Please Help with this 2-Ball Pattern

[donny mills]

Either Neil's 1st shot or Jay's draw would be fine. I think the 8 is too far down table to consider the follow (Neil's 2nd shot) as a top option.

I would like to point out that I think to play shape for the straight back draw, especially with ball-in-hand, is one of the most overlooked shots in pool. Since 9 ball players are always looking for angle, they rarely try to leave themselves straight in.

I would personally hit the draw shot sightly different - I would draw with a slight angle into the rail - that leaves me plenty of room to clear the side pocket points so I don't get a surprise if I make a slight aiming error- see below.

Chris

CueTable Help

I like this shot the best. Especially if I'm not feeling confident with my draw stroke. Either because it's humid and the stick is not gliding smoothly between my fingers, or maybe the chalk is a little wet and afraid I might miscue. This way up above is drawing a little but the spin helps you alot. A little low and a little outside. Between 4 and 5 oclock.

 

[donny mills]

You can also just follow the 8 up table. Just give yourself a slight angle so you can't scratch in the same pocket if you follow it to far.

CueTable Help

I wouldn't play this follow shot if the balls are dirty or rough conditions where the balls are skidding some what often. This follow shot could easily skid under rough conditions.

 

[PoolBum]

I like this shot the best. Especially if I'm not feeling confident with my draw stroke. Either because it's humid and the stick is not gliding smoothly between my fingers, or maybe the chalk is a little wet and afraid I might miscue. This way up above is drawing a little but the spin helps you alot. A little low and a little outside. Between 4 and 5 oclock.

I think for someone who plays at your level Donny this is probably a pretty routine position shot. But I think for the average player this is actually a pretty subtle shot where a lot can go wrong. If you overcut the object ball even slightly, or if your draw stroke doesn't quite take, the cueball is gonna get to that side cushion too soon and you could easily end up going straight toward the object ball, or not even getting down table far enough.

The difficulty is that the angle of the shot is not doing all the work here as far as the direction the cueball takes after contact is concerned--the shot requires that you change the direction with draw in order to hit the side cushion closer up near the side pocket so that the cueball travels up table toward the position area and not toward the next ball. That's a pretty subtle and nuanced combination of factors to execute for the average player.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

(1) pocketing the ball in the corner pocket it is nearest to is easier than pocketing it in the far pocket (two feet to the pocket as opposed to six);

I think this is backwards. The 6-foot follow shot is easier because it's a straight shot with little or no cut and the simplest possible hit on the cue ball, with the only variable being speed. The zig zag shot is a cut shot with sidespin and maybe draw, which must be hit considerably harder.

(2) judging speed for position is easier using the two cushions as opposed to trying to judge the draw shot or follow shot speed alone using no cushions (I think it's somewhat easy to over draw/follow or, especially, under draw the cueball here--it is not a short draw/follow shot);

I agree with the concept of using rails to control speed, but it's also twice as far to the position zone with the zig zag shot. I'm not sure there's much gain.

and (3) there is a greater margin of error as far as position is concerned with the two cushion shot as opposed to the straight back draw or follow.

I disagree with this too. The follow shot has nearly twice as much rolling room within the position zone:

CueTable Help

If I had to coach an unknown player how to get a shot on the 9, I'd tell 'em to shoot the follow shot.

pj
chgo

 

[branpureza]

CueTable Help

 

[PoolBum]

I think this is backwards. The 6-foot follow shot is easier because it's a straight shot with little or no cut and the simplest possible hit on the cue ball, with the only variable being speed. The zig zag shot is a cut shot with sidespin and maybe draw, which must be hit considerably harder.



I agree with the concept of using rails to control speed, but it's also twice as far to the position zone with the zig zag shot. I'm not sure there's much gain.



I disagree with this too. The follow shot has nearly twice as much rolling room within the position zone:

CueTable Help

If I had to coach an unknown player how to get a shot on the 9, I'd tell 'em to shoot the follow shot.

pj
chgo

We'll have to disagree about the relative difficulty of pocketing the ball on the two shots. If we are talking about an average player, I don't think the fact that the six foot shot is a straight in shot means that it's easier (a slight error in aim can add up to missing the shot over a six foot difference, and some of the harder shots to aim, I think, are in fact straight in shots).

Again, I think the speed using the rails is easier to judge than the follow, even if the distance is greater in this case.

I didn't count the possibility of missing the position by so much that the cueball comes off the end cushion and back into the position zone, but if we do count that then you are right.

 

[Jen_Cen]

I have learned so much from this thread!

I like the shots where I can come into the line of the shot.

What a great feeling when it actually works!

 

[robleyf7]

When I quoted your post, the WEI tags were off to the right of the URL.

I consider this the standard pattern for this shot and similar. In commentator vernacular, it's "through the center of the table toward the second diamond."

If the object ball is closer to the cushion or even frozen, the I like to simply put the cueball straighter and stretch.

Fred

i agree i like this pattern better in this sittuation

 

[JoeyA]

Right handers....

http://CueTable.com/P/?@3HYEK1IAmR3PFGn3kFGn3kXer3kayo1kbfa1kQco1uBvN@

Make sure you have some right hand English combined with a little low English as shown on the cue ball in the diagram.

From this position one tip of side spin and one tip of low should get the cue ball to the middle Diamond (approximately where you will be standing). A little practice and fine tuning and you will make this shot with consistency.

If you hit near the side pocket, you may need to add a little more side spin or a little more draw.

Place the cue ball as close to the 8 ball as you can without stretching. Stretching can cause you to miss making the shot or make you miss getting shape or both.

Think: Smooth strokes.
Think: Stay still, stay down on the shot(except for moving your bridge hand out of the way of the cue ball after you make contact with the cue ball)
Think: Hit the cue ball exactly where you plan to hit the cue ball.
Think: On your last stroke-slow, straight backswing.
Think: On your last forward stroke, Accelerate the cue stick (smoothly) through the cue ball.

Oh yeah, don't think too much. :grin:

JoeyA

 

[philw]

LOL I dunno what kinda stuff some of you guys are on but that follow shot is not that hard.

Ok your playing on 4" pockets? WTF are you doing playing on a table with 4" pockets? This can't be that enjoyable, 4 1/4 is the best in my opinion. Even with a table with 4" pockets this shot is very do able. Just hit it pocket weight. The other shots listed arn't going to be any easier.

If she can't reach the shot the follow shot is perfect. Yes you could set it up so that you go inside english 3-4 rails with follow but this requires a much better stroke than a simple follow shot and it requires good judgement of your throw/masse. Yes you could just simply draw the ball, but she can't reach it, like she said, so she would have to get the rake, and a lot of people are not comfortable drawing the ball with the rake.

I could get out 50 times out of 50 times with that follow shot. The inside english or draw shot I wouldn't get out as many times compared to the follow shot.

Gatz, I think you just made a proposition bet that you might get a lot of action on. I personally don't think you could get out 50 out of 50 tries and I'm sure you could get many takers.

 

[Robert Raiford]

[...] that follow shot is not that hard. [...]Just hit it pocket weight.

I assume by "pocket weight" you mean where the OB just falls into the pocket. Interestingly, the physics says you can't get down table more than a diamond with max follow if you do this with a full hit. That's because there's about a 1:6 ratio between the rolling distances for the CB and OB when hitting the OB full with max follow, and the pocket is about 6 diamonds away.

Getting straight on the 9 (approx the center of the zone) means rolling ~5 diamonds. That means with a very full hit, you have to hit the OB hard enough for it to travel 5 x 6 = 30 diamonds!

Of course you can't roll 30 diamonds without hitting a rail, and rail contacts take a lot of energy from the ball to keep it from actually rolling 30 total diamonds. But it would at least require shooting hard enough to bank the 8 back to about where it started. That's certainly more than pocket speed and would make the shot more difficult on tight pockets by shrinking the effective pocket size.

Robert

 

[donny mills]

I assume by "pocket weight" you mean where the OB just falls into the pocket. Interestingly, the physics says you can't get down table more than a diamond with max follow if you do this with a full hit. That's because there's about a 1:6 ratio between the rolling distances for the CB and OB when hitting the OB full with max follow, and the pocket is about 6 diamonds away.

Getting straight on the 9 (approx the center of the zone) means rolling ~5 diamonds. That means with a very full hit, you have to hit the OB hard enough for it to travel 5 x 6 = 30 diamonds!

Of course you can't roll 30 diamonds without hitting a rail, and rail contacts take a lot of energy from the ball to keep it from actually rolling 30 total diamonds. But it would at least require shooting hard enough to bank the 8 back to about where it started. That's certainly more than pocket speed and would make the shot more difficult on tight pockets by shrinking the effective pocket size.

Robert

5*6 + diamonds is 30 roll what where %&*$$# who understands all that?

 

[jsp]

I would just shoot the combo...

CueTable Help

 

[JoeyA]

I like this shot the best. Especially if I'm not feeling confident with my draw stroke. Either because it's humid and the stick is not gliding smoothly between my fingers, or maybe the chalk is a little wet and afraid I might miscue. This way up above is drawing a little but the spin helps you alot. A little low and a little outside. Between 4 and 5 oclock.

Donny,

Your shot preference on this one surprises me quite a bit. :indecisive:

Now I am pretty sure I have a chance. All I need now is to get Roy in my corner and we will see you at DCC. Roy has those ever-increasing in value, Euro Dollars that grow by the day.

JoeyA

 

[jsp]

CueTable Help

Not quite sure, but if the 8 is that close to the rail, then you'd have to load it with a massive amount of right english for the CB to follow the path you indicate. That or you'd have to set up the shot much straighter in, which would make you have to reach more. I'll have to test this out on the table at home.

If the 8 was further off the rail, I would do the above shot. But with the exact placement of the 8 shown in the figure, I would do the follow shot.

 

[3RAILKICK]

Aint ya glad ya asked?

:welcome:

I have learned so much from this thread!

I like the shots where I can come into the line of the shot.

What a great feeling when it actually works!

Now you have a gazillion things to work on. IF YOU ASK FOR COACHING IN A MATCH-be willing to just say NO, if you can't get there from here.

As you can see-if you ask for the right or best way to get shape-advice will be offered up from the author's perspective-what they would do based on their skillset and experience. As your skills improve, so too do the number of options to choose from.

I think all this advice has come from guys. All us guys think our way is the best way to do things. Hell, we don't even care if it's wrong-it's still right!

Welcome aboard.

Have fun.

3railkick

honestly-I can't do anything right 50 times in a row.

 

[donny mills]

Donny,

Your shot preference on this one surprises me quite a bit. :indecisive:

Now I am pretty sure I have a chance. All I need now is to get Roy in my corner and we will see you at DCC. Roy has those ever-increasing in value, Euro Dollars that grow by the day.

JoeyA

Lol I don't know if I am going to derby. Really you don't like drawing it off the rail with spin?

Actually the more I look at it the post made right after yours made by "JSP" I think I like that shot more depending on how far the 8 is off the rail.

 

[JoeyA]

Lol I don't know if I am going to derby. Really you don't like drawing it off the rail with spin?

Actually the more I look at it the post made right after yours made by "JSP" I think I like that shot more depending on how far the 8 is off the rail.

No, not really. While I can do the shot without much difficulty, it seems that that type of shot on thing that can go wrong with it is the cueball hitting the side rail with a little too much ooomph and now you have the cue ball running straight at the nine ball lining up for a hard cut. The cue ball looks like it is 12-13" off of the side rail and the 8 ball is one full ball away from the side rail.

I practice an old shot that Buddy Hall made popular with one of his instructional videos where the object ball is on the first side rail diamond, one ball's width away from the side rail and the cue ball is behind the headstring and you have to draw the cue ball back across the table to the middle diamond on the other side of the table. Heck, let me go to www.cuetable.com and draw a diagram.

<iframe src="http://CueTable.com/P/Player/?@4HXoE2PULX2kULX4kXfn4kbhk2kbBE2kQGi@" noresize="noresize" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="no" width="600" height="400" ></iframe>
If I can do that fairly consistently, I don't see how I could shoot the other shot any other way.

This is the shot that Buddy says, "This is not a draw shot, this is a SPIN SHOT!".

Hope to see you at the DCC. If you get in the commentary booth with me, you know I will be requiring you to sign the legally binding, JoeyA "POOL SECRETS" contract. :yeah:

JoeyA

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Robert Raiford:
...there's about a 1:6 ratio between the rolling distances for the CB and OB when hitting the OB full with max follow

That's very useful to know, especially for safety play, and [shameless plug alert] it's also one of the many valuable pieces of knowledge contained in the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots, which I have no affiliation with but is stuffed full of that kind of thing and is >> available here <<.

pj
chgo

 

[3RAILKICK]

I remember that shot

:yeah::yeah:from JoeyA post-

I practice an old shot that Buddy Hall made popular with one of his instructional videos where the object ball is on the first side rail diamond, one ball's width away from the side rail and the cue ball is behind the headstring and you have to draw the cue ball back across the table to the middle diamond on the other side of the table. .


This is the shot that Buddy says, "This is not a draw shot, this is a SPIN SHOT!".

JoeyA[/QUOTE]


Joey-was that in 'How to win from here'?

More side than bottom. Very well struck. I can't get there with stun side alone. I think in the video he concedes that there is draw-but the emphasis is on side-maybe hit at 7:45-8:00 on cb. Mighty fine shot-by him and you.

Funny how we remember certain shots in our visual memory.

Take care-best wishes at the Derby.


3railkick