I'm a intermediate player and i have always played position by "feel".. I wanted to know if there is some sort of systematic way to know where your cue ball is going. I heard of buddy halls clock system but a friend told me it's very very basic. Can anyone shine some sort of light on this subject. any recommendations are welcome whether it's a book, video, or personal knowlwedge. I've just learned the plus 5 system for kicking and it works great for two rails and my friend said you can use it for playing positon as well but i don't understand what he means?
Playing precision postion using diamonds or someting else??
- Thread starter clint3612
- Start date
I think a very good beginning is really getting to know your tangent line. A lot of players think they know exactly what path the cue ball will take off the object ball, but they are mistaken, because they routinely use draw on certain shots, follow on others.
Hit common shots with straight center ball, and observe the ball path. Then, hit it with follow, then with draw, then with outside english, then with inside english.
I think the diamonds are useful for target points when going multiple rails, plus, there are a few systems out there that show how one tip of draw changes the tangent line by so many diamonds, etc.. Little Joe has two DVDs out on kicking and position play. You might want to check them out..
Russ
Hit common shots with straight center ball, and observe the ball path. Then, hit it with follow, then with draw, then with outside english, then with inside english.
I think the diamonds are useful for target points when going multiple rails, plus, there are a few systems out there that show how one tip of draw changes the tangent line by so many diamonds, etc.. Little Joe has two DVDs out on kicking and position play. You might want to check them out..
Russ
I think this comes from knowing many shots and their particular shapes, plus how to adjust that shape (within limits). To that end there are two good books, The Pro Book by Bob Henning and 99 Critical Shots by Ray Martin. Both list "standard" shots and derivitives. Learn these and you'll have your answer.
Dave
Dave
If you are serious about learning how to play better position, you need to give Lil Joe Villapondo's Vol II DVD a viewing. Forget about playing by "feel". There is a systematic method available to you if you are willing to learn it.
Joe will teach you simple methods to predict where the CB will go after contact and how to manipulate the CB off that line as needed. Your position play is destined to improve if you give it a try.
www.pooliq.net
Joe will teach you simple methods to predict where the CB will go after contact and how to manipulate the CB off that line as needed. Your position play is destined to improve if you give it a try.
www.pooliq.net
Yes, and most "systems" are based on it.
Just to clarify here: "Center ball" usually doesn't produce a "stop shot", which is what you need in order to carom off the object ball along the tangent line. I think it communicates more and is more accurate to say "Hit shots with a stun/stop hit" than to say "use a center ball hit".
pj
chgo
One guy out of how many that play pool? You need to go back to pool school if you don't think that systems are favorable in improving your game. I guess you don't get into too many matches whereas a safety game in is play? Kicking systems and using the diamond system for position are imperative in any game of billiards you play. Try banking by feel after taking a year off! If you know the systems, the banks and systems never change, They are there forever, "feel" isn't.td873 said:
clint3612 said:
In my experience, there has been a progression like this from when I began to how I play now:
Large area position (quadrents basically) -> Correct "side of the ball" position (which side of the next ball do you need to be on to get to the 3rd ball) -> Preserving angles position (playing position into line to obtain specific angles) -> Pin-point position (playing the cue ball to specific locations)
Sending the cue ball down the tangent line is the most beneficial skill to improving position and moving through these stages.
Here's a link:http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html
I'd recommend the 90 Degree Rule articles first, followed by the 30 Degree Rule...
While Ceulemans clearly counts diamonds now -- just watch him line up shots -- he is on record as saying that he won his first world championship without knowing any systems. That was about 40 years ago.DaveK said:
I assume you meant either the "corner five" or the "plus 2" system. Both of them are explained in the second section of Byrne's "Standard Book of Pool and Billiards." The first requires you to hit a side cushion first and the second requires you to hit an end cushion first.clint3612 said:
Most of the time those systems are not useful for position play because you will be hitting 0 or 1 cushions. Also, those systems require running english and that's often not what you want to use. So, on a small percentage of shots, the standard (carom) diamond systems will help play position off an object ball.
Here's an example of where you might use one. An object ball is close to the corner pocket and nearly on the end rail. The cue ball is sitting for about a 30-degree cut into that pocket. With outside draw, it will come back to the side cushion you are standing by and then maybe to the other end rail. If you can control where the cue ball hits on the second cushion, the corner-5 system tells you where the cue ball should hit on the fourth cushion (the side rail opposite where you are standing).
The system does not tell you how much draw and side spin to use to get to the right place on the second cushion.
(If you are having trouble imagining the position described above, try drawing it out on a table diagram. I think it is unambiguous.)
gotta chime in here
I can tell you from first hand and recent information that there isn't a thing wrong with Thomas' safety game except he is too darned persistent with it for my taste!
I do strongly recommend lil' Joe's video's though, one is sitting in my DVD player as I type. They definitely helped me getting them now but they would have cut years off my learning curve had I had them starting out.
Hu
I can tell you from first hand and recent information that there isn't a thing wrong with Thomas' safety game except he is too darned persistent with it for my taste!
I do strongly recommend lil' Joe's video's though, one is sitting in my DVD player as I type. They definitely helped me getting them now but they would have cut years off my learning curve had I had them starting out.
Hu
klockdoc said:
Actually, as a BCA instructor, I endorse learining by systems but, as I mentioned above, I don't encourage using them in play.klockdoc said:
Your argument here is a logical fallacy. You assume that if you take time off from pool, you will perfectly remember how your "system" works, but that you will have no "feel." In fact the opposite is most likely true - players that take time off develop their feel much faster and would have to relearn a system.klockdoc said:
Lastly, without "feel" you can't excel at any pocket billiards sport, since you must be able to "feel" where to hit the cue ball, how hard to hit it, and where to hit the object ball in order to run out consistently. No "system" - or pool school on systems - will do that.
-td
PS: as an experiment, if you come to Texas, we can see who get's 3 fouled first, you can use any system you can "remember" while playing
Props to you as well Hu. I dropped some greenies on ya, but you're full anywayShootingArts said:I can tell you from first hand and recent information that there isn't a thing wrong with Thomas' safety game except he is too darned persistent with it for my taste!
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td873 said:Actually, as a BCA instructor, I endorse learining by systems but, as I mentioned above, I don't encourage using them in play.
Your argument here is a logical fallacy. You assume that if you take time off from pool, you will perfectly remember how your "system" works, but that you will have no "feel." In fact the opposite is most likely true - players that take time off develop their feel much faster and would have to relearn a system.
Lastly, without "feel" you can't excel at any pocket billiards sport, since you must be able to "feel" where to hit the cue ball, how hard to hit it, and where to hit the object ball in order to run out consistently. No "system" - or pool school on systems - will do that.
-td
PS: as an experiment, if you come to Texas, we can see who get's 3 fouled first, you can use any system you can "remember" while playing
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You just lowered my opinion of instructors ( if that is what you actually are), if that is your theory. How can a person that takes their time off improve their "feel"? Feel is derived by practice, not taking time off! Systems do not change. They are improved on by feel! When you use a system to get postion, granted, you have to expand on that system and practice and "feel" will be two of the factors that will get you there.
Age, eye sight, lack of practice will affect the game and throw your game off. Systerms do not change. And are not fogotten as quickly as feel is.
The systems that you were talking about was directed at "position play" not aiming. So don't bring that into play here. I am not arguing that point.
How would you have to re-learn a system that is memorized?
I think you are confusing systems for position play as you originally requested with people who have natural ability. My daughter has natural ability and doesn't need any systems. My wife doesn't have that ability. My daughter doesn't use any systems, but, could probably improve her game 10% to 15% if she did. You can train all the people that you want, but, their game will not excell without ability. Systems or not.
Bob Jewett is incorrect also. I use several systems all the time for postion play or breaking out clusters, so whether it is a factor in your game or not, it is one in mine.
And why do I have to come to Texas, you can come to the Midwest, or I can see you at the next BCA tournament in Vegas. Just remember the old adage, those who cannot do, teach.
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It's pretty obvious that he meant their feel recovers faster once they return to playing, but I agree with you that "systems" can be more quickly remembered than feel can be recovered. I quit playing for a year and a half recently and when I started playing again it was my "systems" that helped me to recover the quickest. (When I say "systems" I mean anything that isn't "feel", like consciously correcting for squirt.)
Systems aren't purely mechanical - you have to know not only how they work theoretically, but also how they work in the real world. This means making adjustments, and that's where re-learning comes in. Some of those adjustments are made by "feel"; some of them are even subconscious.
It's a much better bet that you misread him.
pj
chgo
i think systems are great and definitely useful, when we are talking about systems for banking, kicking, etc. I really dont think there are "systems" per se when it comes to position play though. For position play i think all you can really do is pay attention to tangent line and how english effects the cueball, attack line, etc. One thing i notice is how much slower alot of pros play than your lesser players, and i think it basically comes down to pros think alot more at the table, they are visualizing cueball paths and how to get from ball to ball, playing at least 3 ahead. I think the best advice i could give to help with position play would be to slow down your game some and really map out the table as you play.
S
Snoogi
Guest
I kinda agree.Patrick Johnson said:
To the no-name poster, you're right, feel is derived from practice not time-offs. But you need time-offs during the practice to derive the feel. Everything in this world needs time-offs and breaks to recover be it humans or machines.
And your second line, that's not re-learning, more like recovering. Just like cycling, once you've learnt how to balance, after time-offs or breaks when you get back on it, you don't re-learn how to balance again but recover or make adjustments to cycle better.
This is excellent advice. (1) Plan very specifically (What exact path will the cue ball take off the object ball? What spin will the object ball give to the cue ball? How much more or less do I need? What spot will the cue ball hit on the rail? How will the spin affect the rebound angle and speed? What exact position spot am I aiming the cue ball for, even if it's the center of a "zone"?). (2) Watch what happens very carefully.scottycoyote said:
pj
chgo