Once again, I will say that Allison plays great, but I just don't think she is a favorite against all the men out of the top 12.
 
I can run out with ball in hand after the break a little over 50% of the time and I have a lousy break. Plus, I'm not even a highly rated player in Queens, NY let alone nationally.

I did some studies of Accu Stats tapes and local tournaments.

The very elite pros were just a tad under 70% when they had ball in hand after the break (or a good shot on the 1 ball with an appropriate angle for the 2.

Weaker name pros were in the 60%+ range.

In the local tri-state or similar tournaments the average was around 50%, but the better players were naturally dragged down by some of the weaker ones.
 
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