Pay top 10% like White Diamonds...

1on1pooltournys

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could ya'll imagine if there was say just one tournament a month like White Diamonds? Pool would jump in the right direction! Now granted most of money is generated from the Calcutta and they gamble in the south, but it's a formula that could have some success.

For example, What draws the players there? The money. 128 players battling it out because they know they are going to WIN SOMETHING should they get in the top 10%.

Imo, pool players are a bit spoiled. They expect to get something for nothing, basically in regards to tournaments. They wanna put up small entry fees and then count every quarter and expect to get 100 dollars if they win a match. This isn't how the real world works. Take a book out of poker's page. They pay usually only 10% of the field and the tournaments fill up all over the WORLD!

There are a lot of players in the world that would take pool dead serious if they knew they had a chance to play in one tournament a month where they could win 5 to 20k. This is starting off small of course. Imagine if 128 of these people would pay a monthly fee in order to be able to play in these tournaments. I knew leagues were good for something. They get players to pay every week for nothing. Imagine if 128 of the top players in the world paid just 50 or 100 a month to be a member. Surely they could get this sponsored at the very least.

Now somebody steal my idea and run with it!
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Formula seems to work for Allen Hopkins and the SBE. Think he actually paid the top 64 out of 979 in the Open event. Seniors paid 32 out of 365. Super Seniors was 16 out of 167. Really like the $500 cash for 33 to 64. Allows a player to at least cover their expenses for four days.

Lyn
 

1on1pooltournys

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not trying to knock any tours, but most of them pay pathetic. White Diamonds is great for players. They know going in they are going to win BIG if they succeed. I would like to see other tournaments follow suite. It's ok to raise the entry a little.

Most of the arguments I hear are, " weaker players won't play if entry is too high or we don't pay half the field" or whatever. My answer to that is there is a thousand GREAT players that will take their places if we can just get the money where it needs to be. Like I said, use POKER as the role model and look at their tournaments. They don't have any issues.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
the promoters are, in fact setting the standars of the rules

Could ya'll imagine if there was say just one tournament a month like White Diamonds? Pool would jump in the right direction! Now granted most of money is generated from the Calcutta and they gamble in the south, but it's a formula that could have some success.

For example, What draws the players there? The money. 128 players battling it out because they know they are going to WIN SOMETHING should they get in the top 10%.

Imo, pool players are a bit spoiled. They expect to get something for nothing, basically in regards to tournaments. They wanna put up small entry fees and then count every quarter and expect to get 100 dollars if they win a match. This isn't how the real world works. Take a book out of poker's page. They pay usually only 10% of the field and the tournaments fill up all over the WORLD!

There are a lot of players in the world that would take pool dead serious if they knew they had a chance to play in one tournament a month where they could win 5 to 20k. This is starting off small of course. Imagine if 128 of these people would pay a monthly fee in order to be able to play in these tournaments. I knew leagues were good for something. They get players to pay every week for nothing. Imagine if 128 of the top players in the world paid just 50 or 100 a month to be a member. Surely they could get this sponsored at the very least.

Now somebody steal my idea and run with it!

I personally agree with you. I always look at the top 3 places and what they pay. And, as a result I don't have any desire to play in tournaments these days.

I see the side of the promoters, they are just interested in maximizing the fields to maximize their potential profit. This makes good business sense.

The problem with this is the promoters are, in fact making the rules for all of pool , the length of races, the use of "trick equipment", playing loser breaks or "break and first shot rules". no seeding, low entry fees, spreading out the prize money to a third of the field, etc.

These things all even out the playing field into a socialistic platform. "We want totally different people in the top 5 every tournament" is their Battle Cry.

The "Battle Cry" of the Top Pros??? Well, we just have to laugh to keep from....not laughing. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yeah, the promoters are really striking it rich, aren't they? LMAO Chris Miller (the promoter of this event) probably made enough off of the players to retire!...I doubt if he made much, if anything, from the tournament. He doubtless made money from food and drink, which he completely deserved. No doubt Barry pocketed at least $50,000, so that he could look good stiffing the players. Mark Griffin makes money from the league, but I doubt he gets rich hosting the national tournament. Can't speak about Mike Janis or Shannon Daulton...but both of them work their asses off, and I don't see either of them looking to retire (if they could financially).

Hey Jay...how about telling us all the millions you've made as a tournament promoter! Not true? Hmmmm...the promoters must be doing something wrong! Most people who promote pool do it for the love of the sport.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I see the side of the promoters, they are just interested in maximizing the fields to maximize their potential profit. This makes good business sense.
 
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1on1pooltournys

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, the promoters are really striking it rich, aren't they? LMAO Chris Miller (the promoter of this event) probably made enough off of the players to retire!...I doubt if he made much, if anything, from the tournament. He doubtless made money from food and drink, which he completely deserved. No doubt Barry pocketed at least $50,000, so that he could look good stiffing the players. Mark Griffin makes money from the league, but I doubt he gets rich hosting the national tournament. Can't speak about Mike Janis or Shannon Daulton...but both of them work their asses off, and I don't see either of them looking to retire (if they could financially).

Hey Jay...how about telling us all the millions you've made as a tournament promoter! Not true? Hmmmm...the promoters must be doing something wrong! Most people who promote pool do it for the love of the sport.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

So, you take a quote out of context and try to be a cyber bully? LMAO. Nobody said promoters are striking it rich.

But, they could...someday...if they would get past egos and politics.
 

bmsclayton

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
made no money

Yeah, the promoters are really striking it rich, aren't they? LMAO Chris Miller (the promoter of this event) probably made enough off of the players to retire!...I doubt if he made much, if anything, from the tournament. He doubtless made money from food and drink, which he completely deserved. No doubt Barry pocketed at least $50,000, so that he could look good stiffing the players. Mark Griffin makes money from the league, but I doubt he gets rich hosting the national tournament. Can't speak about Mike Janis or Shannon Daulton...but both of them work their asses off, and I don't see either of them looking to retire (if they could financially).

Hey Jay...how about telling us all the millions you've made as a tournament promoter! Not true? Hmmmm...the promoters must be doing something wrong! Most people who promote pool do it for the love of the sport.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

he added $1000 and they had 128 players in a race to seven. An .11 bottle of water was $2. I personally paid $125 in pool time while in action and another $100 on my bar tabs. The tables were busy for at least 3 days plus however long they stick around to gamble. He made money without a doubt. And there is nothing wrong with it. Great place, great calcutta, and he took the risk when investing his money to run a place.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
two shot roll out is the best rules ever made for 9 Ball (or 10 ball)

So, you take a quote out of context and try to be a cyber bully? LMAO. Nobody said promoters are striking it rich.

But, they could...someday...if they would get past egos and politics.

Yes, I certainly made no claims that the promoters are getting rich. ( to the contrary judging by current US OPEN events) My point is they make the rules and races to suit the tournament schedule. Any race under 15 isn't long enough for the "rolls" to equal out.

Two shot roll out is the best rules ever made for 9 Ball (or 10 ball), but "one foul rules" were implemented to speed up play and keep Earl, Buddy and Sigel from dominating every tournament.

This didn't exactly work as planned, but it did give the average pros a chance to win once in a while. Playing "two foul rules" a average pro will NEVER beat a top pro by lucking out.

They either have to play exceptionally or the Champion has to play poorly. The luck factor is reduced to practically nothing, especially on tight equipment playing call shot.

Like I said, if promoters are trying to fill huge fields their decision make good business sense. If the players want to make the game the best it can be they must take control of making the tournament regulations, rules and guidelines.

This can be done amicably, I'm certainly not talking about boycotts or anything other than making the rules the best for the game. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Gold Member
Silver Member
I heartily disagree about a 10% payout.
How is the game ever going to grow if it doesn't support a BODY of players.

I like how the PGA handles it...years ago, #1 tennis player made more than
#1 golfer, but #17 tennis player made less than #150th golfer.
..here's a payout chart for the PGA...
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...fjmC7b7JTZqXT-Gyg&sig2=0FegKA1PW-u6DgtsJyXghg

..and they've earned everything they get, by good management....
.. 60 or 70 years ago, they were more like pool hustlers....
...many were called 'golf bums'
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's no wonder pool's "out of sight, out of mine"

I heartily disagree about a 10% payout.
How is the game ever going to grow if it doesn't support a BODY of players.

I like how the PGA handles it...years ago, #1 tennis player made more than
#1 golfer, but #17 tennis player made less than #150th golfer.
..here's a payout chart for the PGA...
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...fjmC7b7JTZqXT-Gyg&sig2=0FegKA1PW-u6DgtsJyXghg

..and they've earned everything they get, by good management....
.. 60 or 70 years ago, they were more like pool hustlers....
...many were called 'golf bums'

You make a valid point. It's always been my opinion that if you're truly a pro player you should make "something" for last place.

Let the qualifiers fill spots for players that want to try to compete, but if must be like a REAL BUSINESS. If you work, you should get paid, and if not it's just a hobby.

Pool tournaments are hobbies for many players and that's how it's designed. In a real business if you work for 3 or 4 days and don't even make your expenses I highly doubt if you'd go back to that job.

With the tournament prize funds of today they probably should be having tournaments with 8 players. That way they can pay all the players and have enough to PROMOTE the tournaments.

Send out Press Releases, do TV interviews, Radio interviews, lessons the day before the event, charity events. These things were all done when I was playing in the 90s, why not now? How are people expected to know there's a pro tournament in the area if it's not promoted.

When you add this factor in all over the country it's no wonder pool's "out of sight, out of mine". "Food for thought"
 

iba7467

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of the best threads ever. I agree with the payout system and that something has to change.

I also say that players who "REALLY" want to make good money at it have to not be so short-sighted. They want to enter a tournament, not spend a dime to support the pool room, take first place and then never return. The leagues have a very successful model. They collect money throughout the year and then have a big payback at the end.

I believe you could pay the top say 15% of players in a tournament and hold out say 25%. This 25% hold out should be contributed to a year end tournament. To qualify for the year end tournament you have to have played in a certain number of the events, no requirement that you placed or anything just that you supported the events. Year end tournament payouts would only be limited to how much participation you could get in each of the one's leading up to it. I see no reason first place in a system like this (after a couple years of building) could not reach $80,000 consistently while still allowing the top finishers to make money every tournament.

This would never work however, as POOL PLAYERS ARE TOO SHORT-SIGHTED.
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
You make a valid point. It's always been my opinion that if you're truly a pro player you should make "something" for last place.........Let the qualifiers fill spots for players that want to try to compete, but if must be like a REAL BUSINESS. If you work, you should get paid, and if not it's just a hobby.

OK CJ, first tell me, who is a pro player? To me, that is the crux of the problem. The two largest sanctioning bodies APA and BCAPL can not (or will not) tell you who they are. It's kind of like Judge Potter Stewart who tried to describe pornography. He couldn't. Finally said "I know it when I see it".

Even if there was an agreed upon list of "pro" players, how does an amateur become a "pro"? Again, there is no agreed upon route from one status to the other. You want to make a REAL BUSINESS out of the "pro" pool tournament world? Answer those questions first. Then we can discuss sponsorship and a tour. Otherwise you have nothing but the same twenty or so "recognized" players at your events. Appearance money won't come till there is sponsorship significant enough to allow money to be set aside for that purpose.

Till then, the "pro" pool world needs me and players like me to fill fields. It's sad but true!

Lyn
 

Juice

Efren da king of pink!
Silver Member
Could ya'll imagine if there was say just one tournament a month like White Diamonds? Pool would jump in the right direction! Now granted most of money is generated from the Calcutta and they gamble in the south, but it's a formula that could have some success.

For example, What draws the players there? The money. 128 players battling it out because they know they are going to WIN SOMETHING should they get in the top 10%.

Imo, pool players are a bit spoiled. They expect to get something for nothing, basically in regards to tournaments. They wanna put up small entry fees and then count every quarter and expect to get 100 dollars if they win a match. This isn't how the real world works. Take a book out of poker's page. They pay usually only 10% of the field and the tournaments fill up all over the WORLD!

There are a lot of players in the world that would take pool dead serious if they knew they had a chance to play in one tournament a month where they could win 5 to 20k. This is starting off small of course. Imagine if 128 of these people would pay a monthly fee in order to be able to play in these tournaments. I knew leagues were good for something. They get players to pay every week for nothing. Imagine if 128 of the top players in the world paid just 50 or 100 a month to be a member. Surely they could get this sponsored at the very least.

Now somebody steal my idea and run with it!

I wish they would to!

he added $1000 and they had 128 players in a race to seven. An .11 bottle of water was $2. I personally paid $125 in pool time while in action and another $100 on my bar tabs. The tables were busy for at least 3 days plus however long they stick around to gamble. He made money without a doubt. And there is nothing wrong with it. Great place, great calcutta, and he took the risk when investing his money to run a place.

He does add a dime to the tournament. He also had $6,000 in the calcutta that he had to pay on how he trys to get the money in the tournament. He knows that is the key to the tournaments in Louisiana because his people like to get involved in the tournament and this is a way to compete and have a chance to win. He deserves all he makes for this tournament because he never stops brother. He works hard to make this torunament sucessful.
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Whoever pays there monthly "dues" and wants to compete for real money!!

Don't mean to be a smart ass but.... If I pay my yearly dues (as I did for my UPA and MPBA memberships) does that make me a professional player? Doesn't playing ability have something to do with that status? With CJ suggesting paying all professional players at an event, wouldn't you be pissed if I received a guaranteed payout and you didn't? The definition of a profession pool player has to be more than a membership card or paid "dues"!

Lyn
 

fathomblue

Rusty Shackleford
Silver Member
I'm an amateur and I can tell you from MY point of view......that when I play in these "big" tournaments, I have very little aspirations of cashing.

It's not that I don't think that I'm good enough. Even tho that I'm honestly not. I do tell myself that if I get a good draw, some good rolls and play to the level that I know I've played from time to time........that sure, I MIGHT cash in at the lower level. But, I don't go in with a defeatist attitude, which is what I really mean.

However, I do NOT enter tournaments like the Southern Classic and the White Diamond Super 9-ball event to make money.

1. I go for the life experience.

2. I go to watch better players.

3. I go to PLAY better players.

4. I go to experience higher pressure situations than I currently encounter locally.

5. I go to meet new people, including AZ'ers.

6. I go to support pool.

7. I go, that in the hopes that if I keep practicing and experience events such as these.......that it will harden me and I WILL eventually be the kind of player that others will respect at the table. A player that when a opponent draws me, they know that I'm not dead money, and they're gonna have to bring their hardhat and lunchbox. So, am I vain enough to want to be a "known player"? Yep. Sure am.

Do I speak for all amateurs? No. But, I think it's somewhat foolish for anyone more than a notch below a shortstop....to enter and EXPECT to make money off of these types of events. Again, good draws, rolls and being in the zone COULD get you somewhere, so shoot for the stars, right?

I'd much rather that the top 10% get paid in the OPEN events, thereby hopefully ensuring that those that do cash, get enough to warrant returning next year.

So, do I drive 10 hours hoping that I get my $40 entry back? Not on your life. Call me stupid, but I'd rather my entry fee go to a pro/shortstop, so that I get the opportunity to maybe glean a nugget from playing against them in a set.

Now, in a true PRO event, where you have large entry fees, membership requirements to an organization such as the ABP or whatever......basically something that restricts amateur players such as myself from even entering.........yes, I think all pro's should get paid at least a little. Much like I've seen in golf. But, that's where event sponsorship/streaming fees/marketing, etc. comes in. Which brings us right back to the problem.

Just my $.02.
 
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CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is a good question, Lynn, so I included a definition below.

OK CJ, first tell me, who is a pro player? To me, that is the crux of the problem. The two largest sanctioning bodies APA and BCAPL can not (or will not) tell you who they are. It's kind of like Judge Potter Stewart who tried to describe pornography. He couldn't. Finally said "I know it when I see it".

Even if there was an agreed upon list of "pro" players, how does an amateur become a "pro"? Again, there is no agreed upon route from one status to the other. You want to make a REAL BUSINESS out of the "pro" pool tournament world? Answer those questions first. Then we can discuss sponsorship and a tour. Otherwise you have nothing but the same twenty or so "recognized" players at your events. Appearance money won't come till there is sponsorship significant enough to allow money to be set aside for that purpose.

Till then, the "pro" pool world needs me and players like me to fill fields. It's sad but true!

Lyn

This is a good question, Lynn, so I included a definition below. My opinion is THIS: "if you can't pay someone to work, you can't afford to hire them".....the only Pro Players, by definition below are those that receive payment for their performance. If you go to a pro tournament and don't make money, you are NOT a pro. If you take into account their expenses there are less than 10 Professional Players in the USA. This is by strict definition and that is reality. I think to change "reality" you must first be willing to face reality. imho CJ Wiley


Professional sports
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Professional sports, as opposed to amateur sports, are sports in which athletes receive payment for their performance. Professional athleticism has come to the fore through a combination of development.(65, 105, 225)"] Mass media and increased leisure have brought larger audiences, so that sports organizations or teams can command large incomes.[1]Outside of the highest leagues, however, the money professional athletes can earn drops dramatically, as fan bases are generally smaller and television revenues are nonexistent. For instance, while the National Football League's teams can afford to pay their players millions of dollars each year and still maintain a significant profit, the second-highest American football league in the United States, the United Football League, has consistently struggled to pay its bills and has continually lost money despite allotting its players only US$20,000 a year.[7][8][9] In the United States and Canada, most lower-end professional leagues run themselves as affiliated farm teams, effectively agreeing to develop younger players for eventual play in the major leagues in exchange for subsidizing those players' salaries; this is known as the minor league system and is most prevalent in professional baseball and professional ice hockey.
 

1on1pooltournys

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don't mean to be a smart ass but.... If I pay my yearly dues (as I did for my UPA and MPBA memberships) does that make me a professional player? Doesn't playing ability have something to do with that status? With CJ suggesting paying all professional players at an event, wouldn't you be pissed if I received a guaranteed payout and you didn't? The definition of a profession pool player has to be more than a membership card or paid "dues"!

Lyn

Here would be my tour...

I would invite 96 of the top players in the World. They would have to pay a monthly membership, which hopefully they could receive from a sponsor. I would then conduct some type of qualifier system for the remaining 32 players. After the 128 players were established (meanwhile promoting and marketing would be taking place along with finding outside sponsorship) the tour would start and probably consist of 12 tournaments throughout the United States to start off. All of the money accumulated each month from the 128 players (12,800) would go into escrow and 10,000 of it each month would go into the monthly tournaments. The entry fees would be say 200 dollars. If my math is right this would be tourneys with 35k plus added each month. This does not include any outside sponsorship. Of course at the end of the year would be some type of finally, and we would take the money left over each month (2800) minus whatever cost had to be used for the tour, and add this money to a year end "finale". I think the Finale should probably only be compromised of say the top 64 finishers, or something along these lines.

Of course each tourney would pay top 10-15%.
 

$TAKE HOR$E

champagne - campaign
Silver Member
The top players are gonna want a high $$ payout with minimal spots paid, and thats understandable. The low players, for the most part, are gonna want the payout to trickle down a little further, understandable also. I just watched the finals of the USBTC and with a 185 players in the 8-ball (I think) it paid out 64 places with first getting $5700. I am by no means a good player but paying out over 30% of the field seems a little much.
 
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