I would like to know. Everyone seems to think he stole a bunch of money from pool players. Don't you have to actually come out ahead to hustle someone? The money he paid out in the first two tournaments was at least 10 times the amount he collected in qualifiers.
Please tell me how KT hustled pool players
- Thread starter mnShooter
- Start date
mnShooter said:
i think empty promises and charging 2k to enter tournys with no prize money in order to play in a qualifier which will probably never happen for starters. there are players that spent over 20k trying to win a qualifier taking a shot at 1 million. perhaps he didnt hustle players or steal money but his lies sure have cost a lot of people.
mnShooter said:
I have made that point several times up here and got screamed at every time. The man had a business plan that didn't work. When the ship was sinking, he did try to buy so time by lying. In the end, this venture costed HIM a lot of money. However, I think the biggest losers is this is the game of pool. I don't believe the game, or the players, will ever have a shot at "the big time" again. Some people are simply blaming KT for everything. I even heard one guy complaining that HE had gone and bought a home table to practice more for the IPT!!! How is that KT's fault?
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The fact that he didnt take in in Q'rs more than he gave out doesn't mean crap! What about Sponsor money, TV money etc?
I happen to think he lost money but he still hustled the players with his 'vision'. Players altered their life and spent plenty believing in this tour that was 'in the black', 'funded for 2 years' 'had huge ratings' etc. I mean he was so over the top with the BS from day one when it was all a house of cards and he knew it.
I happen to think he lost money but he still hustled the players with his 'vision'. Players altered their life and spent plenty believing in this tour that was 'in the black', 'funded for 2 years' 'had huge ratings' etc. I mean he was so over the top with the BS from day one when it was all a house of cards and he knew it.
But what if the hustle HAD worked?
No, coming out ahead simply indicates you are a smart and successful hustler. KT was still hustling, just not very well.
Consider this - He now claims that he was working to sell the gambling rights to IPT events. He did this in secret the whole time whilst publicly telling the players something totally different. He was attempting to capitalize on their skills and telling them whatever they wanted to hear to keep them sweet.
He has also made it very clear he has absolutely no intention of making any parts of the IPT's finances public, and that if any players don't like this they can go play elsewhere.
So here's the question - IF he had successfully carried out his secret plan to sell to and/or merge with an online gambling company, and IF this had turned out to make a large amount of profit, exactly how much of this profit do you think the IPT players would have seen? How would anyone ever know how much their promised shares would be if they didn't know what the profit was in the first place? Why wouldn't he just take the money and run?
The fact that the deal fell apart and the only thing he has to run from is debts is his own fault. He did try his best to hustle up a pile of money, he just wasn't very good at judging his marks.
mnShooter said:
No, coming out ahead simply indicates you are a smart and successful hustler. KT was still hustling, just not very well.
Consider this - He now claims that he was working to sell the gambling rights to IPT events. He did this in secret the whole time whilst publicly telling the players something totally different. He was attempting to capitalize on their skills and telling them whatever they wanted to hear to keep them sweet.
He has also made it very clear he has absolutely no intention of making any parts of the IPT's finances public, and that if any players don't like this they can go play elsewhere.
So here's the question - IF he had successfully carried out his secret plan to sell to and/or merge with an online gambling company, and IF this had turned out to make a large amount of profit, exactly how much of this profit do you think the IPT players would have seen? How would anyone ever know how much their promised shares would be if they didn't know what the profit was in the first place? Why wouldn't he just take the money and run?
The fact that the deal fell apart and the only thing he has to run from is debts is his own fault. He did try his best to hustle up a pile of money, he just wasn't very good at judging his marks.
KT induced people to invest time and money by misrepresenting his product. His tour was fully funded for the first two years of competition, or so he claimed in the first players meeting. Those whose performance in the first four IPT events left them ranked in the Top 100 would be guaranteed an income of $100,000 in 2007. All but eight of the 150 had already opted to play on his tour without any such assurances, but, quite understandably, countless others swallowed this bait, and invested plenty of time and money trying to qualify for the 2007 tour by either winning a 2006 tour card or earning qualifying spots into the four 2006 events. Even the original 150 saw it more fitting to work much harder at their games.
When this tour failed to generate significant revenue, KT pulled the plug, and the fact that his tour was not funded for two years became patently obvious when he defaulted on the payouts in the tour's second-ever event.
Through misrepresentation of his organization's finances, KT induced many to invest time and money in his vision. To me, that's a hustle.
When this tour failed to generate significant revenue, KT pulled the plug, and the fact that his tour was not funded for two years became patently obvious when he defaulted on the payouts in the tour's second-ever event.
Through misrepresentation of his organization's finances, KT induced many to invest time and money in his vision. To me, that's a hustle.
sjm said:
I understand where you're coming from, SJM!
IMHO, though, whoever advised Kevin Trudeau initially, before he made a multi-million-dollar investment into pool, gave him some bad advice.
Do you think that he would have taken on this endeavor of an IPT if he didn't think it would work? I believe that Kevin Trudeau went into this with high expectations. It is a shame that he was not informed about the state of pool in America. Many of the folks who are deep in the American pool culture think pro players are scum.
Today, just like yesterday, pool is stuck in the mud here in the United States. I think the players who invested their time and monies into the IPT have been wronged, but in the end, which seems to be right around the corner, Kevin Trudeau is the biggest loser, monetarily speaking.
The pool players, the ones who desire to be all that they can be, despite the naysayers in the American pool culture, will continue to follow a tournament trail where they can only hope to win, place, or show to break even.
I do not like what has happened to the IPT. I don't think anybody does, but the more I think about it, it is my belief that it is Kevin Trudeau who got hustled. Little did he know, the IPT was doomed before it even got off the ground.
When a pool player has lost all happiness, he's not alive. Call him a breathing corpse.
JAM
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JAM said:
Like you, I wil always believe that KT had good intentions, and I'll always appreciate him for that, but ....... if he made a frivolous investment in pool that was based chiefly on the recommendations of his friends, rather than on market research and a carefully crafted business plan, he simply acted irresponsibly. If he didn't devise or execute his business plan, then he was guilty of poor business administration.
KT may have gotten poor advice, but as the sole proprietor of this venture, he must be held responsible for all the decisions he made. He was the one who controlled who would be his advisors with respect to this venture. His summary dismissal of many organizations and figures within pro pool that could have provided him with both information and guidance was both stupid and arrogant and, once again, evidences poor business administration.
KT is guilty of poor management, and to, even partially, pin his failures on those who may have pointed him in the wrong direction is unfair. He failed to sufficiently study the pool indusrty before diving in, and suffered the sad fate that most business proprietors that look before they leap must suffer.
KT was let down by his advisors, but they were the wrong advisors, and he assigned no importance to the input of more suitable advisors, to whom he surely had access. He hustled himself by selectively tuning out all those that might have helped him think out his business venture more clearly.
KT planned and managed the IPT venture poorly, and is 100% responsible for its failure.
JimS said:
Really?
I think this online gambling "excuse", is a complete after thought and just a convenient way out. IMO it came way out of left field, after he originally made other excuses to cover his butt. I do not buy it.
I see a lot of dancing at the end of the Reno event, first there was the Fed Ex Cha Cha, then the Ho Merger Two Step and then all of sudden we get this Online Gambling Jitterbug! Was online gambling ever mentioned as part of the plan before that?
cuechick said:
No, in fact it was a big surprise to his staff when he announced the Ho deal at the player's meeting!
mnShooter said:
I kinda see what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree. He was very dishonest and made many statements and promises that were false. If I had won any money in a tournamnet and did not get it I would be very upset. If you went down to a local ( but still fairly large) tournamnet and paid say $100 to play and had the payouts explained to you, you would expect them to pay that out. So now you play really well, and place say 9th place. Well according to the payout structure, you should get $900, but they tell you they forgot to figure in the cost of some expenses, so now you will only get your $100 back. You would calmly say you understand, and these things do happen, right? If you say yes, you are a better man than me! Keep in mind in this fictional case, you still had a good time, played some great macthes and broke even! You only lost some of your time. You did not get on a plane, book a hotel room, take taxis, and invest days of your time and money to play. It is also not your sole source of income.
He is still selling DVDs of the matches ( and anything else that someone will buy) and keeping that money. I remember reading all of his promises and saying how ridiculous it was for all the players to be so concerned about getting paid. He was gauranteeing that prize money. Nobody knows for sure how much money KT made or lost on this entire venture. One thing is fore sure ( at least to me) : he made all of his decisions based on what was in it for him. The fact that some others may or may not have benifitted does't change that.
One other thing: to anyone who really still believes that KT just did the best he could and just was misinformed, look him up on Wikepedia, before you respond. He is a bona fide scam artist who already spent time in prison for it. He is not new at this game ( of scamming).
S
Scottster
Guest
If KT's grand scheme was to have online betting on the matches, then I am glad the ipt folded up.
That would have led to an even bigger black eye on the pool world.
Lets just say that Pete Rose would look like a saint compared to what would have happened in the pool world.
That would have led to an even bigger black eye on the pool world.
Lets just say that Pete Rose would look like a saint compared to what would have happened in the pool world.
KT is the greatest hustler of all time - He hustled the hustlers of the world
So far #5 #6, and #12 are the best answers.
It seems to me like he's got everything planned out from the beginning which is to make a fortune out of these players' skills. KT is a con artist that he is. First he admired how great the players are, then he told them that he wanted to help them out. When it's time to pay the players, he started blaming on everybody and everything, so that he can keep delaying the prize money. He's spent a great deal of money to impress the players. No doubt about that.
My question is does anybody know how much money he has taken in from $2000/player per entry fee, $1000 membership fee, how many DVDs he has sold and other sponsors' money. And who are we to ask him about his dealings with other investors, if any of them did exist. He already has said that it's "private business".
If you've carefully analyzed his letter to the players dated 08/11/2006 (the popping the champagne one) like I have, you would agree with me that he did have everything planned out from the beginning.
Con artists never have any intentions making a business a long-term one.
So far #5 #6, and #12 are the best answers.
That's what con artists do. Can't blame him for that.
That's called "private business".
Everybody knew that and he even openly admitted it, but the players were blinded by how much money they could have won just being qualified.
It seems to me like he's got everything planned out from the beginning which is to make a fortune out of these players' skills. KT is a con artist that he is. First he admired how great the players are, then he told them that he wanted to help them out. When it's time to pay the players, he started blaming on everybody and everything, so that he can keep delaying the prize money. He's spent a great deal of money to impress the players. No doubt about that.
My question is does anybody know how much money he has taken in from $2000/player per entry fee, $1000 membership fee, how many DVDs he has sold and other sponsors' money. And who are we to ask him about his dealings with other investors, if any of them did exist. He already has said that it's "private business".
If you've carefully analyzed his letter to the players dated 08/11/2006 (the popping the champagne one) like I have, you would agree with me that he did have everything planned out from the beginning.
Con artists never have any intentions making a business a long-term one.
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What about Mike Sigel?
Kevin T is obviously a shyster of the worst kind, but what about Mike Sigel?
Mike Sigel was obviously a player in all of this, and he had the most experience of anyone involved. I don't have a clue how he and KT got hooked up with each other, but it sure seems to me that with his experience, he must've been a key advisor to KT at the inception of KT's "vision".
Maybe it was Mike Sigel who hustled KT...and the rest of the pool world!
How come nobody talks about Mike Sigel?
Kevin T is obviously a shyster of the worst kind, but what about Mike Sigel?
Mike Sigel was obviously a player in all of this, and he had the most experience of anyone involved. I don't have a clue how he and KT got hooked up with each other, but it sure seems to me that with his experience, he must've been a key advisor to KT at the inception of KT's "vision".
Maybe it was Mike Sigel who hustled KT...and the rest of the pool world!
How come nobody talks about Mike Sigel?
gwvavases said:
They have done and still do. Several entire threads and many individual posts within other threads have been entirely devoted to "talking" about Mike Sigel and the part he played. The general concensus so far appears to have been that prior to IPT starting up MS may have contributed to KT receiving an unrealistic overview of several things,including at least -
(a) the level, relative to current top players, to which his own pool playing ability had fallen
(b) the level of interest that even big money pool would hold for the public outside the existing very small hard core of pool lovers
None of which, though understandable, excuses KT's behaviour.