physics-based draw shot advice

dr_dave said:
Was anybody else surprised by this conclusion? When I was working on the analysis, I had spoken to Bob Jewett on the phone to get his sense on this, and he told me this was consistent with his experiences. Therefore, I am glad the results show it.

Is this consistent with the experience of others? I've tried to test this myself on my table, and I think I believe it, but it still seems counter intuitive to me (even though I know and believe the physics).

Regards,
Dave


I am surprised. I agree with all points, except for #3.

I think the only way you are going to get better draw using near center on a power draw shot, is if your cue is elevated and you are actually shooting a jump/masse shot.

I am curious as to Bumpy Pickle's thoughts on this....as he bested me on the draw shot challenge.
 
okinawa77 said:
I am surprised. I agree with all points, except for #3.

I think the only way you are going to get better draw using near center on a power draw shot, is if your cue is elevated and you are actually shooting a jump/masse shot.

I am curious as to Bumpy Pickle's thoughts on this....as he bested me on the draw shot challenge.
I didn't recommend "near center" for power draw. The conclusion suggests more power draw is possible away from the miscue limit (e.g., at 70%-80% of the miscue limit), but not "near center."

Thank you for the comments. I also hope Bumpy Pickle and others will comment on this and other conclusions.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I just completed a very thorough analysis of draw shot physics. Don't get too excited, now. :p :grin:

The analysis has resulted in what I think are several useful conclusions, most of which agree with my intuition as a player. However, I think some of the conclusions might surprise some people, even experienced players. That's why I wanted to post them here. Please comment on the conclusions, especially the ones that might go against your judgment or intuition as a player. Are there special shots or situations where you would do something different from what is suggested?

Here's the list of conclusion, which can be found at the end of TP B.8 (all of the graphs referenced below are clearly labeled in the analysis if you want to check them out):

  1. Generally, to get more draw, you must hit the cue ball harder and lower (see graphs A and G).
  2. More tip offset does not produce more draw as you approach the miscue limit, so it is prudent to not hit too close to the miscue limit (see graphs A and G).
  3. With larger drag distances and more power, max draw occurs at less than maximum tip offset (see Graphs G, Q, S, and U, and see the data on the previous page), so you get more draw by hitting the CB closer to center!
  4. With a draw shot, for a desired draw distance, a slower cue speed with more tip offset will result in better CB position control than a faster cue speed with less offset (see the slopes of the curves in Graphs A and G at a given draw distance).
  5. Stop shots (draw distance = 0) are much less sensitive to tip offset position than draw shots are (see Graphs G, H, I, N, and O). In other words, CB position is much easier to control with a stop shot, as compared to a draw shot.
  6. For a short stop shot, slower speed offers slightly better control (see the overall slopes of the curves in Graph I). For longer stop shots, faster speed appears to offer slightly better control (see Graphs N and O).
  7. For stun-through (small controlled follow) and stun-back (small controlled draw), a firmer hit closer to center offers better CB control (see Graphs L and M).
  8. It is much easier to control draw distance on a new, slick cloth than it is on a "sticky" cloth, especially with lower-speed shots (see Graph T).

Thank you in advance for sharing your comments, thoughts, and experiences,
Dave
Great stuff as usual Dr. Dave! My experience actually meshes with all your conclusions.
 
dr_dave said:
I didn't recommend "near center" for power draw. The conclusion suggests more power draw is possible away from the miscue limit (e.g., at 70%-80% of the miscue limit), but not "near center."

Thank you for the comments. I also hope Bumpy Pickle and others will comment on this and other conclusions.

Regards,
Dave


My point is...more draw = strike lower on the CB, but not beyond the miscue limit. I believe that the cue elevation (minimized) will play a big factor on how well you can execute a power draw shot striking the CB nearer to the miscue limit.
 
So the conclusion for max draw with long drag distances is; about 80% close to miscue with as flat as possible stroke and good follow through. Correct?
 
All of my thoughts seem to concur with your findings.

The number 3 is one of the more interesting items for me as it confirms to me what I have observed with some players like Corey Deuel who have incredible drawing power. They simply hit the cue ball harder but not necessarily lower than most people and in addition I think the successful power strokers have more accuracy by hitting closer to the center of the cue ball while using draw.

Thanks for your efforts as always.

JoeyA
 
jsp said:
Great stuff as usual Dr. Dave! My experience actually meshes with all your conclusions.
Thanks. Based on the lack of negative responses, it seems the conclusions are consistent with most people's experiences.

Regards,
Dave
 
okinawa77 said:
My point is...more draw = strike lower on the CB

This is true for short shots and for shot with modest draw distance; but for long shots with power, more draw is achieved by hitting away from the miscue limit (about 70%-80% tip offset instead of 100% at the miscue limit).

okinawa77 said:
but not beyond the miscue limit.
This is always true. It is not prudent to get too close to (and definitely not beyond) the miscue limit. You don't get much benefit by creeping closer to the miscue limit. The last 10% of tip offset doesn't buy you much (and it even hurts you for long power draw shots).

okinawa77 said:
I believe that the cue elevation (minimized) will play a big factor on how well you can execute a power draw shot striking the CB nearer to the miscue limit.
It seems many people think slight elevation helps. I don't know the answer, but I plan to look at this soon.

Regards,
Dave
 
JimS said:
So the conclusion for max draw with long drag distances is; about 80% close to miscue
That's a good rule of thumb based on the analysis.
JimS said:
with as flat as possible stroke
I think the jury is still out on this one.

JimS said:
and good follow through. Correct?
Good follow through is a symptom of a good stroke, so I agree here.

Regards,
Dave
 
JoeyA said:
All of my thoughts seem to concur with your findings.
Thanks Joey. I thought more people would disagree with some of the conclusions, but I'm glad there is support from experienced players like yourself.

JoeyA said:
The number 3 is one of the more interesting items for me as it confirms to me what I have observed with some players like Corey Deuel who have incredible drawing power. They simply hit the cue ball harder but not necessarily lower than most people and in addition I think the successful power strokers have more accuracy by hitting closer to the center of the cue ball while using draw.
Thank you for sharing that. I think it is difficult to know exactly what is happening when watching players in person. It is easy to see where they line up on the ball, and it is easy to see how they finish the shot, but it is not always easy to know where they actually hit the ball. I've been hitting some power draw shots the last few days using a Jim Rempe ball. At first, the chalk mark on the ball was higher than I thought it would be, based on how I lined up and how I finished. I tend to drop my elbow (and therefore raise the tip) a little on power shots if I am not concentrating on keeping my elbow still. I need to practice more so the still elbow becomes more natural with power.

JoeyA said:
Thanks for your efforts as always.
You're welcome ... and thanks for the feedback.

Regards,
Dave
 
Dr. Dave:
The physics suggests draw distance control is easier on a slick cloth, as compared to a sticky cloth, assuming the player is equally well adjusted to both conditions.

Is this because on slick cloth the range of draw distance is greater for the same range of draw power (giving finer "granularity" of control)?

pj
chgo
 
Dr. Dave:
...for long shots with power, more draw is achieved by hitting away from the miscue limit (about 70%-80% tip offset instead of 100% at the miscue limit).

Have you theorized why this is true? I'm guessing it has to do with the loss of speed from greater tip offset.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Have you theorized why this is true? I'm guessing it has to do with the loss of speed from greater tip offset.

pj
chgo

I believe you can overspin the cueball causing it to die out after impact of objectball.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
dr_dave said:
The physics suggests draw distance control is easier on a slick cloth, as compared to a sticky cloth, assuming the player is equally well adjusted to both conditions.
Is this because on slick cloth the range of draw distance is greater for the same range of draw power (giving finer "granularity" of control)?
Patrick,

See Graph V on pg. 19 of TP B.8. With "sticky" conditions, you need to use more offset for a given cue speed. There is also more drag on the way to the OB, and the amount of drag spin loss is more sensitive to cue speed and tip offset (since they both affect the speed of the CB). The graph shows what happens if the CB hits the OB a little earlier vs. a little later. The draw distance is more sensitive to the "drag distance" (the original distance between the CB and the OB) with "stick" conditions. I hope that answers your question. It is hard to describe this in simple terms because the physics is fairly complicated. Sorry I can't explain it better. Maybe you can after you better understand the diagram and all of the factors.

Regards,
Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
dr_dave said:
for long shots with power, more draw is achieved by hitting away from the miscue limit (about 70%-80% tip offset instead of 100% at the miscue limit).
Have you theorized why this is true? I'm guessing it has to do with the loss of speed from greater tip offset.
Bingo! The slower cue speed resulting from a larger tip offset gives "drag" more time to reduce the spin. The CB will spin more off the tip with more offset, but the CB will have less speed. See the plots on page 6 of TP B.8 to see how the CB speed and spin change with tip offset. The gain in spin as you approach the miscue limit is too small to make up for the drag spin loss resulting from the slower speed.

I hope that makes sense,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I just completed a very thorough analysis of draw shot physics. Don't get too excited, now. :p :grin:

The analysis has resulted in what I think are several useful conclusions, most of which agree with my intuition as a player. However, I think some of the conclusions might surprise some people, even experienced players. That's why I wanted to post them here. Please comment on the conclusions, especially the ones that might go against your judgment or intuition as a player. Are there special shots or situations where you would do something different from what is suggested?

Here's the list of conclusion, which can be found at the end of TP B.8 (all of the graphs referenced below are clearly labeled in the analysis if you want to check them out):

  1. Generally, to get more draw, you must hit the cue ball harder and lower (see graphs A and G).
  2. More tip offset does not produce more draw as you approach the miscue limit, so it is prudent to not hit too close to the miscue limit (see graphs A and G).
  3. With larger drag distances and more power, max draw occurs at less than maximum tip offset (see Graphs G, Q, S, and U, and see the data on the previous page), so you get more draw by hitting the CB closer to center!
  4. With a draw shot, for a desired draw distance, a slower cue speed with more tip offset will result in better CB position control than a faster cue speed with less offset (see the slopes of the curves in Graphs A and G at a given draw distance).
  5. Stop shots (draw distance = 0) are much less sensitive to tip offset position than draw shots are (see Graphs G, H, I, N, and O). In other words, CB position is much easier to control with a stop shot, as compared to a draw shot.
  6. For a short stop shot, slower speed offers slightly better control (see the overall slopes of the curves in Graph I). For longer stop shots, faster speed appears to offer slightly better control (see Graphs N and O).
  7. For stun-through (small controlled follow) and stun-back (small controlled draw), a firmer hit closer to center offers better CB control (see Graphs L and M).
  8. It is much easier to control draw distance on a new, slick cloth than it is on a "sticky" cloth, especially with lower-speed shots (see Graph T).

Thank you in advance for sharing your comments, thoughts, and experiences,
Dave

2 is the one i have the biggest problem with. to pocket balls with the most accuracy and increase the size of pockets, in general, getting as low as you possibly can on the cb, thereby maximizing the amount of draw you can get with respect to the force you use, is imperative to improve your overall percentage of pocketing balls and getting good position. is 2 saying you should not be very near the miscue limit, thus limiting you in the amount of draw you can get?

i would hazard to say even if there is only a slight return (in the form of more draw) as you go that tad bit lower, it is WELL worth it for the reasons stated above. to me, to consitenetly hit that lowest possible point on the cb without miscuing is one of the things that will define a good stroke and send a player into a "higher order of beings" as henry david thoreau puts it.
 
I feel there is a "sweet spot" when applying draw and it is not the absolute bottom of the cue ball. It seems to be just above what you may call the miscue point where the tip still has full contact ( a clue maybe?) which seems to give the maximum torque, see here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2fJ-3elVTc

I don't believe I struck this as low as possible, I usually don't as that seems to lose some of the torque not to mention accuracy.
 
"The only thing the CB "cares" about is speed, offset, and elevation of the cue at impact."

Interesting. I can place the tip of my cue on the cueball, then stroke forward, and get draw. Speed of cue at impact = 0. Draw = finite. The cue ball must be caring about something else.

A century ago Maurice Daly discussed the importance of cue acceleration. And Hoppe said to shorten the bridge for draw (likely cue accelerating at contact). I have followed their advice and always thought that acceleration was the key to spin. Longer contact time and distance for energy transfer: think like a sailor--fetch and time-contact of an ocean wave.

But I really don't know much physics: took "Physics for Poets" while trying college and remember only two things: A. It sucked, and B. I got a C. Spent my time at 7-11, McGirr's, Julian's, Ames, and some nameless holes instead. The demonstrations there were far more exciting!

So I may be out of my league here.

Nick
 
rackmsuckr said:
I have always struggled with a long or power draw, but I was watching Michell Monk this weekend and noticed how flat her hand was when drawing and she gets exceptional, smooth draw, which I commented on. She also cues so low, it looks like the underside of her cue is laying on the table. I had been using a closed bridge as well, except that my fingers were tented a bit and then I was accelerating through the cueball at a slight angle.

Improving my hand position to basically flat on the table has helped enormously. Thanks Michell. :thumbup:

I also turn my front foot in to almost parallel to the table. It swings my hips sideways so I can follow through to my chest easier and straighter. Not everyone has to go through this step, but for me, it has helped a lot.




Aww...Linda you rock! :o
Thanks for the compliment.....hope to see you soon!!!!

One extra tip that at least works for me....and has worked for others on power shots....aside from a solid bridge...I tighten my wrist slightly on my grip hand.....this enables me to power through a ball with no worries because it's all fundamentals then..

Michell
 
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