Parallel, Front Hand or Back Hand English

[av84fun]

Bob, those who use the Pro One aiming method eventually become adept at an "air pivot" that is virtually undetectable in many cases.

But I do disagree with my new cyber-pal Spidey in that IMHO BHE (at least my understanding of it) is not actually associated with Pro One or the other similar "center-to-edge" methods.

What the pivot does...IMHO...is to CORRECT what otherwise would be BHE and returns the stroking arm alignment to what I would consider to be essentially straight through the CB (viewed from the point of contact...not straight through the center of mass except on a dead center ball shot.)

But similar to my comments on parallel, bhe and fhe, until Stan Shuffett's Pro One evolution of the c-t-e method proliferates...as it is beginning to do at very high levels...then it to will remain the stuff of myth and misunderstanding.

Regards,
Jim

I take the bolded part back. Sorry Spidey...I should know better than to differ with you.

In fact, when I apply english with the Pro One method there IS a little of what I'll call an "angular approach" to the CB which may or may not be BHE/FHE or some combination of the two. About that subject, I could care less. All I care about is if the shots go....and they do.

But the AMOUNT of angular approach is quite small (possibly because I avoid the use of more than 1 tip of english except in dire emergencies) and I doubt if it could be detected by anyone not right ON the shot line.

Regards,
Jim

 

[BRKNRUN]

Forgive me, I'm new to pool. What in the hell is "back hand" english? Who makes this shit up?

You old timers made this shit up....!!!

You just called it something else....I bet you have heard of the method and would know it instantly if someone referred to it in its origonal name...

I forget what I was told it was called, but I was in a conversation with a player that was around in your day and I mentioned the term BHE and he said...."What the hell is "BHE"???

As soon as I started to describe it he said...OH.....thats called the "something" system...or method or somehing...

Kind of like how you all used to refer to a copy machine as a Xerox...

 

[av84fun]

You old timers made this shit up....!!!
You just called it something else....I bet you have heard of the method and would know it instantly if someone referred to it in its origonal name...

I forget what I was told it was called, but I was in a conversation with a player that was around in your day and I mentioned the term BHE and he said...."What the hell is "BHE"???

As soon as I started to describe it he said...OH.....thats called the "something" system...or method or somehing...

Kind of like how you all used to refer to a copy machine as a Xerox...

HE WAS KIDDING!!!!

LOL

 

[Solartje]

It's little wonder that pros are adept at, and usually rely almost soley upon simply estimating how to align to any shot they want to make using english.

There really has been no other way to learn how to execute english for a wide range of shots. So they learn a huge range of shots by repetition and this gives them the intuitive feel to make, or get close to almost any shot they attempt with varying degrees of cut angle, speed and tip offset.

When I first learned about BHE a few years ago I thought it was some instant quick fix. But I soon learned that there were variables that affected the success on many shots quite significantly. These are:

1. The effective pivot point changes according to speed and distance travelled. (Swerve is the culprit).

2. The actual contact point required to make shots varies considerably with CB speed, cut angle and type and rate of spin on the CB.

So without knowing how much to adjust for all of these variables, BHE is only useful for a limited range of shots.

But now, having studied all these variables and having refined an adjustment system for the effective pivot point, and the change in required contact point, I can use BHE for all shots with pretty good accuracy.

Without such an adjustment system it is basically impossible to use BHE for all shots unless the player makes a lot of intuitive adjustments, in which case they might as well just use english the way players have had to in the past. A lot of trial and error.

Colin

just like colin, i'm a BHE user. It all started with his post about what is BHE. We've been pm'ing and emailing about it, and if you dont know exactly where the speed 2 pivotpoint on your cue is, its useless. You really need to take into account speed, swerve etc.

well colin, like I once told you, my shaft now has ring for each speed that i draw on my shaft. Before i bend down, i descide what speed i need, i put my bridgehand at that line and it works like a charm. For the last month i have been OVER using BHE. The lines on my shaft are ugly, but it works.

Took me much time to test my cue and find the right bridgelength for each speed, but now its easy. As long as my cue is as level as possible, i rarely miss due to english.

There are some drawbacks:

if there is a ball blocking your pivotpoint. (Hate when that happens ) = no BHE so i use memory to adjust my aim.

For speed 0-8 its very very acurate as there pivotpoint length differences are big. The harder you have to hit them, to closer the speedline are (closer to the ferule), wich give greather chance to errors. Same as judging the difference between 2.5km/h and 5km/h is alot easyer to judge then the difference between 30km/h and 32km/h.

when i use english i hardly use more then 1/2 tip of draw to keep the swerve as low as possible.

The advantage is:
if i aply some unwated english , it will always keep on hitting the 1 full in the face on the break or hit the contactpoint if id didnt had this english


in short: BHE made me a soft cbspinning centerballavoiding poolplayer instead of a hard potting centerball playing snookerplayer.

 

[DonFelix]

i didnt know about this bhe and fhe stuff before reading it here and personally i dont know exactly how i aim. i just go down and shot. *confused*

 

[cookie man]

I just watched some of the best ball-spinners in the world. I don't think a single one of them uses BHE. They call came down into position with the necessary compensation already done. No pivoting. Straight through the ball, even with extreme side spin.

Watch Bustamonte

 

[Patrick Johnson]

But now, having studied all these variables and having refined an adjustment system for the effective pivot point, and the change in required contact point, I can use BHE for all shots with pretty good accuracy.

Without such an adjustment system it is basically impossible to use BHE for all shots unless the player makes a lot of intuitive adjustments, in which case they might as well just use english the way players have had to in the past. A lot of trial and error.

I don't think BHE has to mechanically give you the final accurate aiming result in order to add value. Like lots of other systems, it can get you closer to the final aim so that you have less "guessing" to do, and that can be very valuable to many players. Like a low-squirt cue, an aiming system can help simply by narrowing the range of estimation.

We all do that to some degree or another, beginning with deciding whether we're going to aim at the right or left side of the object ball.

pj
chgo

 

[tjlmbklr]

Correction on my first post, it is actually stressed more in the video

Joe Tucker part 2 video

 

[tjlmbklr]

i didnt know about this bhe and fhe stuff before reading it here and personally i dont know exactly how i aim. i just go down and shot. *confused*

DonFelix I under stand your confusion. Think of learning BHE/FHE as learning any other system in pool. Like the Diamond or parallel shift for kicks or banks. You only use these systems until it becomes natural to your brain then you're just "seeing" the shot.

Well the BHE/FHE is the same thing except you are already using the english as you're aiming the shot as apposed to aiming center ball then moving your hands for the english you desire. I recommend watching the Joe tucker 3 part video on You tube I posted on this same thread. It'll really put it into perspective.

TJ

 

[dr_dave]

new BHE system to account for swerve and throw

Colin,

Are you willing to share a description and/or video demonstration of your system to account for squirt, swerve, and throw with BHE? It seems to me that it might be too complicated for most people; but if you can keep it simple, it might help lots of people.

Does your system account for all of the factors that affect swerve (cue elevation, shot speed, cloth/ball conditions, distance between the CB and OB, etc.), changes in throw due to all of the variables you mention, and changes in throw due to different ball conditions (e.g., beat up and dirty bar and pool hall balls vs. new, clean, polished tournament balls)?

I look forward to hearing more about your approach.

Thanks,
Dave

It's little wonder that pros are adept at, and usually rely almost soley upon simply estimating how to align to any shot they want to make using english.

There really has been no other way to learn how to execute english for a wide range of shots. So they learn a huge range of shots by repetition and this gives them the intuitive feel to make, or get close to almost any shot they attempt with varying degrees of cut angle, speed and tip offset.

When I first learned about BHE a few years ago I thought it was some instant quick fix. But I soon learned that there were variables that affected the success on many shots quite significantly. These are:

1. The effective pivot point changes according to speed and distance travelled. (Swerve is the culprit).

2. The actual contact point required to make shots varies considerably with CB speed, cut angle and type and rate of spin on the CB.

So without knowing how much to adjust for all of these variables, BHE is only useful for a limited range of shots.

But now, having studied all these variables and having refined an adjustment system for the effective pivot point, and the change in required contact point, I can use BHE for all shots with pretty good accuracy.

Without such an adjustment system it is basically impossible to use BHE for all shots unless the player makes a lot of intuitive adjustments, in which case they might as well just use english the way players have had to in the past. A lot of trial and error.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

I don't think BHE has to mechanically give you the final accurate aiming result in order to add value. Like lots of other systems, it can get you closer to the final aim so that you have less "guessing" to do, and that can be very valuable to many players. Like a low-squirt cue, an aiming system can help simply by narrowing the range of estimation.

We all do that to some degree or another, beginning with deciding whether we're going to aim at the right or left side of the object ball.

pj
chgo

Patrick,
As I said in my post, BHE has uses, but they are limited in range without additional knowledge.

You can't even be sure of hitting the contact point you're aligned to if you don't know what the effective pivot point is for those particular shots.

And when you are putting various amounts of spin and english on he CB, the OB can throw very differently on some shots.
So just using BHE with one set pivot point is very limiting and not knowing the throw variables is also very limiting.

No one has published this information in detail in an instantly usable form, no one knows it off the top of their heads. So why not consider such knowledge as something that is potentially valuable to the development of the execution of BHE?

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,

Are you willing to share a description and/or video demonstration of your system to account for squirt, swerve, and throw with BHE? It seems to me that it might be too complicated for most people; but if you can keep it simple, it might help lots of people.

Does your system account for all of the factors that affect swerve (cue elevation, shot speed, cloth/ball conditions, distance between the CB and OB, etc.), and changes in throw due to all of the variables you mention, changes in throw due to different ball conditions (e.g., beat up and dirty bar and pool hall balls vs. new, clean, polished tournament balls)?

I look forward to hearing more about your approach.

Thanks,
Dave

Hi Dave,
I will definitely produce a video to demonstrate and help explain these variables. I'll make this available on youtube when I get it done.

I think I can cover all you mention above except cue-stick elevation effects, other than to make remarks on considerations for minor cue stick elevation and elevation related to draw shots.

Once cue elevation becomes large, the necessary alignment varies quite rapidly and as such it is hard to develop any accurate adjustment system to compensate for it.

It's a bit like how to draw the CB when you are on the rail. It can be done, but it is a low percentage shot.

With the effective pivot point I have a pretty good idea of the adjustments now. There is one adjustment related to speed and another for CB to OB distance. And some calculation for tip offset and slight variation in cue elevation.

On long shots the CB will sometimes complete its swerve early in the travel path, so a perfectly linear relationship with distance doesn't always occur. So I need to keep refining this and generate a rule-of-thumb adjustment system which is reasonably accurate and easily calculable.

I'm also doing some testing with cues of different squirt characteristics to check that the formulas can be easily converted for various cues.

All the throw data seems fine, it is just a matter of explaining it well.

Colin

 

[Bob Jewett]

Watch Bustamonte

Hardly a person you could recommend as a model for fundamentals. Most people don't have 16 hours a day to spend learning wacky mechanics. In any case, I was talking about a group of people who have much better control of spin than Francisco.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, those who use the Pro One aiming method eventually become adept at an "air pivot" that is virtually undetectable in many cases.
...

Which pros are you referring to, and how do you know this?

 

[Siz]

Maybe the best way to convince the doubters that BHE/FHE are useful when wanting to apply english while still pocketing balls accurately would be to film a demo on a regulation 12 foot snooker table.

That would have me convinced anyway.

Anybody out there want to give it a try?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Patrick,
As I said in my post, BHE has uses, but they are limited in range without additional knowledge.

You can't even be sure of hitting the contact point you're aligned to if you don't know what the effective pivot point is for those particular shots.

And when you are putting various amounts of spin and english on he CB, the OB can throw very differently on some shots.
So just using BHE with one set pivot point is very limiting and not knowing the throw variables is also very limiting.

No one has published this information in detail in an instantly usable form, no one knows it off the top of their heads. So why not consider such knowledge as something that is potentially valuable to the development of the execution of BHE?

Colin

Colin, I wasn't trying to say your system isn't valuable; but you did seem to say that BHE is useless without it ("might as well just use english the way players have had to in the past"), which is what I reacted to.

I think your idea is a good one and hope to see some details.

pj
chgo

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Originally posted by SOLARTJE[
well colin, like I once told you, my shaft now has ring for each speed that i draw on my shaft. Before i bend down, i descide what speed i need, i put my bridgehand at that line and it works like a charm. For the last month i have been OVER using BHE. The lines on my shaft are ugly, but it works.

Took me much time to test my cue and find the right bridgelength for each speed, but now its easy. As long as my cue is as level as possible, i rarely miss due to english.]



Solartje,
It is my understanding that tip offset affects deflection but cue speed does not. Is this what you really mean or are you relating these speed rings to swerve?

Regards,
Tennessee Joe

 

[Colin Colenso]

Originally posted by SOLARTJE[
well colin, like I once told you, my shaft now has ring for each speed that i draw on my shaft. Before i bend down, i descide what speed i need, i put my bridgehand at that line and it works like a charm. For the last month i have been OVER using BHE. The lines on my shaft are ugly, but it works.

Took me much time to test my cue and find the right bridgelength for each speed, but now its easy. As long as my cue is as level as possible, i rarely miss due to english.]



Solartje,
It is my understanding that tip offset affects deflection but cue speed does not. Is this what you really mean or are you relating these speed rings to swerve?

Regards,
Tennessee Joe

Hey Joe,
A great power of BHE is that the amount of squirt as it increases with tip offset is essentially cancelled out by the change in cue direction on the other side. There's an explanation of this in my video on Youtube. Just search Back Hand English there to find it.

While squirt doesn't seem to increase due to speed, swerve certainly does. I've changed my mind on this since making that video.

So pivot point changes are really swerve adjustments. eg. On a slowish shot with 6 feet between CB and OB I'll need to pivot at around 18 inches. For a 1 foot hard shot a 10 inch pivot point is effective. For most shots around 14 inches is needed. That's for my cue, some will be a little longer, some a little shorter.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, I wasn't trying to say your system isn't valuable; but you did seem to say that BHE is useless without it ("might as well just use english the way players have had to in the past"), which is what I reacted to.

I think your idea is a good one and hope to see some details.

pj
chgo

Patrick,
What I really mean is that BHE, without knowledge of pivot point adjustments and throw adjustment has limited usefulness and less accuracy for many shots.

For many easy type shots it will work fine, but most of these also work fine with a little guestimation and a little practice just lining up to the CB with english already applied.

But I do think most beginners would accellerate through the learning of how to play shots with english if they used BHE, and could pretty quickly learn how to play advanced english shots if they spent some time learning the adjustments.

If someone is capable of potting well with plain follow, and are capable of hitting the CB where they aim and striking with reasonable power, they should be able to play all english shots well using the system. Just might take them a couple of months to get used to pivoting and to remember the adjustments. Opponents may not like it if they pull out their adjustment chart every 2nd shot.:embarrassed2:

Colin

 

[Dead Crab]

AV84FUN writes:
***************
But all too many of them are engineers only in their own minds
****************

Thems fightin' words.