Please explain Shaft colors
- Thread starter dom_poppa
- Start date
Chris Hightower wrote a good bit about this subject. Others can explain better than I. Some of it has to doe with the drying process, "sugar" in the wood, etc. I don't really think it has a dramatic effect on the hit from what i've seen. I like the darker stuff personally. Looks cooler to me, but depends on the cue.
most lighter shafts I have seen in color, are also the lightest in weight. The darkness comes from age and seasoning I have been told. The reason you find a very old cue and it seems to resonate with feel and the hit is amazingly crisp. Some builder's spend a lifetime looking for that hit, but only nature can produce it, not technology or machines.
Hi,
Eric Crisp posted a lot of good info on the subject also over the years.
From what have I learned is that each tree is subject to many factors that are site specific.
Mineral content in the ground water, elevation relative to water table, location or ability to receive direct sunlight ( trees on the south Side of a ridge will receive more direct sun light that those on the north or those in a dense forest shaded by the canopies of other threes for example),
There a many more factors and when you buy dowels or planks to make shafts you have no idea of the many factors involved.
The one thing you can have control over is the region the wood comes from. I personally get my 5/4 planks for making shafts from the Iron Mt. Michigan area because of the high iron content in the water. The northern part of the UP has huge deposits of iron in the ground and is were all the taconite ore is mined for steel making in our country.
There are others I am sure that will have a different views on this subject based on their experience and how they collate and classify their wood for shafts.
You never really know how each shaft is going to work until it is at final size and you put it between centers and view the middle area at about 1200 rpm or higher. The higher the rpm with out the center oscillating the better the shaft, IMO. So taking cuts over time and seasoning your shaft allows you to observe them between centers at different stages of their development in your shop. During this time if a shaft shows that it is wiggly when it is still pretty fat, you are better off discarding it so it does not become the bad penny.
Sometimes you can get a freak shaft that can take very high Rpms and stays perfectly still on the lathe. Those shafts have all the right stuff and are very special.
JMO,
Rick
Eric Crisp posted a lot of good info on the subject also over the years.
From what have I learned is that each tree is subject to many factors that are site specific.
Mineral content in the ground water, elevation relative to water table, location or ability to receive direct sunlight ( trees on the south Side of a ridge will receive more direct sun light that those on the north or those in a dense forest shaded by the canopies of other threes for example),
There a many more factors and when you buy dowels or planks to make shafts you have no idea of the many factors involved.
The one thing you can have control over is the region the wood comes from. I personally get my 5/4 planks for making shafts from the Iron Mt. Michigan area because of the high iron content in the water. The northern part of the UP has huge deposits of iron in the ground and is were all the taconite ore is mined for steel making in our country.
There are others I am sure that will have a different views on this subject based on their experience and how they collate and classify their wood for shafts.
You never really know how each shaft is going to work until it is at final size and you put it between centers and view the middle area at about 1200 rpm or higher. The higher the rpm with out the center oscillating the better the shaft, IMO. So taking cuts over time and seasoning your shaft allows you to observe them between centers at different stages of their development in your shop. During this time if a shaft shows that it is wiggly when it is still pretty fat, you are better off discarding it so it does not become the bad penny.
Sometimes you can get a freak shaft that can take very high Rpms and stays perfectly still on the lathe. Those shafts have all the right stuff and are very special.
JMO,
Rick
RBC
Deceased
Well,
Some cue makers buy wood from the white wood forest, and others buy it from the brown wood forest.
Actually, I'm just kidding, of course.
What you are experiencing is the variation in wood itself, as well as the variation in how wood changes over time. Most maple will darken over the years, so it's common for older heavily used shafts to be darker than newer ones. How the wood is dried can also have an impact on the color along with where in the log the particular shaft that you are looking at came from.
Basically, it's wood. It's not a man made product, so it varies based on mother natures wishes.
Try as we have, to my knowledge man has not been able to make a suitable replacement for wood.
darker becoming more desirable
in the last few years i have been selling more and more darker shafts. i personally prefer the old honey color high ring count shafts. i remember a few years ago when i could not sell a cue unless it had a snow white shaft, it got so bad that a few builders were bleaching their shafts so bright white it hurt your eyes to look at them. i thought they were ugly, but thats what sold.
i believe now more people are wanting a more dense, high ring count in their shafts, so it is now acceptable to be seen with a bit darker shaft.
i have done the bounce it on a cement floor and listen to the sound test, hundreds and hundereds of times, with both dark and light color shafts, my unoffical opinion is more offen than not, the darker shafts have a better sound. as a lot of the lighter in color shafts sound dull.
i am sure i will be corrected, BUT i think
higher pitch = more oscilations = more viberations moving from tip to handle = better feel / better hit ???
in the last few years i have been selling more and more darker shafts. i personally prefer the old honey color high ring count shafts. i remember a few years ago when i could not sell a cue unless it had a snow white shaft, it got so bad that a few builders were bleaching their shafts so bright white it hurt your eyes to look at them. i thought they were ugly, but thats what sold.
i believe now more people are wanting a more dense, high ring count in their shafts, so it is now acceptable to be seen with a bit darker shaft.
i have done the bounce it on a cement floor and listen to the sound test, hundreds and hundereds of times, with both dark and light color shafts, my unoffical opinion is more offen than not, the darker shafts have a better sound. as a lot of the lighter in color shafts sound dull.
i am sure i will be corrected, BUT i think
higher pitch = more oscilations = more viberations moving from tip to handle = better feel / better hit ???
Hmmmmm, white wood forest, brown wood forests (good one!) and bouncing shafts. I could have a field day but....
No comment :grin-devilish:
No comment :grin-devilish:
joe
please take some time out of your day and explain to us dummies about using tone wood in cues, please explain to us people that are not qiuite up to your intelligent level, about why the sound of a shaft makes no difference, or why a shaft with 6 growth rings will play better than a shaft with 25 growth rings.... we will listen to your god like advice !!!!!!!!!!!!!
please take some time out of your day and explain to us dummies about using tone wood in cues, please explain to us people that are not qiuite up to your intelligent level, about why the sound of a shaft makes no difference, or why a shaft with 6 growth rings will play better than a shaft with 25 growth rings.... we will listen to your god like advice !!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can take the same log and get whiter wood or darker wood out of it sometimes. Here is how I am told by Michigan wood mill owners it is possible.
Take half the log and let it air dry a while especially in warmer weather before putting it in the kiln. It will turn out darker. Take the same log and get it cut up and in the kiln right away and you will produce lighter colored wood. It also make a difference what type of kiln is being used.
Now which is best for pool cues can be argued all day. One mill owner told me that a large cue manufacturer asked him to install a swimming pool so they could float the logs in it until ready to cut and dry them to keep them super white. He said he refused to do it.
The color of the wood can also be different by where it comes from, so OB's joke was actually kind of true. Some maple tends to be more red in color than wood from other areas. I can tell you the whitest prettiest maple I have seen came from an area that produced really light weight wood. I quit selling that maple years ago as some cuemakers started complaining about the weight.
I will give an opinion on how wood plays over all. The tighter grain maple plays better on average than looser grain wood from the same area. I will also say that the looser grain maple tends to make prettier shafts as grain feathers are almost non existant in really loose grain wood and there are less grain lines to have a ugly brown sugar line in. So just like with women the prettiest is very often not the best.
Take half the log and let it air dry a while especially in warmer weather before putting it in the kiln. It will turn out darker. Take the same log and get it cut up and in the kiln right away and you will produce lighter colored wood. It also make a difference what type of kiln is being used.
Now which is best for pool cues can be argued all day. One mill owner told me that a large cue manufacturer asked him to install a swimming pool so they could float the logs in it until ready to cut and dry them to keep them super white. He said he refused to do it.
The color of the wood can also be different by where it comes from, so OB's joke was actually kind of true. Some maple tends to be more red in color than wood from other areas. I can tell you the whitest prettiest maple I have seen came from an area that produced really light weight wood. I quit selling that maple years ago as some cuemakers started complaining about the weight.
I will give an opinion on how wood plays over all. The tighter grain maple plays better on average than looser grain wood from the same area. I will also say that the looser grain maple tends to make prettier shafts as grain feathers are almost non existant in really loose grain wood and there are less grain lines to have a ugly brown sugar line in. So just like with women the prettiest is very often not the best.
Well gee, I wouldn't refer to anyone as "dummies" as that would not be very nice of me nor is it something I would say. I'm very soft spoken and believe we're all God's children and created equal.
And please, please you're accolades about my intelligence level is not fair as many of you are equally as intelligent and a lot of you even more so. I don't believe I've ever said that the sound of a shaft makes no difference but I do remember saying something about the human ear not being able to discern the difference. If I remember correctly, I was willing to wager some ridiculous amount to prove my theory but there were no takers; not even with all the masterful cue makers and one of the most masterful of all (sort of a harmonic expert) in the great State of California which of course as you all know I have the utmost respect for. I have nothing to offer over anyone even though we sell over 20,000 shafts annually. I mean, what experience can I share that hasn't already been said or that everyone already knows.
Perhaps you are mistaking what I've said about coring and confusing it with shafts because what the sound of any given wood makes has almost no bearing on playability when it's cored. I won't expound on that as I don't want to get into a discussion so I'm fine with whatever the experts have to say with regards to harmonics, coring, playability and resonance. Once again, I have nothing to offer over anyone even though I've personally cored thousands and thousands of handles and forearms. I mean, what experience can I share that hasn't already been said or that everyone already knows.
And lastly, regarding ring count; there is no need for me to say anything because so many of you quote what I have been saying for over a decade so perfectly there is no need for me to say it anymore.
"God like" - no, but thank you and you think much too highly of me. I do thank you for the many, many wonderful accolades you've bestowed upon me but they were truly not necessary as there are so many more on here much more deserving than me of that title.
Lastly, to Chris -- good post!
And a blessed weekend to all.
Well gee, I wouldn't refer to anyone as "dummies" as that would not be very nice of me nor is it something I would say. I'm very soft spoken and believe we're all God's children and created equal.
And please, please you're accolades about my intelligence level is not fair as many of you are equally as intelligent and a lot of you even more so. I don't believe I've ever said that the sound of a shaft makes no difference but I do remember saying something about the human ear not being able to discern the difference. If I remember correctly, I was willing to wager some ridiculous amount to prove my theory but there were no takers; not even with all the masterful cue makers and one of the most masterful of all (sort of a harmonic expert) in the great State of California which of course as you all know I have the utmost respect for. I have nothing to offer over anyone even though we sell over 20,000 shafts annually. I mean, what experience can I share that hasn't already been said or that everyone already knows.
Perhaps you are mistaking what I've said about coring and confusing it with shafts because what the sound of any given wood makes has almost no bearing on playability when it's cored. I won't expound on that as I don't want to get into a discussion so I'm fine with whatever the experts have to say with regards to harmonics, coring, playability and resonance. Once again, I have nothing to offer over anyone even though I've personally cored thousands and thousands of handles and forearms. I mean, what experience can I share that hasn't already been said or that everyone already knows.
And lastly, regarding ring count; there is no need for me to say anything because so many of you quote what I have been saying for over a decade so perfectly there is no need for me to say it anymore.
"God like" - no, but thank you and you think much too highly of me. I do thank you for the many, many wonderful accolades you've bestowed upon me but they were truly not necessary as there are so many more on here much more deserving than me of that title.
Lastly, to Chris -- good post!
And a blessed weekend to all.
Since you have experience in this area, it would be nice to hear what you really think. I find this topic very interesting, and i'd really like to hear what you have to say.
Is there any research, testing, evidence, etc out there that correlates resonance with GPI, color, any other variables?? I'd sure like to find out!
Sarcasm is like salt, a little goes a long way...
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Well Chris is spot on. I have had stark white shafts that played like crap even with descent growth ring count. I have also had stark white shafts, good growth rings that played great. On the other hand I think, IMHO, that a shaft that has some sugar or mineral lines in it, with a darker color will play just as well as a stark white shaft. The shaft is either a good playing shaft, for you, or it isn't.
Joe: I want to bring a tuning fork with me and pick out some shafts later on this month... LOL
My personal playing shaft is what some would consider ugly, there are some mineral lines in it and its not "white" , but its stiff and plays great. Its really personal preference as to what you like and what feels good to you.
Joe: I want to bring a tuning fork with me and pick out some shafts later on this month... LOL
My personal playing shaft is what some would consider ugly, there are some mineral lines in it and its not "white" , but its stiff and plays great. Its really personal preference as to what you like and what feels good to you.
Can you explain why you think the lighter one played better ?
The two don't have the same taper and ferrules I would assume.
Here's a nice read on drying and color. If CH's words were not enough for you.
http://champeau.com/en/product_billiard.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpl9ANYjjWE
Ernie talks about shaft color in that video. Worth the watch. A real master cue maker. Not an oft-arrested wahoo.
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Sweet spot ? Diminishing value of weight and stiffness ? Stability ?
I don't see people playing with ppleheart shafts.
Titanium shafts didn't take off. Graphite cored shafts ?
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Hey Guillame,
You have one of the biggest fluid strokes I have been in the same room with.
What is your preference on this for 3 C and is it any different when you are controlling balls in straight rail with the butt in the air?
Rick
Guillaume
Registered
Ha ha Rick, thank you!...
You're right when you spoke about stroke: cue and shaft you need depends of your stroke, if you have not a good one your cue is supposed to help you to put more english and if you have a good one, your cue is supposed helping to control your stroke.
In carom games stroke control is very very important because you need to control your aim on the object ball and your stroke to touch the third ball and by the way controlling where the three balls will stop... The object ball will not disappear in a pocket!! In any case I don't want to say that pool is easier than carom because it is not... but being a strong carom player does not require same qualities than being a strong pool player.
After that in carom when you play straight rail with small shots and a lot of massé shots you need to have heavy shafts but not too stiff, when you play 3c your shaft is never too stiff especially if you play international tournaments with brand new balls and clothes: your ball is more sliding on the table that rolling! In those conditions you need maximum control.
Last (not really but for this post) shaft (and cue) characteristics you need depends of your game, we can say there is too family, too school: Belgian and rest of the world (including France)
On most familiar 3 cushion points Belgian players used to play more with balls rejects (between your ball and object ball) with zero (or near zero) English, that way balls reactions especially when touching rails are very similar and easy to imagine. Easier with stiff shaft.
French and other players are more prone to play with maximum english and more dynamic strokes. Easier with more flexible shaft.
Those too school have the same goal: finding the easier way to imagine where the 3 balls are going to be after the stroke.
Zero english: I know what happens: easier
Maxi english: I know what happens: easier
But between zero and maximum it is too difficult: one tip of english? 2 tips? Results will depends of each player, of balls, of table, of cue, etc...
How you can measure english? One inch of english? One liter? One oz? Too difficult!... That's why it is zero (close to zero) or maxi...
To make good shafts, wood is important depending of the game you play but most important is taper, right taper with right wood and it is perfect.
You're right when you spoke about stroke: cue and shaft you need depends of your stroke, if you have not a good one your cue is supposed to help you to put more english and if you have a good one, your cue is supposed helping to control your stroke.
In carom games stroke control is very very important because you need to control your aim on the object ball and your stroke to touch the third ball and by the way controlling where the three balls will stop... The object ball will not disappear in a pocket!! In any case I don't want to say that pool is easier than carom because it is not... but being a strong carom player does not require same qualities than being a strong pool player.
After that in carom when you play straight rail with small shots and a lot of massé shots you need to have heavy shafts but not too stiff, when you play 3c your shaft is never too stiff especially if you play international tournaments with brand new balls and clothes: your ball is more sliding on the table that rolling! In those conditions you need maximum control.
Last (not really but for this post) shaft (and cue) characteristics you need depends of your game, we can say there is too family, too school: Belgian and rest of the world (including France)
On most familiar 3 cushion points Belgian players used to play more with balls rejects (between your ball and object ball) with zero (or near zero) English, that way balls reactions especially when touching rails are very similar and easy to imagine. Easier with stiff shaft.
French and other players are more prone to play with maximum english and more dynamic strokes. Easier with more flexible shaft.
Those too school have the same goal: finding the easier way to imagine where the 3 balls are going to be after the stroke.
Zero english: I know what happens: easier
Maxi english: I know what happens: easier
But between zero and maximum it is too difficult: one tip of english? 2 tips? Results will depends of each player, of balls, of table, of cue, etc...
How you can measure english? One inch of english? One liter? One oz? Too difficult!... That's why it is zero (close to zero) or maxi...
To make good shafts, wood is important depending of the game you play but most important is taper, right taper with right wood and it is perfect.