Pivoting systems and their relationship to CTE

[Elephant Man]

A good critic has an open mind and tries to examine both sides of the point in question with an unbiased view.[/B] If he can't open his mind to new concepts, he'll never be a good critic.

Has the half ball offset distance and pivot been completely ruled out or is it okay to go back and try to prove that? I am not really concerned with what the offset distance is, more concerned with keeping the process simple. After proper ETC stance positioning based on the angle of the shot, the aim and stroke process should be simple. If it takes 2 DVD's and a book to explain, I get the feeling someone is barking up the wrong tree where ETC aiming is concerned. (Is Spidey ever going to be allowed to come back?)

Below is where I plan to start, right where I left off 5 or so years ago.

1. Aim through center of OB to center of pocket to get your CONTACT POINT. Remember that point precisely, keep an eye on that point, use a ghost ball, or whatever. This is the human/brain/hand to eye part of the process that no magic or voodoo can replace. As with every pool shot or system, the more accurate you visualize the contact point, the more accurate your shot.

2. Walk behind the CB and align your stance with the EDGE of the CB to the CENTER of the CONTACT POINT. Try setting stance with both edges of the CB if need be, one will be obviously wrong, less obvious the straighter the shot, either side will work for straight in.

3. Aim though CENTER of CB to EDGE of OB. If the CONTACT POINT of the OB is always 6 o'clock and the pocket of the object ball is always 12 o'clock then the EDGE will always be either 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock. Experiment with aiming at both the 3 and 9 o'clock EDGE.

4. Once you choose the correct EDGE of the OB to aim at through the center of the CB, hold that line and offset the entire cue parallel to one side of the CB. Again, one direction will be obviously wrong even before the pivot.

5. Pivot cue to CENTER of CB and fire away. Pivot point is 2/3 the distance between the CB and the OB. Pivot method is up to you. If your natural bridge is 10" and you plan to pivot at your bridge, then the optimum CB to OB distance to leave yourself is 15". A 6 foot CB to OB distance would be a pivot point of 4 feet, so maybe plant rear hand at hip and slide tip to center. Or you can air pivot approximately as close as you can. The closer you were at setting up steps 1 and 2, the less precise the pivot can be.

Recap:

1. CENTER OB to CENTER Pocket to find CONTACT POINT.
2. Set stance line at EDGE of CB to CONTACT POINT of the OB.
3. Aim CENTER CB to EDGE (3 or 9) of OB
4. Offset CUE a half ball parallel to outside EDGE of CB
5. Pivot at 2/3 CB to OB distance to center CB and stroke.

Even as a sucky player, this gets me close on every shot. A good player with a good eye and good mechanics should do much better. I am open to modifying this working model but think it is close. Maybe the cue offset or pivot point will become more precise but this should be close. Where you go with English and leave is up to you but this will make balls if you try it. I am sure there is a method for determining which edge to align to, direction to offset and pivot based on angle of shot but I haven't took note. Pretty SIMPLE really once you do it a few times. Let me know what you think.

 

[Vorpal Cue]

I was browsing through the Salix and Edge-X methods last night and your system sounds very similar. Have you looked at them? I didn't study them in great detail but he may have some info that you can use.

 

[Elephant Man]

I was browsing through the Salix and Edge-X methods last night and your system sounds very similar. Have you looked at them? I didn't study them in great detail but he may have some info that you can use.

Never heard of it but will look into it. Thanks.

So will you try the procedure I posted?

 

[Vorpal Cue]

I misread your first stamen that you use the CP on the OB. His methods use a point on the CB aimed at the pocket to get things started. He does use a parallel shift bridge method in one his systems with a pivot I believe.

I'm still trying to sand the warts off my system and I'm reluctant to try different systems that force a new bridge length and etc. I'll get in some practice later and when I get mine tuned up I'll try yours for a bit.

 

[Elephant Man]

I misread your first stamen that you use the CP on the OB. His methods use a point on the CB aimed at the pocket to get things started. He does use a parallel shift bridge method in one his systems with a pivot I believe.

I'm still trying to sand the warts off my system and I'm reluctant to try different systems that force a new bridge length and etc. I'll get in some practice later and when I get mine tuned up I'll try yours for a bit.

Your bridge location doesn't have to change, only the pivot point changes. Also, it's not really my system. I think it actually IS the CTE people are looking for and still others are trying to complicate and change...

 

[Vorpal Cue]

Your bridge location doesn't have to change, only the pivot point changes. Also, it's not really my system. I think it actually IS the CTE people are looking for and still others are trying to change...

I'll try setting up some 15, 30 and 45 shots with it and see what happens. Have you tried the technique with thin and very thin shots? Do you think they need special consideration as in a different pivot location on the stick? I had to reduce the pivot amount with my method to a half tip when shooting at the last eighth of the OB. Just wondering if your method needs some adjustments there as well.

Your method starts out using a subjective observation though, you're estimating where the contact point is located. I use a similar method of finding the CP but only to use as a selection of visuals. Once the visual to use is determined, the CP discarded. As far as I know, CTE doesn't consider the contact point on the OB.

 

[Elephant Man]

I'll try setting up some 15, 30 and 45 shots with it and see what happens. Have you tried the technique with thin and very thin shots? Do you think they need special consideration as in a different pivot location on the stick? I had to reduce the pivot amount with my method to a half tip when shooting at the last eighth of the OB. Just wondering if your method needs some adjustments there as well.

Yes. Works thick through thin. No special consideration other than choosing to align at either 3 or 9 o'clock and where to pivot (always 2/3 CB to OB distance). Bridge where comfortable, doesn't matter where you bridge, it's only convenient if pivot point happens to be at bridge. Always 1/2 ball offset and pivot, no adjustments required to make the shot, only adjust for leave but don't worry about that until you see that it works, and it does.

 

[stan shuffett]

Your bridge location doesn't have to change, only the pivot point changes. Also, it's not really my system. I think it actually IS the CTE people are looking for and still others are trying to complicate and change...

What this CTE person has been looking for is:
What to see and align to.

My toughest challenge of all has been defining what to see....the alignment end of it is just align the cue to what is seen.

CTE is really that simple.

Pivoting has been a means to align to an inexplicable visual line.....Once the line is defined, pivoting becomes less of a vehicle to get to that line. Having said that....pivoting is necessary training because it facilitates a two stage visual sequence training for one's vision.

Stan Shuffett

 

[Elephant Man]

What this CTE person has been looking for is:
What to see and align to.

My toughest challenge of all has been defining what to see....the alignment end of it is just align the cue to what is seen.

CTE is really that simple.

Pivoting has been a means to align to an inexplicable visual line.....Once the line is defined, pivoting becomes less of a vehicle to get to that line. Having said that....pivoting is necessary training because it facilitates a two stage visual sequence training for one's vision.

Stan Shuffett

With this statement I couldn't agree more.

As far as the inexplicable line, I think it was misinterpreted years ago when CTE proponents said you did not need to know where the pocket is to make the shot. Which is true when it comes time to stroke, but not true when lining up stance. Still pretty easy because pockets don't change locations and every player knows where they are.

The pocket is always at 12 o'clock to the OB then the contact point on the OB is always 6 o'clock. This makes the edges of the OB always 3 and 9 o'clock. Same goes for CB... CB contact point 12 o'clock to OB 6 o'clock is center to center. CB offset either 3 or 9 and pivot back to 6 o'clock which is center.

With half ball parallel offset the pivot point is about 2/3 CB to OB distance. With the 1/2 tip offset I have not experimented enough to know where the pivot point is, but I think you have.

 

[stan shuffett]

With this statement I couldn't agree more.

As far as the inexplicable line, I think it was misinterpreted years ago when CTE proponents said you did not need to know where the pocket is to make the shot. Which is true when it comes time to stroke, but not true when lining up stance. Still pretty easy because pockets don't change locations and every player knows where they are.

The pocket is always at 12 o'clock to the OB then the contact point on the OB is always 6 o'clock. This makes the edges of the OB always 3 and 9 o'clock. Same goes for CB... CB contact point 12 o'clock to OB 6 o'clock is center to center. CB offset either 3 or 9 and pivot back to 6 o'clock which is center.

With half ball parallel offset the pivot point is about 2/3 CB to OB distance. With the 1/2 tip offset I have not experimented enough to know where the pivot point is, but I think you have.

I have been playing for 58 years and I do not know where center pockets are located. I can blind up the pockets really well with my curtain system and point a Laser line under the sliver of space for the curtain that is available......forget about it....I do not hit center pocket and no one else does either. Spider would agree as he was put to the test as well.
I even miss the entire opening from time to time.

Stan Shuffett

 

[Elephant Man]

I have been playing for 58 years and I do not know where center pockets are located. I can blind up the pockets really well with my curtain system and point a Laser line under the sliver of space for the curtain that is available......forget about it....I do not hit center pocket and no one else does either. Spider would agree as he was put to the test as well.
I even miss the entire opening from time to time.

Stan Shuffett

But you do have to "choose" a pocket before you shoot. "Choosing" a pocket in relation to the CB/OB is how you get into your stance. Once down on the CB with proper stance I can see how the rest becomes second nature...

 

[stan shuffett]

But you do have to "choose" a pocket before you shoot. "Choosing" a pocket in relation to the CB/OB is how you get into your stance. Once down on the CB with proper stance I can see how the rest becomes second nature...

If I am blinded to pockets, the fact that I on a regulation table means that right angles sre specifically placed for pocketing. In this scenario I am almost always aware of where the right angles are but never aware of the heart of any of the blinded right angles.

If I am playing, I almost always never line up the OB to the pocket as if in GET BEHIND THE OB AND LINE IT UP. I know where the pocket is but not its perfect center for an overcut line. CTE does that for me.......

Stan Shuffett

 

[Elephant Man]

Well then it looks like I got some learning to do. Halfway there I guess. Start and the back and work my way forward...

 

[Dan White]

Well then it looks like I got some learning to do. Halfway there I guess. Start and the back and work my way forward...

Elephant Man -- you've touched on the one issue that got Rick English! banned. He couldn't let go of the idea the people like Stan have been saying things like this for 20 years without backing it up with anything. Logically, you have identified the first step in your sequence as finding the contact point. Stan won't admit to doing that as that would invalidate his system as being "objective," which separates it from every other aiming system. Lacking any reasonable explanation from Stan or his supporters, we are left to assume they are doing it by feel like the rest of us.

I am eager to be proven wrong. Heck, I'd even try such a system, but after all this time I don't expect any evidence to be provided, not even in Stan's book to be published sometime this decade.

Maybe Lamas or Vorpal has figured out how to do it, but it hasn't been explained by them, either.

BTW, if you keep pushing the idea that knowledge of the pocket and cp is necessary, you will eventually be cast out!

 

[Elephant Man]

Elephant Man -- you've touched on the one issue that got Rick English! banned. He couldn't let go of the idea the people like Stan have been saying things like this for 20 years without backing it up with anything. Logically, you have identified the first step in your sequence as finding the contact point. Stan won't admit to doing that as that would invalidate his system as being "objective," which separates it from every other aiming system. Lacking any reasonable explanation from Stan or his supporters, we are left to assume they are doing it by feel like the rest of us.

I am eager to be proven wrong. Heck, I'd even try such a system, but after all this time I don't expect any evidence to be provided, not even in Stan's book to be published sometime this decade.

Maybe Lamas or Vorpal has figured out how to do it, but it hasn't been explained by them, either.

BTW, if you keep pushing the idea that knowledge of the pocket and cp is necessary, you will eventually be cast out!

Well that is sincerely too bad as I just want to learn.

Is "being objective" what got Spidey cast out? Because he basically agreed that what I said was accurate about the whole "clock" to identify the CP/pocket/edges etc... I didn't talk about it much 6 years ago because someone was supposed to spill the beans in a simple tell all video.

 

[Dan White]

Well that is sincerely too bad as I just want to learn.

Is "being objective" what got Spidey cast out? Because he basically agreed that what I said was accurate about the whole "clock" to identify the CP/pocket/edges etc... I didn't talk about it much 6 years ago because someone was supposed to spill the beans in a simple tell all video.

Well I should be more clear. By "cast out" I mean you will eventually be labeled a "denier" as a non-believer in the CTE cult, and that's what it is unless someone simply shows some real evidence for what they claim.

Spidey probably has a temporary ban. He can be as obnoxious as he pleases and it doesn't seem to matter. It is usually when he enters a thread that it is bound to be locked soon after.

Also, I didn't follow what you were discussing with him so I can't comment.

 

[LAMas]

I like the explanation of how to find the contact point From above the OB, look at the point that is closest to the pocket/target - that is 12:00 Oclock and the contact point is 6:00 Oclock.

CTE with tip offset, bridge distance and pivot systems are useful for those that can't find the 6:00 Oclock point on the OB - I presume for it is as useful as recognizing the cut angle of the shot.

For those that can aim the cue from center CB to the spot (6:00 Oclock) for the shot at hand:

Now the OB will appear smaller than the CB due to foreshortening. That said, parallel shift the shaft/cue until you are now aimed at the center of the OB. you will be to the side of the center of the CB because of the parallel shift..

The shift will be a smaller distance for OB that are farther away and larger when the OB is close for it appear to be larger

Now pivot at the bridge until the tip is at the center of the CB and shoot "center ball".

Here is the shooters view:



and from the shooters view:

Here is the geometric diagram of this system from above the table.



Have fun

 

[Elephant Man]

I like the explanation of how to find the contact point From above the OB, look at the point that is closest to the pocket/target - that is 12:00 Oclock and the contact point is 6:00 Oclock.

CTE with tip offset, bridge distance and pivot systems are useful for those that can't find the 6:00 Oclock point on the OB - I presume for it is as useful as recognizing the cut angle of the shot.

For those that can aim the cue from center CB to the spot (6:00 Oclock) for the shot at hand:

Now the OB will appear smaller than the CB due to foreshortening. That said, parallel shift the shaft/cue until you are now aimed at the center of the OB. you will be to the side of the center of the CB because of the parallel shift..

The shift will be a smaller distance for OB that are farther away and larger when the OB is close for it appear to be larger

Now pivot at the bridge until the tip is at the center of the CB and shoot "center ball".

Here is the shooters view:

View attachment 444175

and from the shooters view:

Here is the geometric diagram of this system from above the table.

View attachment 444174

Have fun

Great post and diagrams.

I have used exactly that method in the past and moved on to what I posted earlier. It's been a while since I tried it and will go shoot a few in a minute. Looks like we are on the same page though. Glad to see someone else in the same ballpark. Do you vary your pivot point based on distance between CB and OB?

 

[Vorpal Cue]

Yes. Works thick through thin. No special consideration other than choosing to align at either 3 or 9 o'clock and where to pivot (always 2/3 CB to OB distance). Bridge where comfortable, doesn't matter where you bridge, it's only convenient if pivot point happens to be at bridge. Always 1/2 ball offset and pivot, no adjustments required to make the shot, only adjust for leave but don't worry about that until you see that it works, and it does.

Set up 5 shots each and gave it a whirl. OB to pocket distance about 1 1/2 to 2 diamonds. CB a diamond to 1 1/2 diamond from OB. Just trying to get the hang of it and using the KISS approach. Simple shots first. All shots were left cuts into a 4" corner pocket.

0-15* The first two went in but didn't hit the center. Third ball hit center pocket. Must have been a bad view of the CP but the 4th rattled the pocket and didn't drop. 5th ball hit the heart again.

It took a little work on the eyeballs to use the CB edge to CP as an aiming line. It's a new way of looking at the balls and I had to adjust 'something' to visualize it. The pivoting was a bit different too and could have been responsible for the miss on #4. First impression is that something is working here, balls are falling.

15-30* First one rattled, second went clean, third off by 1/8 diamond. I switched my aiming to a different approach. I kept tip pointed at the CP when I found it and used the edge of the stick to align the CB edge. 4 and 5 dropped clean. I lowered my vision on shots 4 and 5 and didn't look at the OB after I got the line through CCB. They were just fuzzy balls in the distance. Still dropped 'em. Only subjectivity I see is in acquiring the CP.

30-45* First one I dogged it somehow too thick. Second went but almost too thin. Third a miss, too thin. 4 and 5 dropped but still on the thin side. Didn't look at the OB again on #5 but it took the same path as #4.

>45* All shots at 1/2 - 1 diamond from pocket, 1/8" - 1/2" from rail, CB 2 diamonds away from OB for all shots.

First @ 1/8", 1/2 diamond - went in slick as snot. It surprised me because I was expecting problems using the same pivot point on the cue stick.

Second @ 1/2", 1 diamond - caught the rail a 'little' before the pocket but still dropped.

Third @ 1/4" 1 diamond - tried this 3 times and was always too thin on it. ???? Moved on.

Fourth @ 1/2", 1 diamond - made the cut less severe than #2, it went clean. No peeking at the OB this time. Went in first try.

Fifth @ 1/8 " 1 diamond - lessened the cut angle again and shot blind. Went in first try again.


You're up to something, I can make balls using your method with minimal explanation. I'm going to play around with your pivoting method with the cue stick too. I may use your steering wheel on my little beast and see how she handles the road.

 

[Elephant Man]

Nice Vorpal and thanks for trying it out. Usually when I miss a shot it is from choosing the wrong edge (3 or 9) because they both are close but my lying eye is too bad to tell which one is correct. When I repeat the shot using the opposite edge the ball usually drops. Hoping I or someone can determine which edge to systematically choose on the close shots. Thanks again I am off to give LAMas variation a whirl again.