Parallel, Front Hand or Back Hand English

[tucson9ball]

Fhe Bhe %^$?

Forgive me, I'm new to pool. What in the hell is "back hand" english? Who makes this shit up?

I agree with Jay. I have to play tonight on my league and after reading this thread I started thinking that maybe i learned to play pool on some other planet. I may never make another ball in the pocket again. I never heard of this crap.:yikes:

 

[Flex]

I agree with Jay. I have to play tonight on my league and after reading this thread I started thinking that maybe i learned to play pool on some other planet. I may never make another ball in the pocket again. I never heard of this crap.:yikes:

Just because you've never heard or (or seen) it doesn't me it doesn't exist or that it is no good.

For many shots it's so simple to use and get the feel for it's ridiculous.

For other shots, I prefer "parallel" english. It'll be worth your while to explore this a bit.

Flex

 

[3andstop]

Forgive me, I'm new to pool. What in the hell is "back hand" english? Who makes this shit up?

Hey Jay, LMAO. I thought it, but you said it! :thumbup:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

pj, I thought you were in on one of these many conversations about english compensation.

Parallel is when you line up the shot to make it with perfect dead center hit on the cueball.... then say you want to hit at 3o'clock english.... so you move the front of your stick 1 tip to the right... and the back/butt of your stick the exact same amount.

So with the final product, your original aim line with a center hit, is parallel to your new line at 3o'clock.


Maybe that makes sense?

I understand what you're saying, but that method won't make balls go into pockets very often because it doesn't make any adjustment for squirt/swerve. That's why I always ask "parallel with what?" - "parallel english" doesn't work if it's parallel with the CB-to-ghostball line (as most people think it is).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

if you use BHE correctly the stick doesn't mater. i use a normal shaft and when using BHE the ball goes straight into the hole as it should. even on balls hit very hard. BHE changes the direction of aim so the "squirt" can bring it back on line again.

If you move your back hand the same way on different sticks, you're changing the direction of aim the same amount for different amounts of squirt. How can that work?

pj
chgo

 

[skins]

If you move your back hand the same way on different sticks, you're changing the direction of aim the same amount for different amounts of squirt. How can that work?

pj
chgo

the farther from center the tip makes contact the more squirt......

moving the back hand less = less deflection needed to bring the ball back to center
moving the back hand more = more deflection needed to bring the ball back to center

all this is accomplished because the aim actually changes when you "pivot" your back hand........the stick has little to nothing to do with it......

 

[Jal]

I understand what you're saying, but that method won't make balls go into pockets very often because it doesn't make any adjustment for squirt/swerve. That's why I always ask "parallel with what?" - "parallel english" doesn't work if it's parallel with the CB-to-ghostball line (as most people think it is).

pj
chgo

I've always thought the term "parallel english" meant simply not following the backhand english procedure of lining up at centerball and then pivoting. In other words, you get down on the shot with the cue already angled as needed. This can still be considered "parallel" if you allow that the stick is parallel with the adjusted centerball aim line (adjusted for squirt and swerve). If it doesn't mean that, then it means a way of applying english that is guaranteed to generate a lot of missed shots. I'd prefer to have it mean the former.

Jim

 

[Joe T]

if you use BHE correctly the stick doesn't mater. i use a normal shaft and when using BHE the ball goes straight into the hole as it should. even on balls hit very hard. BHE changes the direction of aim so the "squirt" can bring it back on line again. the results are the same when i do this with any other "engineered" shaft.......now if we're talking parallel english, the the engineered shafts do perform a tad better but using parallel english is a death sentence imo.......

Yeah I don't agree with ya here and I can put different cues on the laser and see big differences. With normal cue & BHE I can miss due to the squirt easily and with a Z shaft and total backhand english I have a tough time making it squirt back in enough to make the ball. That's why my preferred method is a little FHE & a little BHE.

I also think we might get mixed results based on bridge length. Why do you think a low squirt shaft would less deflection while using parallel english but not angled english?

 

[Joe T]

I was telling you all about this old book I had called Billiards Accuracy. Well, I dug it up and dusted it off now that I found out it was selling used for 90 bucks .. wow ... anyway, here is a picture explaining parallel aim.

Thanks for posting that, its books and instruction like that that I believe have been slowing our progress.

 

[3andstop]

Thanks for posting that, its books and instruction like that that I believe have been slowing our progress.

LOL, you're welcome, just don't shoot the messenger.:welcome:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

the farther from center the tip makes contact the more squirt......

moving the back hand less = less deflection needed to bring the ball back to center
moving the back hand more = more deflection needed to bring the ball back to center

all this is accomplished because the aim actually changes when you "pivot" your back hand........the stick has little to nothing to do with it......

Everything you say is correct - right up to the last phrase.

Sorry, but the stick has everything to do with it. This is very old ground that's been thoroughly explored and explained. I suggest you try reading some of Dr. Dave's articles in Billiards Digest.

pj
chgo

 

[skins]

Everything you say is correct - right up to the last phrase.

Sorry, but the stick has everything to do with it. This is very old ground that's been thoroughly explored and explained. I suggest you try reading some of Dr. Dave's articles in Billiards Digest.

pj
chgo

"thoroughly explored"....yea i've been one to do that. i was doing BHE in the seventies and was one of the first if not the first in my area to use this technique. i didn't learn it from anyone. sounds corny but it just came to me. that coupled with 30 years of play most of them at an A to A+ level, much interaction from very sporty players over this time, and testing on standard and engineered shafts have determined my knowledge.....i play well with it and i wish you the same with yours........

skins ------------- knows experience is the best teacher.......

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I think the best players in the world use BHE just about exclusively... ...

I just watched some of the best ball-spinners in the world. I don't think a single one of them uses BHE. They call came down into position with the necessary compensation already done. No pivoting. Straight through the ball, even with extreme side spin.

 

[Rod]

I just watched some of the best ball-spinners in the world. I don't think a single one of them uses BHE. They call came down into position with the necessary compensation already done. No pivoting. Straight through the ball, even with extreme side spin.

Well now, sanity does exist, that is, players outside of this pool forum.


Rod

 

[av84fun]

"thoroughly explored"....yea i've been one to do that. i was doing BHE in the seventies and was one of the first if not the first in my area to use this technique. i didn't learn it from anyone. sounds corny but it just came to me. that coupled with 30 years of play most of them at an A to A+ level, much interaction from very sporty players over this time, and testing on standard and engineered shafts have determined my knowledge.....i play well with it and i wish you the same with yours........

skins ------------- knows experience is the best teacher.......

Excellent post skins. Like you, I've never seen anyone win a pool game shooting with a slide rule. No disrespect to the engineer types and some of them have added very significantly to the body of PRACTICAL knowledge of the game. Jewett, Kahler, JAL and Dr. Dave come immediately to mind for lucid and beneficial contributions.

But all too many of them are engineers only in their own minds and still others bog down in so much minutia that I am suprised they can pocket a ball...and I'm sure that some can't.

The problem with the subject of the thread is that if you ask 5 "experts" about parallel, BHE and/or FHE, you will get six different answers as this thread demonstrates. Each is mired in myth, misunderstanding and mis-explanations.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Joe T]

I just watched some of the best ball-spinners in the world. I don't think a single one of them uses BHE. They call came down into position with the necessary compensation already done. No pivoting. Straight through the ball, even with extreme side spin.

I agree with you there Bob and when I teach I tell people that most all pros just fall into position with english applied (but their sticks are angled off not parallel) but then I go on to tell them that if they learn to go from center to side by pivoting that'll they'lll be able to speed up their learning process on how to apply side spin and what it should look like and later on if they want they can just start falling into also.

 

[av84fun]

I just watched some of the best ball-spinners in the world. I don't think a single one of them uses BHE. They call came down into position with the necessary compensation already done. No pivoting. Straight through the ball, even with extreme side spin.

Bob, those who use the Pro One aiming method eventually become adept at an "air pivot" that is virtually undetectable in many cases.

But I do disagree with my new cyber-pal Spidey in that IMHO BHE (at least my understanding of it) is not actually associated with Pro One or the other similar "center-to-edge" methods.

What the pivot does...IMHO...is to CORRECT what otherwise would be BHE and returns the stroking arm alignment to what I would consider to be essentially straight through the CB (viewed from the point of contact...not straight through the center of mass except on a dead center ball shot.)

But similar to my comments on parallel, bhe and fhe, until Stan Shuffett's Pro One evolution of the c-t-e method proliferates...as it is beginning to do at very high levels...then it to will remain the stuff of myth and misunderstanding.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Joe T]

"thoroughly explored"....yea i've been one to do that. i was doing BHE in the seventies and was one of the first if not the first in my area to use this technique. i didn't learn it from anyone. sounds corny but it just came to me. that coupled with 30 years of play most of them at an A to A+ level, much interaction from very sporty players over this time, and testing on standard and engineered shafts have determined my knowledge.....i play well with it and i wish you the same with yours........

skins ------------- knows experience is the best teacher.......

I'm with ya on the experience bit also and like you nobody taught me how to do this, as a matter a fact they tried to teach me to stay parallel but I simply pointed to some top players and said do you think he's parallel?

We're on the same side, I just think I like low squirt shafts and don't think you do, no biggy as long as we both get out.

 

[av84fun]

Forgive me, I'm new to pool. What in the hell is "back hand" english? Who makes this shit up?

TOO funny. But ya gotta love Efren who uses parallel, BHE, FHE and rope a dope all on the same shot!!!

(-:

Jim

 

[Colin Colenso]

I just watched some of the best ball-spinners in the world. I don't think a single one of them uses BHE. They call came down into position with the necessary compensation already done. No pivoting. Straight through the ball, even with extreme side spin.

It's little wonder that pros are adept at, and usually rely almost soley upon simply estimating how to align to any shot they want to make using english.

There really has been no other way to learn how to execute english for a wide range of shots. So they learn a huge range of shots by repetition and this gives them the intuitive feel to make, or get close to almost any shot they attempt with varying degrees of cut angle, speed and tip offset.

When I first learned about BHE a few years ago I thought it was some instant quick fix. But I soon learned that there were variables that affected the success on many shots quite significantly. These are:

1. The effective pivot point changes according to speed and distance travelled. (Swerve is the culprit).

2. The actual contact point required to make shots varies considerably with CB speed, cut angle and type and rate of spin on the CB.

So without knowing how much to adjust for all of these variables, BHE is only useful for a limited range of shots.

But now, having studied all these variables and having refined an adjustment system for the effective pivot point, and the change in required contact point, I can use BHE for all shots with pretty good accuracy.

Without such an adjustment system it is basically impossible to use BHE for all shots unless the player makes a lot of intuitive adjustments, in which case they might as well just use english the way players have had to in the past. A lot of trial and error.

Colin