Playing By Feel vs. By Calculation?

[Zphix]

Yo guys, I noticed something after playing last night.

In my match, I must've played at least 20 bank shots across 5 matches, and I made nearly every bank (and at least half were not easy, or dead banks) and these were all made by feel.

Now, I also missed a couple banks, and these were on the 8 ball where I calculated the aim point, etc. and I missed 3 of them in a row: the lady I played kept getting incredible leaves so all I had were either banks, or kicks.

Anyway, it got me thinking: when you've done something enough times - is it better to play by feel and instinct rather than calculation because it seemed to me that I made nearly all my "by feel" banks, and missed my "by calculation" bank shots.

Let me re-iterate though! I'm only asking this question for areas where you've done something enough times... I've practiced banking enough to not have to calculate every bank every time and I can usually make them based on a quick glance. I cannot do this same thing for position or kicks, etc.

Just an observation I've made - what do you guys think?

 

[tpoppa]

If I look down over a bank shot and I feel good about it I shoot it. If I don't, then I'll calculate.

I think after enough repitions of the same shot the calc becomes less necessary. YMMV

 

[sfleinen]

Yo guys, I noticed something after playing last night.

In my match, I must've played at least 20 bank shots across 5 matches, and I made nearly every bank (and at least half were not easy, or dead banks) and these were all made by feel.

Now, I also missed a couple banks, and these were on the 8 ball where I calculated the aim point, etc. and I missed 3 of them in a row: the lady I played kept getting incredible leaves so all I had were either banks, or kicks.

Anyway, it got me thinking: when you've done something enough times - is it better to play by feel and instinct rather than calculation because it seemed to me that I made nearly all my "by feel" banks, and missed my "by calculation" bank shots.

Let me re-iterate though! I'm only asking this question for areas where you've done something enough times... I've practiced banking enough to not have to calculate every bank every time and I can usually make them based on a quick glance. I cannot do this same thing for position or kicks, etc.

Just an observation I've made - what do you guys think?

You're going to hear from both sides of the fence on this, and it's going to be an interesting read, for sure.

I'm on the feel side, because I'm a firm believer in the subconscious. I wrote an article on this a while back, and hopefully it interests you:

"Leveraging your subconscious (read: don't let your conscious get in the way!)"
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=216564

I feel that you can only favor/use your conscious mind for a certain period of time, before "drift" kicks in. Meanwhile, your subconscious is always active. Additionally, your subconscious is a massive storehouse of "execution," while your conscious is like that backseat driver that always gets in the way. You know what I'm referring to with the latter -- it's very easy to analyze something to death, or else analyze your way out of a proper solution.

Don't get me wrong -- use the conscious mind to analyze patterns and what to do with the cue ball. But as soon as you bend down, put a muzzle on that backseat driver (conscious) -- and let your subconscious do what it knows how to do -- retrieve those execution directions and replay them.

Hope this helps!
-Sean

 

[Banks]

Feel. Too much depends on speed, angle, cut direction, etc. I mean, you can "calculate" that maybe you need a little top to shorten up the angle a half diamond or something, but any time I see somebody using that intersecting stick method, I want to lay a wager on it. There are tricks to making some of them a bit easier, but too many variables, imo, to say you can calculate them better.

 

[trinacria]

you gotta do both. when its the last rack witht the game on the line for a tourney or cash your feel will go out the window. unless ur in dead stroke.

 

[macguy]

Yo guys, I noticed something after playing last night.

In my match, I must've played at least 20 bank shots across 5 matches, and I made nearly every bank (and at least half were not easy, or dead banks) and these were all made by feel.

Now, I also missed a couple banks, and these were on the 8 ball where I calculated the aim point, etc. and I missed 3 of them in a row: the lady I played kept getting incredible leaves so all I had were either banks, or kicks.

Anyway, it got me thinking: when you've done something enough times - is it better to play by feel and instinct rather than calculation because it seemed to me that I made nearly all my "by feel" banks, and missed my "by calculation" bank shots.

Let me re-iterate though! I'm only asking this question for areas where you've done something enough times... I've practiced banking enough to not have to calculate every bank every time and I can usually make them based on a quick glance. I cannot do this same thing for position or kicks, etc.

Just an observation I've made - what do you guys think?

You are right at a point you have to trust yourself. When you try to play robotic it usually does not work.

It may work for a short time but you can't really play like that, it is only good when training. Then when you play for real you have to let it happen. Here is where that can break down though. If you are gambling and have no time limits you can afford to throw away games getting loose.

In a tournament or on league it can be hard to play loose. You are playing sudden death all the time. You will, weather you like it or not find yourself taking extra time and even over pressuring yourself to not do anything wrong.

I have seen top money players, guys who bet thousands, actually dog it in tournament play. I remember a really top money player playing Steve Cook in a tournament. Steve scratched and the player tried to line up a combo on the 9 that he missed.

When he came over someone asked him what the hell was he doing why didn't he just run out. It was so funny what he said, He said "If you are in my boots, you shoot the combo". He was scared to death he would not be able to get out.

 

[Banks]

As far as banking goes, this may be a bit better..

Thread on banking

Post on aiming

 

[Jaden]

It took me at least a decade...

Yo guys, I noticed something after playing last night.

In my match, I must've played at least 20 bank shots across 5 matches, and I made nearly every bank (and at least half were not easy, or dead banks) and these were all made by feel.

Now, I also missed a couple banks, and these were on the 8 ball where I calculated the aim point, etc. and I missed 3 of them in a row: the lady I played kept getting incredible leaves so all I had were either banks, or kicks.

Anyway, it got me thinking: when you've done something enough times - is it better to play by feel and instinct rather than calculation because it seemed to me that I made nearly all my "by feel" banks, and missed my "by calculation" bank shots.

Let me re-iterate though! I'm only asking this question for areas where you've done something enough times... I've practiced banking enough to not have to calculate every bank every time and I can usually make them based on a quick glance. I cannot do this same thing for position or kicks, etc.

Just an observation I've made - what do you guys think?

It took me a decade to get to where I could play purposefully at the same level I could play by feel at times.

The difference is it is purposeful. Which means EVERY time I'm focusing on the right things I can do it.

Playing by feel, when you start doing things wrong, you don't know why you're messing up and your consistency will suffer as a result.

Also, banks aren't a good indication for the differences between feel and purposeful conscious play because there is more feel in banks than any shot regardless of what methods you use.

There are too many factors for feel to NOT be involved in banks. Banks are much more sensitive to speed and spin than other shots. They require a feel for the speed and good solid fundamentals to successfully consciously do them.

I will say that I am much more consistent with banks and kicks when I do them purposefully (now that I know how) even though aiming by feel I can often play at a slightly higher level.

Methods for purposefully playing banks and kicks differ but when angle in angle out is used the biggest mistake people make is aiming through center ball.

You have to aim through the contact point and then parallel shift to center ball for the ball that is contacting the rail.

The CP is easy to find, it is always the point on the ball that is parallel to the rail.

This is especially apparent when aiming rail first kick shots for balls that are close to the rail but an obstructing ball is in the direct path, or you want to go rail first to get easier shape on the next ball.

Jaden

 

[Pidge]

As a starting point, or for the absolute beginner there is no better way than knowing how to calculate a bank, kick, or pot. But as you play more, feel takes over.

Watch the best 3 cushion players play. You can see them all figuring out the math in their heads and pointing the cues along tracks to find the right numbers, but they have to use feel because of the different tables...some require extra side spin, some require a firmer hit to make the CB stay true to the track they worked out.

So in a nutshell, calculating is ok as a base, but feel will guide you in from there.

 

[Jaden]

starting a new thread on banks and kicks..

I'm about to start a new thread on banks and kicks with an illustration showcasing the most common mistake that is made in trying to calculate kicks and banks.

Jaden

 

[MitchAlsup]

When you have an intuition about the shot; go with the flow.
When you don't; think the physics of the problem through.

 

[Jaden]

depending on the desired level of a beginner...

As a starting point, or for the absolute beginner there is no better way than knowing how to calculate a bank, kick, or pot. But as you play more, feel takes over.

Watch the best 3 cushion players play. You can see them all figuring out the math in their heads and pointing the cues along tracks to find the right numbers, but they have to use feel because of the different tables...some require extra side spin, some require a firmer hit to make the CB stay true to the track they worked out.

So in a nutshell, calculating is ok as a base, but feel will guide you in from there.

Unless a beginner just wants to be a banger for life, they have no business trying to make banks at all with anything EXCEPT feel and shouldn't be practicing banks yet.

They should be concentrating on perfecting a consistent, straight stroke and go from there.

Jaden

 

[Banks]

Unless a beginner just wants to be a banger for life, they have no business trying to make banks at all with anything EXCEPT feel and shouldn't be practicing banks yet.

They should be concentrating on perfecting a consistent, straight stroke and go from there.

Jaden

Nothing wrong with practicing banking at any time. The problem people have with doing anything is paying attention to what they're doing. I probably learned more about how the balls interacted, including with the rails, by banking, than I did by shooting em right in the pockets. If somebody's not using some feel in a bank, they're doing it wrong, imo. One of these days I'll have a straight stroke.. maybe. Ah, hell, who am I kidding.

 

[madman1nonly]

Have to agree with this. Take the spot on the wall shot as an example. Correctly applied, you're supposed to identify that spot for each new table you step to, as though everyone has the luxury of doing that every time they play. Still, without that luxury, knowing that the spot is going to roughly be on the line from the corner pocket to the cross-table second diamond has gotten me out of some tough spots just by having a reference point to build a feel shot from.

I can't never find the "Spot".............:smile::smile:

 

[book collector]

Feel is great until you don't play for a long time.
The first thing to go is ball speed (cueball and object ball } , then "feel" on banks kicks spin etc.
I do think a person who knows systems can come back faster after a long layoff.
There are no "perfect systems" that I have seen , they all rely on some feel , but they do get you in the ballpark pretty quick.

 

[nobcitypool]

I think you're asking the wrong question. The real question should be why you had to play that many bank shots unless you were playing one pocket? I think the right question you need to be asking is how to control your cb better so you're not left with Bank shots as your best alternative?

 

[Sofla]

Whether you get the line for a bank from feel (just looking, I would call it), or a system, you still end up needing the feel because of all the factors already mentioned. Hit it too hard and it will come up short of the pocketing line, hit it too soft, and it will come long of the pocketing line. That is also true when you use side to intentionally lengthen out or shorten a line as necessary. How much side, and how hard?

Unless you are dialed into and feel the right amount of speed and English (if you're using that out of necessity or preference for the bank), neither the feel or calculation method will pocket the bank except occasionally, if you happen to get it right.

Whether the OB hits the rail rolling or skidding may also change the line off the rail, so merely changing how close the OB is to the rail even on an identical line to another bank may require an adjustment of speed of stroke or compensatory English for what looks like an identical shot.

So in a way, it's a false dichotomy, because even systems or calculations still rely on how you feel the speed of the stroke to make it happen as planned.

Personally, I count diamonds and get a close reference line that way, which I usually have to parallel over to and through the center of the OB from, or find the off table spot the reference line leads to and then aim the bank through that. But a friend I play does none of that, and banks just as well as I do (which is pretty good). Freddie the Beard (may he rest in peace) shows many reference lines to accomplish the kind of trick banks that don't go, but do go, if you know and practice that system.

 

[kevpull]

Feel

Feel is the way to go.

 

[Zphix]

So, it sounds like feel is the way to go.... on banks and kicks anyway.

I usually look at the track line close to where the OB is and go from there. I usually use English and speed to adjust for banks and I haven't been missing many banks lately (except table-length banks... those are my Achilles tendon as far as banks go).

Completely off topic but, I noticed playing at my buddies house tonight that my stroke, and ball control are worlds better than they were a few weeks ago. So, to everyone who has helped me step my game up - thank you =)

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2

 

[336Robin]

Feel and Calculation...same thing

So, it sounds like feel is the way to go.... on banks and kicks anyway.

I usually look at the track line close to where the OB is and go from there. I usually use English and speed to adjust for banks and I haven't been missing many banks lately (except table-length banks... those are my Achilles tendon as far as banks go).

Completely off topic but, I noticed playing at my buddies house tonight that my stroke, and ball control are worlds better than they were a few weeks ago. So, to everyone who has helped me step my game up - thank you =)

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2

Feel and Calculation are the same thing. One you immediately upon sight know what to do and the other you haven't seen a way to make the shot go so you figure aka calculate it out some way. Once you figure out a way the reasoning is sound and now you feel your way through it.

Plotting lines for banks gets you to the geometry part of a bank shot but you know you that if you put too much pressure on a bank shot the angle changes which brings in feel.

It works the same for an object ball. You cant see through to the other side of the object ball opposite to where you are gazing from, so really how do you really know if youre going to make the shot so it takes feel to pot a regular shot in which you don't see the shot line perfectly. How in the world do you place a round object into a hole with squared off edges? Depth perception. Its because you aren't placing a contact point in the pocket you are placing a 2 and 1/4 inch round ball. You cant see the outer side of the ball how thick it is so you have to approximate and that approximation is a feel adjustment and calculation. Just my opinion but I think one is the same as the other its just one you know more by sight and the other you haven't learned to know it by sight just yet.