Perhaps she had a few too many......APA ruling

[Da Poet]

Standard 8-Ball Rules

4.20 LOSS OF GAME

A player loses the game by committing any of the following infractions:

1. Fouls when pocketing the 8-ball (exception: 8-Ball Pocketed On The Break). <<< this would end all discussion whether if the 8-ball is going to be re-spotted and a BIH or lose of a game.

therefore, she clearly lost the game not by hitting the 8-ball but by pocketing it without the CB. clearly a foul and an automatic lose. regardless of whether she was intoxicated, it shouldn't be used as an excuse. as this would create an unsportmanlike atmosphere in the game and might become an unhealthy trend.

The goofy thing about this situation is technically, she didn't foul when she pocketed the eight because the cue ball was never touched, either by her, or by another ball. The eight was simply an unintentially moved object ball. Because it went in the pocket after it was unintentially moved is not relevant.

The same thing applies when someone accidently uses an object ball for the cue ball. If the cue ball was never moved, then the balls get respotted and no foul has occured whether a ball went in the pocket or not.

Personally, I think she should have been given the win. Happy drunk women around pool tables is never a bad thing.

Okay, mostly never.

 

[Gregg]

Personally, I think she should have been given the win. Happy drunk women around pool tables is never a bad thing.

Okay, mostly never.

You obviously haven't seen some of the women in my league.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

The goofy thing about this situation is technically, she didn't foul when she pocketed the eight because the cue ball was never touched, either by her, or by another ball. The eight was simply an unintentially moved object ball. Because it went in the pocket after it was unintentially moved is not relevant.

The same thing applies when someone accidently uses an object ball for the cue ball. If the cue ball was never moved, then the balls get respotted and no foul has occured whether a ball went in the pocket or not.

Personally, I think she should have been given the win. Happy drunk women around pool tables is never a bad thing.

Okay, mostly never.

I had also taken that into consideration before I posted an excerpt from the general rules in 8-ball. actually it confused me a bit when I thought about that sort of scenario since technically she didn't move the CB. I had also taken into consideration that the 8-ball was the last intended ball to be pocketed. this particular factor really made me a lot more confused.

so this became a question of technicality. however, it doesn't mean that because it is not written specifically in the rule book, makes the kind of shot legal.

in some aspect, a re-spot seems a logical solution. however, this contradicts the general rules of 8-ball which indicate that pocketed balls (legal or otherwise) and fouled out balls cannot be re-spotted and will remain pocketed. most especially with regards to the 8-ball, where the said ball cannot be re-spotted when it had already been pocketed nor fouled-out. a BIH would only affirm a foul or preceded by a foul and a re-spot on a made ball does not apply to the rules of 8-ball.

So, before my head explodes, here is my simple solution in a somewhat confusing problem. "the OB was the legal pocketed ball, the shot wasn't" . therefore "lose of a game".

That's it folks, I need a drink !

 

[Endymion]

Your first mistake was calling the pocket. APA requires you to mark it.

In our regular league play, the 8 ball is never marked (like 8 years of play and have never seen someone mark the 8). In regional play, that goes upwards of 60% and then it approaches 100% when you get to Vegas.

At least I didn't break my cue. A friend of mine put a permanent bend in his new Predator shaft when he pulled the same stunt but got the tip stuck in the pocket as he tripped.

 

[FLICKit]

I had also taken that into consideration before I posted an excerpt from the general rules in 8-ball. actually it confused me a bit when I thought about that sort of scenario since technically she didn't move the CB. I had also taken into consideration that the 8-ball was the last intended ball to be pocketed. this particular factor really made me a lot more confused.

so this became a question of technicality. however, it doesn't mean that because it is not written specifically in the rule book, makes the kind of shot legal.

in some aspect, a re-spot seems a logical solution. however, this contradicts the general rules of 8-ball which indicate that pocketed balls (legal or otherwise) and fouled out balls cannot be re-spotted and will remain pocketed. most especially with regards to the 8-ball, where the said ball cannot be re-spotted when it had already been pocketed nor fouled-out. a BIH would only affirm a foul or preceded by a foul and a re-spot on a made ball does not apply to the rules of 8-ball.

So, before my head explodes, here is my simple solution in a somewhat confusing problem. "the OB was the legal pocketed ball, the shot wasn't" . therefore "lose of a game".

That's it folks, I need a drink !

Kind of funny, how when there is a simple interpretation of the rules, that's pretty straightforward, AND when there is a complex interpretation that concludes with confusion, how often people want to hold onto the confusing interpretation.

First of all, wouldn't rule "loss of game" because the rule book specifically defines the loss of game conditions on p51 section 10. This does not comply with any of criteria listed.

On page 50 section 9g it states "any balls moved accidentally during a shot must be replaced by the opponent after the shot is over and all balls have stopped rolling. If it occurs before the shot, it must be replaced before the shot is taken." This is a simple fit and simple fix to the situation originally described.

Some might try to argue about the accidental part. Yet within one context, accidental can be applicable.

If you try to take it to the level of extremely nitpicky, then you definitely won't be able to find any nitpicky interpretation resulting in loss of game.

 

[TheBook]

In our regular league play, the 8 ball is never marked (like 8 years of play and have never seen someone mark the 8). In regional play, that goes upwards of 60% and then it approaches 100% when you get to Vegas.

At least I didn't break my cue. A friend of mine put a permanent bend in his new Predator shaft when he pulled the same stunt but got the tip stuck in the pocket as he tripped.

I thought all APA leagues play by the same rules. On page 9 of the rules rule #11 addresses marking the pocket.

http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

Maybe it is up to the operator.

Never had the opportunity to go to Vegas for the tournament. Have heard a lot of stories on how the rules are different and the skill levels are not equal in all areas.

 

[Da Poet]

I thought all APA leagues play by the same rules. On page 9 of the rules rule #11 addresses marking the pocket.

http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf

Maybe it is up to the operator.

Never had the opportunity to go to Vegas for the tournament. Have heard a lot of stories on how the rules are different and the skill levels are not equal in all areas.

Nah, the rule is the same, it's just that locally in some divisions, especially where everyone knows each other, the teams often agree to waive having to mark the pocket. Of course you still have to call it.

 

[MrLucky]

Let me ask a silly question ...

That would be the case with any shot originating from the cue ball. For example, cue ball hits 8 and knocks it in an unmarked pocket would be loss of game. Or cue hits solid or stripe, which in turn knocks 8 in, would be a loss.

That criteria is not applicable to this situation, since the shot did not originate with the cue ball.


Page 30 has nothing applicable to this situation.
Page 47 #6 refers to BALLS ON THE FLOOR (which already is not applicable here). It states "If the 8 ball is knocked on the floor, it is loss of game. Other object balls that get knocked on the floor will be spotted...

All of this would 100% apply, if the shot at hand began with the cue ball and knocked said balls on floor. In this case it clearly didn't originate with contact on the cue ball.


True. But of course All balls must be replaced before play would continue.

Have you ever played APA 8 ball? if you have you should know that ANYTIME the 8 goes in to a pocket that wasn't called or marked it is loss of game ! in this case she may have marked the pocket but it was a illegal hit on the 8 Loss of Game ! Period.

 

[frankncali]

Have you ever played APA 8 ball? if you have you should know that ANYTIME the 8 goes in to a pocket that wasn't called or marked it is loss of game ! in this case she may have marked the pocket but it was a illegal hit on the 8 Loss of Game ! Period.

Just curious as to a couple other senarios....

You shoot the 8 ball and hang it up .... I come to the table and while studying the table the 8 falls ... whats the verdict?

Same situation as above but after you hang up the 8 ball I shoot a ball and then while figuring out my next shot the 8 falls ... whats the verdict?

While shooting I hit the 8 ball with my hand and knock it foward and into another ball ..it caroms into the pocket ... I never hit the OB ..whats the verdict?

After leaning over for a shot I raise up off the table and my stomach hits a ball and it hits 2 or 3 more and one of those knocks in the 8 ball ... whats the verdict?

If I am understanding you previous posts then all the above would be loss of game but for who?


Also slightly off topic of this thread ... whats the penalty for "intentionally"
hitting other balls while shooting? I was thinking probably a sportsmanship issue with no penalty.

 

[frankncali]

MR Lucky???

Mr Lucky and others I had this happen... whats your verdict?

My opposition was shooting a long rail bank while jacked up over the 13 ball.
He strikes his ball (8) cleanly but in trying to get up off the shot his cue hits the 13 ball.

The 13 comes backwards and a little towards the rail. The 8 banks and heads towards the other end of the table but about 1 diamond off towards the middle.

It hits the 13 ball, which has been replaced there, and caroms off into the corner that has been marked.

Whats the verdict?

Would it matter if it were just solids and stripes involved and not the 8 ball?

I sent this to the APA and got their response. Just curious as to what you would believe the correct ruling. Odd situation that I dont think will happen very often.

 

[Craig Fales]

I'm amazed NOBODY let her know she was bridging behind the 8 lol.

They needed a good laugh...

 

[Da Poet]

Have you ever played APA 8 ball? if you have you should know that ANYTIME the 8 goes in to a pocket that wasn't called or marked it is loss of game ! in this case she may have marked the pocket but it was a illegal hit on the 8 Loss of Game ! Period.

MrLucky, it's always far more persuasive to cite the rule and let the rule do the talking.

Please quote from the rules the closest thing you can find to support the phrases "ANYTIME the eight goes into a pocket", or "illegal hit on the eight"

Here's the link again:

http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf

 

[FLICKit]

If these questions were designed to elicit a response out of MrLucky, then MrLucky read no further.[\QUOTE=END OF FILE FOR MRLUCKY]

Just curious as to a couple other senarios....

You shoot the 8 ball and hang it up .... I come to the table and while studying the table the 8 falls ... whats the verdict?

When the balls appear to stop, it has 4 seconds to fall. If it doesn't fall within 4 seconds then the ball is replaced.

Same situation as above but after you hang up the 8 ball I shoot a ball and then while figuring out my next shot the 8 falls ... whats the verdict?

If no balls came in contact with it to make it fall, then the ball is once again replaced.

While shooting I hit the 8 ball with my hand and knock it foward and into another ball ..it caroms into the pocket ... I never hit the OB ..whats the verdict?

Multiple factors come into play here.
1. If the balls moved legally from the shot remain separate from the accidentally moved balls, then the accidentally moved balls must be replaced, and play resumes as normal. This includes if the player actually pocketed a ball legally, then the player continues their turn.
2. If the balls moved legally come in contact with or would've come in contact with the accidentally moved balls, then the balls are placed as best as possible, and it would be a foul on the shooter.
3. If this situation could've affected a game losing situation, i.e. possibly have knocked the 8 ball in, or possibly have scratched while shooting on the 8, then the only remedy is to assess loss of game.

After leaning over for a shot I raise up off the table and my stomach hits a ball and it hits 2 or 3 more and one of those knocks in the 8 ball ... whats the verdict?

If I am understanding you previous posts then all the above would be loss of game but for who?

Balls must be replaced.

Also slightly off topic of this thread ... whats the penalty for "intentionally"
hitting other balls while shooting? I was thinking probably a sportsmanship issue with no penalty.

Yep. Sportsmanship violation. If the player continues to be disruptive to the league, then the player could be suspended temporarily or even permanently.

 

[MrLucky]

according to the rules

Just curious as to a couple other senarios....

You shoot the 8 ball and hang it up .... I come to the table and while studying the table the 8 falls ... whats the verdict?
I have had this happen to one of my players ! No loss if the 8 is hung up for a specified period of time!
Same situation as above but after you hang up the 8 ball I shoot a ball and then while figuring out my next shot the 8 falls ... whats the verdict?
same thing I am not sure how many seconds but there is a time rule !
While shooting I hit the 8 ball with my hand and knock it foward and into another ball ..it caroms into the pocket ... I never hit the OB ..whats the verdict?

After leaning over for a shot I raise up off the table and my stomach hits a ball and it hits 2 or 3 more and one of those knocks in the 8 ball ... whats the verdict?
LOL! I would have to get a ruling on that one from the LO but it sounds like a diet just might be in order!
If I am understanding you previous posts then all the above would be loss of game but for who?


Also slightly off topic of this thread ... whats the penalty for "intentionally"
hitting other balls while shooting? I was thinking probably a sportsmanship issue with no penalty.

this sounds correct as long as you do not intentionally shoot in the 8 ! there have been occasions here where folks were trying to do this to raise their opponents handicap to try and make the team ineligible to match up in the playoffs! sad but true!
the exception also is if you intentionally shoot in a opponents ball it is marked a safety and BIH to them!
A FYI I do not work for the APA I am just a long time player (1983 back from the Bush days ) in the league and a Captain of a team for the last several years! Mr Flika was posting incorrect interpretations ! I did bring this post up with our division rep who agreed with my answer to the young lady shooting in the 8 ball without hitting the cueball

 

[stick8]

game

This week a very strange thing happened during our weekly APA league match. Our player, a young lady who is a Skill Level 5 was playing her match when it came time to shoot the 8 ball.

At this point in the evening, she probably had consumed a few too many glasses of wine. Her and her friends made the startling discovery that it is cheaper to buy their wine by the bottle instead of the glass.

Anyway, she had a bank shot on the 8 ball and proceeded to line up the shot by using her cue to aim at the 8 ball....and then she proceeded to make the 8 ball in the pocket she called. Happy ending...right?

Not so fast Sparky.....of course, I'm sure you have guessed....she shot the eight ball in without the benefit of using the cue ball!! Both teams were howling with laughter and and the poor girl was very embarassed by losing the game in such a stupid manner.

I was not at the match, but heard about it later that night. I asked what the ruling was, and was told that the game was over and she lost.

Was that the correct ruling?? What about the cue ball only foul rule?
Had a foul occured? My opinion is that since her actions were intentional as opposed to accidental, the game was over.

But what if it wasn't the 8 ball? What if she did the same thing with one of her balls. Would the opponent have the option of replacing the ball to its prior position, or would she simply lose her turn? If the ball was replaced, whose turn would it be?

I don't have an APA rule book, and I'm too lazy to look it up anyway.

Please remember to drink responsibly.......

i think you apa players need to contact the AAA for a ruling on that one , some one needs help

 

[frankncali]

Mr Lucky and Flickit

Thanks Mr Lucky and Flickit for your responses.

I have always been under the impression that if balls were moved accidentally and did not hit the cueball then they were just put back even if a ball went in.

While I dont agree witht he ruling it s fairly well known. I think its tough for the APA to get every senario inot the rule book that goes out to the teams. However I have been told that the APA actually has a bigger and more defined rule book in their possession.
Theres 1000s of things that can happen. Tough to forsee them all.

 

[stick8]

game

Thanks Mr Lucky and Flickit for your responses.

I have always been under the impression that if balls were moved accidentally and did not hit the cueball then they were just put back even if a ball went in.

While I dont agree witht he ruling it s fairly well known. I think its tough for the APA to get every senario inot the rule book that goes out to the teams. However I have been told that the APA actually has a bigger and more defined rule book in their possession.
Theres 1000s of things that can happen. Tough to forsee them all.

is there not a rule once you have taken ball out of pockets while opponent is shooting it is a concesson of game du-du. it is a foul and lose of game!!!!! AAA to APA

 

[FLICKit]

What rule you referring to? Please feel free to post a reference to the rulebook (specific page # or link). See post from Da Poet if you need...

 

[frankncali]

is there not a rule once you have taken ball out of pockets while opponent is shooting it is a concesson of game du-du. it is a foul and lose of game!!!!! AAA to APA

Not sure stick8

It should be though!!

Next time you see Bruce Berrong tell him Frank out in California said hello.

 

[stick8]

game

Not sure stick8

It should be though!!

Next time you see Bruce Berrong tell him Frank out in California said hello.

Sure will. he comes up to my room some, just about 45miles, good player. why so much over a lady that just laugh to off anyway, any one knowes it is lose of game!!!!