Pausing at the cue ball vs pausing on the back stroke

[Scott Lee]

Dave...If you paid attention, you know there is a third pause...at the end of the forward stroke. We call it a finish, and it's just as important as the other two. BTW, for the sake of argument, ALL players pause all three places...whether they mean to, know it, or not. The pauses may be abbreviated, or "distinct"...but they are there nonetheless. Good players pause on purpose.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks Randy. Do you remember that ridiculously long debate about the "pause" on BD-CCB many years ago?

Thank you for helping to teach me and much of the pool world the value of the "set" and "end-of-backstroke" pauses.

Regards,
Dave

 

[randyg]

Thanks Randy. Do you remember that ridiculously long debate about the "pause" on BD-CCB many years ago?

Thank you for helping to teach me and much of the pool world the value of the "set" and "end-of-backstroke" pauses.

Regards,
Dave

Oh I remember well. Debates are fun, arguments are stupid.
Keep up the good work....SPF=randyg

 

[leehayes]

I find that I pause twice during my shooting. Once on the CB during my warmup strokes. Then on the back stroke right before I shoot. I find that when I do this on all shots I'm playing my best. I've tried both and the pause on the backstroke before my shot works best for me.

 

[randyg]

I find that I pause twice during my shooting. Once on the CB during my warmup strokes. Then on the back stroke right before I shoot. I find that when I do this on all shots I'm playing my best. I've tried both and the pause on the backstroke before my shot works best for me.

You should understand the reason why we need all three pauses....SPF=randyg

 

[dr_dave]

Dave...If you paid attention, you know there is a third pause...at the end of the forward stroke. We call it a finish, and it's just as important as the other two.

You could even argue there are four "pauses" (see my stroke "best practices" document). However, I like "freeze" better for the final "pause." I also prefer "set" instead of the first "pause." I like "pause" for any "distinct" or "deliberate" extended "stop" at the end of the backstroke; otherwise, there is just a "stop" (without a "pause").

BTW, for the sake of argument, ALL players pause all three places...whether they mean to, know it, or not. The pauses may be abbreviated, or "distinct"...but they are there nonetheless. Good players pause on purpose.

I know that's how you and Randy like to use the word; but strictly speaking, there can be a "stop" without a "pause." For more info, see:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#pause_def​

But as Randy pointed out, it's not worth it arguing over semantics as long as you are clear and people know what you mean.

Regards,
Dave

 

[GetMeThere]

I have to argue that this is one that should be individualized by the player** (do I have to note all the many BIZARRE variations of some of the best players who ever played)?

I have always paused long and hard at the CB (tip close to the CB). That always came naturally to me--you want to "feel" exactly where you want to finish (the last point you have meaningful control--an instant before you hit the CB). After that, it's necessary to have a "deliberate" backstroke--so that you "feel" the movement that's necessary to GET TO the final position.

Rather than a specific recipe, what's necessary is being DELIBERATE: having a full awareness of all the motions and spatial relationships. I'll agree that it's also necessary to "stop" after the hit--if you want to LEARN what you've done, which you should ALWAYS want to do on each shot.

For me personally, I have the notion that I will "forget" where I want to be, and what the backstroke felt like (i.e., the movement I want to reverse, in order to hit where I want), if I "pause" at the end of the backstroke.

But that's just my individual feeling about myself and controlling my own movements--I admit I've never tried a pause at the end of the backstroke, so I don't know if it could be useful to me or not. OTOH, though, I could not IMAGINE not pausing near the CB, and I can't picture any strong player who I've NOT seen pause there.

**EDIT: Experts on the cognitive aspects of performance HAVE noted that some things are true for ALL people--right alongside the observation that there ARE personal variations in cognitive approach between people, and that it never seems to work to try to mess with them TOO much. The performance world generally demonstrates that the very GREATEST performers very often (virtually always) had idiosyncrasies in their form or approach. One might say those idiosyncrasies are evidence of the meeting of personality and performance--such players are putting their WHOLE MIND into their performance, and it's that which makes them great...and not slavish devotion to some arbitrary "form."

Second edit: I've just read a wonderful article on scientific research, and the problem of error in research--most especially medical research. If you like to think of yourself as a thoughtful person who likes to KNOW what they're talking about (and the problems associated with that endeavor), then I recommend you read it.

 

[Island Drive]

Don't do it at the wrong time !!

Hitting whitey properly with a cue stick is a throwing motion. What it takes to have a smooth and consistent delivery while pocketing balls on a regular basis is a combination of many proven methods. There are traditional ways and many offshoots that also work well. Buddy Hall has a great swing pause at the top, Bustamante has a different great swing with similar foundational principles. Alan Hopkins, self taught, has delivery of the cue to the cue ball different than ALL other players. Rempe has a stance and game that runs with em all. Cornbread Red/Slip stroke like watching a violin, and how about Ciscero Murphy with the worlds Longest hesitation at the top of the back swing, bar none. The players nowadays see SVB in punch, pretty sight uhhuh and his path was chosen by his dad, mom, anyone know? All methods work, some courses of action get you there (quickly er') others not so much. Once you get to that level where your pickey again one learns being, NoT picky is whats most impt to ones character.:thumbup:

 

[scrappy]

i like to hold my stick still for a moment or two lining up the shot then go into my routine, seems to work well for me

 

[GetMeThere]

Here's one of the greatest stick-wielders of all time (IMO) showing that, not only doesn't he pause after the back-stroke, but his back-stroke itself is hardly slowed at all--it's almost as fast as the final forward stroke.

In fact his "routine" is highly variable (there are one or two occasions where he DOES pause a bit after the backstroke). The one consistent routine he seems to have is one or two "mini strokes" within a few inches of the CB. Again, that's a personal idiosyncrasy that most other players don't use (at least not in exactly the way he does).

 

[lfigueroa]

Dave...If you paid attention, you know there is a third pause...at the end of the forward stroke. We call it a finish, and it's just as important as the other two. BTW, for the sake of argument, ALL players pause all three places...whether they mean to, know it, or not. The pauses may be abbreviated, or "distinct"...but they are there nonetheless. Good players pause on purpose.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Just curious here: are you saying that if, ferinstance, we all looked at the top 20 or 30 (or I guess the whole field, according to you) at the US Open, they're *all* doing these three pauses?

Lou Figueroa
just looking for
clarification

 

[Scott Lee]

That's correct! They may be varying lengths of time, but they're there.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Just curious here: are you saying that if, ferinstance, we all looked at the top 20 or 30 (or I guess the whole field, according to you) at the US Open, they're *all* doing these three pauses?

Lou Figueroa
just looking for
clarification

 

[Neil]

...........

 

[GetMeThere]

Look again. He paused after each and every backstroke. Not for very long, but you can definitely see a pause.

"you" meaning me, I, GetMeThere? Sorry. I wasn't able to. MAYBE if I had a pair of the nifty SPF Zombie Detector specs--but you get those AFTER you reach the CTE decoder ring level; and I never even got to that level. Heck, I haven't even made my own tin foil hat yet!

What I saw was a dwell time physiologically required to switch from one intentional movement to an opposing intentional movement (plus, admittedly, a couple of clearly INTENTIONAL pauses in those 36 examples--the existence of which I acknowledged in my original comment).

Edit: Just for sh*ts and giggles (as the English say) I watched the video again in order to note the clearly intentional pauses. The only clear one occurred at time 2:43 as he potted the black for 64 points. Otherwise, nearly half his shots were "half-stroke-pokes" that no instructor in fundamentals would approve of.

 

[JarnoV]

But as Randy pointed out, it's not worth it arguing over semantics as long as you are clear and people know what you mean.

Which obviously is not the case for most of the posters here, including Randy.

 

[Siz]

"you" meaning me, I, GetMeThere? Sorry. I wasn't able to. MAYBE if I had a pair of the nifty SPF Zombie Detector specs--but you get those AFTER you reach the CTE decoder ring level; and I never even got to that level. Heck, I haven't even made my own tin foil hat yet!

What I saw was a dwell time physiologically required to switch from one intentional movement to an opposing intentional movement (plus, admittedly, a couple of clearly INTENTIONAL pauses in those 36 examples--the existence of which I acknowledged in my original comment).

Edit: Just for sh*ts and giggles (as the English say) I watched the video again in order to note the clearly intentional pauses. The only clear one occurred at time 2:43 as he potted the black for 64 points. Otherwise, nearly half his shots were "half-stroke-pokes" that no instructor in fundamentals would approve of.

I agree with Neil. There is a distinct pause. It is more difficult to see in this rack because O'Sullivan is playing so much faster than his normal pace. So everything gets condensed. (He was playing well enough at the time to do this without worrying about timing errors.)

To see that his normal game does have an obvious pause, look at almost any of the other clips of him on YouTube. For example this 147 run was the second video that Google came up with (after the fasted ever 147 clip).

It is rare to find a top class snooker player without a clear pause at the end of the backswing. But these two are notable exceptions.

 

[GetMeThere]

For example this 147 run was the second video that Google came up with (after the fasted ever 147 clip).

It is rare to find a top class snooker player without a clear pause at the end of the backswing. But these two are notable exceptions.

I agree that in the second video, he shows what could be called an intentional "pause" on the backstroke--but saying so only confirms that he DOESN'T have such a pause in the first video. The very ambiguity of his style addresses the question "Must you have an intentional "pause" on the backstroke" in a totally UNambiguous manner. The answer is no, because a great player both has one and doesn't have one--depending on...I don't know what--his mood.

Ronnie is VERY OBVIOUSLY not a slave to a particular technique regarding pauses. THAT is the important point. His method (one could conclude) is to backstroke and forward stroke with full intentionality and awareness of the proprioception of his movements. Sometimes he adds an intentional pause between the back and forward strokes, sometimes he doesn't.

PS: Thanks for linking that. I had seen all his maxes except the last.

Note:
Here and here he's back to intentional pauses about half the time. Here he's back to natural physiologically required pauses and not intentional pauses. And here he seems back to a fairly consistent intentional pause.

Here's Paul Hunter shooting most shots without an intentional pause after the backstroke--maybe that's why he shot only 146!

 

[Neil]

............

 

[randyg]

Here's one of the greatest stick-wielders of all time (IMO) showing that, not only doesn't he pause after the back-stroke, but his back-stroke itself is hardly slowed at all--it's almost as fast as the final forward stroke.

In fact his "routine" is highly variable (there are one or two occasions where he DOES pause a bit after the backstroke). The one consistent routine he seems to have is one or two "mini strokes" within a few inches of the CB. Again, that's a personal idiosyncrasy that most other players don't use (at least not in exactly the way he does).

So I just watched that video. I'm confused about your statement. I watched Ronnie pause on every back stroke. What a nice pace and tempo that gentleman has! I do agree with you that Ronnie is one of the best...SPF=randyg

 

[randyg]

Just curious here: are you saying that if, ferinstance, we all looked at the top 20 or 30 (or I guess the whole field, according to you) at the US Open, they're *all* doing these three pauses?

Lou Figueroa
just looking for
clarification

Lou, they have to, just at different speeds.

I thing Physics still apply to all pool players. An object moving in one direction has to stop before it moves in the opposite direction.

I thing that you personally have one of the smoothest strokes and you stop your cue at least three times in your routine....SPF=randyg

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I don't think ALL players pause at the back of their stroke. I'd also guess most don't versus who do. I do think many players pause somewhat at the CB prior to the back swing as well as finishing. The pause at the back of the stroke is not there in all players, for sure.

Here's one who doesn't pause at the back-stroke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INzRX2mf2nw

Another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGs5cF9oE1A

Another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdwHgXpxQqA&feature=related

Another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r-2dhxkpGQ&feature=related

I'm sure it could be argued that each of these guys have a "pause" that's so minute, you can't see it (but it's there). That's only true because the arm has to physically change direction-- so there has to be a stopping of motion. However, unless it's apparent, I don't think it can be said.

I'm NOT knocking the pause in any way. Many great players have done well with it (Allison Fisher, Buddy Hall, etc); however, everyone doesn't pause at the back of their stroke nor is it required to play at a top level.

Just my 2 cents.

Dave