POCKET HANGERS … Everything You Need to Know

[Bob Jewett]

Does anybody agree with Jay on this? I am curious about what others think about going rail-first for position when it is not required (e.g., to avoid an obstacle ball or the point of the pocket).

Regards,
Dave

I think that it often easier to move the cue ball a long distance by going rail first. The main problem for new players will be to hit the right distance up the rail to get the correct fullness on the object ball. I think most will try to hit it too full. It takes additional practice that is quite different from normal aiming.

 

[dr_dave]

I think that it often easier to move the cue ball a long distance by going rail first. The main problem for new players will be to hit the right distance up the rail to get the correct fullness on the object ball. I think most will try to hit it too full. It takes additional practice that is quite different from normal aiming.

That's a good point. Rail-first can give the CB more speed, and this could be important on a table with slow cloth and/or cushions.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Does anybody agree with Jay on this? I am curious about what others think about going rail-first for position when it is not required (e.g., to avoid an obstacle ball or the point of the pocket).

Regards,
Dave

I agree with you that some CB control is lost going rail-first, so I'd only do it when needed.

But another way rail-first comes in handy is when you need to go pretty "flat" crosstable (more parallel with the end rail) - going rail first you don't have to hit it nearly as hard as stunning/drawing off the OB.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

That's a good point. Rail-first can give the CB more speed, and this could be important on a table with slow cloth and/or cushions.

Rail-first could also help one get a desired 3-rail path into the next shot (or around/through obstacles).

Thanks to everybody for all of the good feedback and suggestions in this thread. I appreciate it.

 

[dr_dave]

I agree with you that some CB control is lost going rail-first, so I'd only do it when needed.

But another way rail-first comes in handy is when you need to go pretty "flat" crosstable (more parallel with the end rail) - going rail first you don't have to hit it nearly as hard as stunning/drawing off the OB.

Another good point.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[heisenbug]

Going rail first vs ball first when walking a ball up a rail is a very tiny difference, but boy does it mess with my position. Until recently I couldn't figure out why sometimes my English worked off the rail and sometimes it wouldn't. I could put the same exact spin on the ball and it would end up in wildly different parts of the table.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Going rail first vs ball first when walking a ball up a rail is a very tiny difference, but boy does it mess with my position. Until recently I couldn't figure out why sometimes my English worked off the rail and sometimes it wouldn't. I could put the same exact spin on the ball and it would end up in wildly different parts of the table.

When you can choose which way to hit it you can reach other parts of the table - or take alternate routes. Rail first can be a handy position tool.

pj
chgo

 

[Tin Man]

hangers

Dr. Dave, you are putting out some serious knowledge!

AZers, I hope you all take time to work through these shots. You could do this in an hour and it will pay off the rest of your life. I'm sure most of you know most of these hits, but I am confident there are some paths you're a bit murky on exactly how the cue ball reacts and you work around them. Learn them. They come up all the time. Additionally those same paths come up with the object ball off the rail so they can be applied to many different situations. Just great for learning the cue ball.

There is one variation I want to add. It is the revere of the shot at 14:00 where he cuts the object ball in to the right side of pocket with extreme inside and comes two rails. In fact, it's similar to the shot at 14:37 where he cuts the ball to his left with high inside.

The shot I'm about to describe is one that many players overlook. Shoot the 14:37 shot as thinly as possible and load that sucker up with inside english. You can get the cueball to spin sharply into the rail and zing towards the third diamond by the side pocket you're standing by, then head up table just on the long rail side of the top left corner as we view the screen. People see this shot when the object ball is on the long rail by the first diamond, it's a common inside three railer. But somehow when the ball is hanging they overlook it, and often attempt using a combination of draw and outside english to attempt to zig zag the cue ball. This is much harder to hit accurately and the english holds up on the second rail making it unpredictable.

I set up this situation for my best friend who plays really strong and he overlooked it and was excited when we played with it. He and I practice hanging balls during our boot camps because they are that important to get down. Especially playing one pocket where you finally get a shot after half an hour and the game hinges on whether you can weave your cue ball on the other side of the balls without running into something.

Also, about those shots where you do need to use low and outside english to draw the cue ball up table. When possible avoid them with a rolling ball/thin hit/sidespin. But when you need to shoot them it can be hard to estimate the thickness of the hit on the object ball to get the cue ball to come out at the right angle. Dr Dave demonstrates this at 12:00 but it comes up often. To help with this, I actually ask myself "If this ball weren't hanging but were instead 6" from the pocket, what angle would I want on the ball to be able to establish the right path using a stun with outside?" For the shot in the video I'd want a pretty full hit but it is much easier to picture the hit I need with the ball out a bit, so I visualize that, then use the contact point on the hanging ball and it gets me very close. And by picking a contact point that works with a stun and one tip of sidespin I can get pretty consistent results instead of messing with actual draw which can easily be over or underdone.

Finally, on the topic of rail first shots. Rail first shots add a variable and are in general more difficult to control. Now, there are many cases in which they also eliminate other challenges (speed of the hit, establishing the right angle with a rolling ball instead of draw, etc). If the rail first hit eliminates more challenges than it creates it is the right shot. There are clearly many, many times this is the case. And sometimes you need to play shape for an angle that sets up for a rail first hit. Maybe other balls force you to play shape along the rail, or it is the most natural position to obtain from the prior shot. In those cases, yes, know your rail first shots. They are common and should be totally comfortable.

But I wouldn't go so far as to say I prefer them. I can't remember ever shooting a rail first shot with ball in hand. My cue ball is pretty good so I usually get the angle I want, and I don't play rail first as often these days as I used to because I know the other hanging shots so well.

Dr. Dave pointed out that if you want to come out at an angle, play shape to be on a rail, if you want to come out along the rail, play shape for an angle. Do this when possible and you'll be able to get where you're going. If not go rail first and get the job done that way.

OK, that's all I have for now. Mostly just cheering on a great video and celebrating the community we have on AZB. Lucky to be part of it!

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave, you are putting out some serious knowledge!

Thank you! And thanks again for offering encouragement and some good ideas when I was planning the video.

AZers, I hope you all take time to work through these shots. You could do this in an hour and it will pay off the rest of your life. I'm sure most of you know most of these hits, but I am confident there are some paths you're a bit murky on exactly how the cue ball reacts and you work around them. Learn them. They come up all the time. Additionally those same paths come up with the object ball off the rail so they can be applied to many different situations. Just great for learning the cue ball.

Good advice. All of the shots in the video are excellent practice, especially the drills starting at 10:19. I feel like I learned a lot during the filming. I need to start posting more videos because they make me get excellent practice in ... actual methodical and dedicated practice, and not just play. I always feel like my game is elevated after a long filming session.

There is one variation I want to add. It is the revere of the shot at 14:00 where he cuts the object ball in to the right side of pocket with extreme inside and comes two rails. In fact, it's similar to the shot at 14:37 where he cuts the ball to his left with high inside.

The shot I'm about to describe is one that many players overlook. Shoot the 14:37 shot as thinly as possible and load that sucker up with inside english. You can get the cueball to spin sharply into the rail and zing towards the third diamond by the side pocket you're standing by, then head up table just on the long rail side of the top left corner as we view the screen. People see this shot when the object ball is on the long rail by the first diamond, it's a common inside three railer. But somehow when the ball is hanging they overlook it, and often attempt using a combination of draw and outside english to attempt to zig zag the cue ball. This is much harder to hit accurately and the english holds up on the second rail making it unpredictable.

I set up this situation for my best friend who plays really strong and he overlooked it and was excited when we played with it. He and I practice hanging balls during our boot camps because they are that important to get down. Especially playing one pocket where you finally get a shot after half an hour and the game hinges on whether you can weave your cue ball on the other side of the balls without running into something.

Good explanation. I probably should have showed more shots like these since they are so useful.

Also, about those shots where you do need to use low and outside english to draw the cue ball up table. When possible avoid them with a rolling ball/thin hit/sidespin. But when you need to shoot them it can be hard to estimate the thickness of the hit on the object ball to get the cue ball to come out at the right angle. Dr Dave demonstrates this at 12:00 but it comes up often. To help with this, I actually ask myself "If this ball weren't hanging but were instead 6" from the pocket, what angle would I want on the ball to be able to establish the right path using a stun with outside?" For the shot in the video I'd want a pretty full hit but it is much easier to picture the hit I need with the ball out a bit, so I visualize that, then use the contact point on the hanging ball and it gets me very close. And by picking a contact point that works with a stun and one tip of sidespin I can get pretty consistent results instead of messing with actual draw which can easily be over or underdone.

Again, excellent explanation.

Finally, on the topic of rail first shots. Rail first shots add a variable and are in general more difficult to control. Now, there are many cases in which they also eliminate other challenges (speed of the hit, establishing the right angle with a rolling ball instead of draw, etc). If the rail first hit eliminates more challenges than it creates it is the right shot. There are clearly many, many times this is the case. And sometimes you need to play shape for an angle that sets up for a rail first hit. Maybe other balls force you to play shape along the rail, or it is the most natural position to obtain from the prior shot. In those cases, yes, know your rail first shots. They are common and should be totally comfortable.

But I wouldn't go so far as to say I prefer them. I can't remember ever shooting a rail first shot with ball in hand. My cue ball is pretty good so I usually get the angle I want, and I don't play rail first as often these days as I used to because I know the other hanging shots so well.

Dr. Dave pointed out that if you want to come out at an angle, play shape to be on a rail, if you want to come out along the rail, play shape for an angle. Do this when possible and you'll be able to get where you're going. If not go rail first and get the job done that way.

Excellent summary. Avoid rail-first shots when you can, but practice them so you can execute them well and with confidence when you need them. Sometimes they cannot be avoided.

OK, that's all I have for now. Mostly just cheering on a great video and celebrating the community we have on AZB. Lucky to be part of it!

I look forward to getting more advice and suggestions from you in the future. You seem to have an excellent mind for the game ... and skills to back it up.

Best regards,
Dave

 

[jay helfert]

I admit that I haven't watched the video yet. I've been on vacation and not so easy to watch it clearly on my phone. I'm sure there is a lot of good information here as Dave is right at the top with his instructional and tutorial videos.

I didn't mean to create a problem with my comment about going rail first on hangers. Shooting hangers is far more trickier than it looks and even the best players have gotten messed up playing position off them. Learning the rail first option (it takes practice) is very valuable for your game. Often times it is the best way to come off the object ball and get shape. Shooting directly at the edge of the object ball or drawing off it for shape is never a gimmee. Of course with BIH then it's much easier.

I think it was a good choice by Dave to educate players about this often overlooked shot. :thumbup2:

I will only add this tidbit of info if Dave hasn't already mentioned it. It's much easier to hit the edge of a hanger and play position when the cue ball is close to one of rails that attach to the pocket where the hanger is. If the cue ball is out in the table somewhere is where it gets harder to shoot off the edge of the ball.

 

[dr_dave]

There is one variation I want to add. It is the revere of the shot at 14:00 where he cuts the object ball in to the right side of pocket with extreme inside and comes two rails. In fact, it's similar to the shot at 14:37 where he cuts the ball to his left with high inside.

FYI, I just added the following to the original post to help people find the section of the video where I discuss and demonstrate this type of shot:

- inside follow vs. outside draw (4:25)

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I admit that I haven't watched the video yet. I've been on vacation and not so easy to watch it clearly on my phone. I'm sure there is a lot of good information here as Dave is right at the top with his instructional and tutorial videos.

Thanks Jay. I'll be curious to hear your thoughts after you get a chance to watch the video.

I didn't mean to create a problem with my comment about going rail first on hangers. Shooting hangers is far more trickier than it looks and even the best players have gotten messed up playing position off them. Learning the rail first option (it takes practice) is very valuable for your game. Often times it is the best way to come off the object ball and get shape. Shooting directly at the edge of the object ball or drawing off it for shape is never a gimmee. Of course with BIH then it's much easier.

I am glad you brought it up. It resulted in some excellent discussion and made me wish I had included a little more about rail-first shots (e.g., going rail-first to achieve a desirable CB path).

I will only add this tidbit of info if Dave hasn't already mentioned it. It's much easier to hit the edge of a hanger and play position when the cue ball is close to one of rails that attach to the pocket where the hanger is. If the cue ball is out in the table somewhere is where it gets harder to shoot off the edge of the ball.

If you are referring to the point of the pocket possibly getting in the way at certain angles (and with certain OB hanging locations in the pocket), I do cover that in a couple of places. Otherwise, I'm not sure I know what you mean. I do cover how to control the CB reliably both when shooting along a rail and when shooting from various directions from the middle of the table.

Thanks again for your input. I appreciate it.

Enjoy the rest of your vacation,
Dave

 

[Tin Man]

Dave, I think you're correct about what Jay is saying. When an object ball is deep in the jaws it's better to be laying along one of the connected rails to avoid the points of the pocket. Most of your video examples hinged on the ball being out a bit. If the ball is really hanging on one of those deep shelves Jay is absolutely right.

Another tidbit from Grady is to get close to those hanging balls. You don't want to be shooting something from 7' away because a slight mishit can really change the outcome. Try to get 2' away, you can hit them very accurately. And if they are deep in the jaws that is very important.

I think your video was great, but now I'm thinking a follow up for balls super deep and on one side of the pocket facing. Then again, if you made a video for every shot in pool you'd end up with a pretty big library. Oh wait, you have one!

 

[dr_dave]

Dave, I think you're correct about what Jay is saying. When an object ball is deep in the jaws it's better to be laying along one of the connected rails to avoid the points of the pocket. Most of your video examples hinged on the ball being out a bit. If the ball is really hanging on one of those deep shelves Jay is absolutely right.

That's what I thought, and I do address this in the video at the following points: 1:12,1:36, 5:02, and 13:45.

Another tidbit from Grady is to get close to those hanging balls. You don't want to be shooting something from 7' away because a slight mishit can really change the outcome. Try to get 2' away, you can hit them very accurately. And if they are deep in the jaws that is very important.

Good point. I address this at the 6:40 point in my "Top 10 Pool Strategy Errors Amateurs Make … and How to Prevent Them" video.

I think your video was great, but now I'm thinking a follow up for balls super deep and on one side of the pocket facing. Then again, if you made a video for every shot in pool you'd end up with a pretty big library. Oh wait, you have one!

I'm not in the mood to do another video on hangers; but in lieu of that, I've created a resource page with pertinent videos and supporting information, some from this thread (with a link to the thread). Here it is:

pocket hanger resource page

I think the page covers every important aspect of hangers quite well enough.

Thanks again to everybody for all of the great input and suggestions,
Dave

 

[cascader]

Higher speed hangers

I enjoyed the video and learned from it. One aspect I think could addressed a bit more is higher speed pocket hangers, such as when breaking a rack in 14.1. Most of the shots shown were not suitable for that.

 

[dr_dave]

I enjoyed the video and learned from it.

I'm glad to hear it.

One aspect I think could addressed a bit more is higher speed pocket hangers, such as when breaking a rack in 14.1. Most of the shots shown were not suitable for that.

I think the best approach for a shot like that is to just visualize the 90-degree-rule tangent-line direction you want, as I demonstrated in the video with the stun shots. A fast-speed shot will head in the tangent-line direction into the cushion, and come out at a similar angle (which can be adjusted with sidespin).

Regards,
Dave

 

[shasta777]

I think the info/comments given in this subject by ALL is priceless... as far as going rail first as Jay said... I guess it all depends on where all the balls are left on the table... & if there aren't many balls in the path... As for myself, I'd go ball first unless there is a good chance on scratching... if so then going rail first is good option...

I think the lower skilled players should go ball first as they may NOT be able to judge the speed as well as other skilled players... (A good rule of thumb may apply to try to get cue ball to center of table)... again all depending on where their next ball is they want to play next.

Regardless Dave... your video is great for ALL players... & as far as the length of videos... shorter is better if covering just one type of shot/subject.

Again, well done!!

 

[dr_dave]

I think the info/comments given in this subject by ALL is priceless... as far as going rail first as Jay said... I guess it all depends on where all the balls are left on the table... & if there aren't many balls in the path... As for myself, I'd go ball first unless there is a good chance on scratching... if so then going rail first is good option...

I think the lower skilled players should go ball first as they may NOT be able to judge the speed as well as other skilled players... (A good rule of thumb may apply to try to get cue ball to center of table)... again all depending on where their next ball is they want to play next.

Well stated.

Regardless Dave... your video is great for ALL players... & as far as the length of videos... shorter is better if covering just one type of shot/subject.

Again, well done!!

Thank you.

Regards,
Dave

 

[ShootingArts]

Works for me!

Does anybody agree with Jay on this? I am curious about what others think about going rail-first for position when it is not required (e.g., to avoid an obstacle ball or the point of the pocket).

Regards,
Dave

Works for me. I used to run into others that preferred rail first too.

If there is no more than a two ball gap between the object ball and the rail my first choice is to go rail first. It takes away any chance of scratching and with a little follow pretty much anywhere on the table is open when you go rail first.

I have only read the last few pages of the thread and haven't looked at the video. However with some people not familiar with coming off the rail I thought I would mention Jimmy's system. I think Jimmy Reid. The technique is no doubt somewhere in dave's library. It is very simple, look from the object ball to the nose of the rail the object ball is resting near. Find a target the same distance from the nose of the cushion out across the rail. Pick a spot somewhere along that line to shoot at. It might be something on the bed cloth, cushion, rail, or anything out there beyond the table that isn't moving. Naturally adjustments must be made for spin.

I try to use just a little follow to get the cue ball rolling ASAP. Using this simple method let me vastly extend how far off the rail a ball could be and me still go rail first. I don't know what the maximum distance would be for each player but I found four to six inches off the rail to be very doable and a surprise to my opponents.

Hu

 

[dr_dave]

Thank you for posting. When you get a chance, check out the video and resource page.

Regards,
Dave

PS: The system for aiming rail-first hits like this is here:
shallow-angle kick shot aiming system when the ball is close to the rail

Works for me. I used to run into others that preferred rail first too.

If there is no more than a two ball gap between the object ball and the rail my first choice is to go rail first. It takes away any chance of scratching and with a little follow pretty much anywhere on the table is open when you go rail first.

I have only read the last few pages of the thread and haven't looked at the video. However with some people not familiar with coming off the rail I thought I would mention Jimmy's system. I think Jimmy Reid. The technique is no doubt somewhere in dave's library. It is very simple, look from the object ball to the nose of the rail the object ball is resting near. Find a target the same distance from the nose of the cushion out across the rail. Pick a spot somewhere along that line to shoot at. It might be something on the bed cloth, cushion, rail, or anything out there beyond the table that isn't moving. Naturally adjustments must be made for spin.

I try to use just a little follow to get the cue ball rolling ASAP. Using this simple method let me vastly extend how far off the rail a ball could be and me still go rail first. I don't know what the maximum distance would be for each player but I found four to six inches off the rail to be very doable and a surprise to my opponents.

Hu