Poll: Should Jump Shots Be Banned?

[poolshrk]

Why should they be banned... if you don't want someone jumping freeze um... I think it is just another shot on the table like a masse'... Its just pool in my opinion... most people that think we shouldnt jump cant jump effectively and that is why they say it...

As far as divots... i have my own table and jump a lot and they aren't bad... Maybe a little chalk on the table, but its not bad....

 

[supergreenman]

I am perfectly happy with both jump shots and jump cues being legal. I use both a regular cue and a jump cue for different jump shots. I am also proficient at kicking and will select a kick shot when it is the best shot to take.

It takes skill and the "divot" in the cloth is in my opinion part of normal wear and tear (no pun intended).

I find the cloth will wear out faster from break shots than anywhere else on the table, by the time jump shots make a difference on the cloth the spot where people break is already worn thin or right through.

 

[JB Cases]

YES! I wish it was illegal! Although I jump, and can do it well, I would prefer to keep the ball on the face of the table and kick. I think the art of kicking has been lost since the jump shot became legal!

Jumping can be taught to anybody, regardless of their skill in a short amount of time. Learning how to use the rails and it's diamonds, takes years to perfect!

Being able to kick proficiently separates the men from the boys!::thumbup:

Also false. Kicking and Jumping are two separate aspects of the game. Anyone can learn to kick in five minutes. Kicking systems abound that teach someone to accurately measure kicks and from there it's developing the feel for how to adjust. Doesn't take years at all. Anyone who aspires to be more than a banger knows that they MUST learn to kick and jump and when to kick and when to jump.

The act of making the ball hop can be taught to anyone with a decent stroke in five minutes. So can teaching them to draw their ball. But just learning how to draw your ball doesn't make you good at it. Getting good at it takes practice to learn the nuance. Same with jumping using a jump cue.

As it happens I did a video today for a friend to teach him jumping. In that video he (and whoever I let watch it) will see how rusty I am. Even though I have probably shot more jump shots than anyone else on this forum (except for Shawn Putnam) I was still not getting the ball over the blocker for a lot of the shots. The reason was because I am out of shape when it comes to jump shots. I had to limber up and focus in order to start grooving on the shots.

Like I said in the post above EVERYONE here has action if you're not a pro player. Let me make a disclaimer so I don't hustled.

ANYONE who had more than ten posts in the past two years proclaiming that jump cues require no skill has action. I will bet my $50 to you $40 PER SHOT until one of us begs for mercy.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Jump cues suck.

Jump cues were invented for people who didn't want to take the time to educate themselves with kicking systems, who hates losing because they sucked at kicking, and basically gave a "get out of jail free" card, to the people who were put in unkickable positions. (takes more then 5 minutes to learn the different systems for the ones that involve some math or some of the 3 rail ones which are not about feel, but by the numbers and precise)

So now, instead of having to use their brain to move a ball to try and tie something up when kicking is out of the question, they just go airborne.

I not talking about MASTERING the jump shot and pocketing everything you aim at. I am talking about just hitting the ball from positions that would have traditionally given up BIH because no kick was there but a jump was.
Jumping a ball is a piece of cake. Hold it light, boom. It's those guys who give it the death grip that smash into the impeding ball. Some people have a hard time consciously gripping a cue lightly.

Doesn't the JOSS tour have a no jump cues rule.
It will be a pleasure to watch real nineball at Turning Stone for a change.
All those jump cue guys whiffing on kicks and crying about the no jump cue rule.
LOVE IT!

 

[nelldrake]

No. Because the penalty for not contacting the object ball is too great. Therefore the shooter should have every legal shot available.

Also it's simply a crowd pleaser. People like to see a well executed jump shot. They know it's hard and appreciate it when it works to get out of a tight spot.

It is, indeed, a crowd pleaser but I have seen many fantastic kick shots that pocketed the OB and it pleased me just as much as a jump shot. For the record, I voted "NO" on the banning issue for the same reasons as noted above by others.
Nell Drake

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Completely untrue. Jumping with a jump cue takes ability and it's learned and practiced ability.

Hate to disagree with you about anything cuz I like you so much but on this topic I have to.

I think I probably have more experience with this topic than anyone else on the forum since I introduced the Bunjee jumper in 1998 and spent about seven years after that giving exhibitions and lessons in the service of selling them.

I can guarantee you that I have seen PLENTY of people come to my booth and pick up a jump cue and NOT be able to jump balls without instruction. I quickly found out that I had to learn to teach how to jump with a jump cue in order to sell them. I promise you I have heard more than 100 times "this cue does not work" said by someone who picked it up and tried to jump with no clue what to do.

I have gone so far as to actually spend time fixing a person's regular pool stroke in order to get them to the point where they could execute the jump stroke. Plenty of people here have seen me do my thing at shows.

Jumping with a jump cue is definitely a skill. Try telling Shawn Putnam that it's not. I have taught professional players all the way down to APA 3s how to jump with skill.

Trying to jump balls with the regular cue is like trying to play pool with a broom stick. You can do it but your range of shots is severely limited. With a jump cue, as with a pool cue, the range of shots is limited ONLY to your skill.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, my friend. With a jump cue, the range of shots isn't limited to skill, it's limited to the jump cue itself.

Jumping and MAKING the ball might take a little practice, but hitting it is a flat-out joke. Even if we bet $50/shot on a hit, 90% of all shots would be a push, so it wouldn't mean much.

I'll leave it at that-- I know you're passionate about the topic since you sold jump cues and whatnot. I'm not passionate beyond thinking it's cake-easy to jump and hit a ball.... and I play 14.1 so it's not like I practice them. I can jump and make balls with my playing cue--- so these specialty cues are like Alien Sandwedges in golf---- ya know, the ones where it's impossible to NOT get out of the sand? Same thing, imo.

 

[Brozif]

Also false. Kicking and Jumping are two separate aspects of the game. Anyone can learn to kick in five minutes. Kicking systems abound that teach someone to accurately measure kicks and from there it's developing the feel for how to adjust. Doesn't take years at all. Anyone who aspires to be more than a banger knows that they MUST learn to kick and jump and when to kick and when to jump.

The act of making the ball hop can be taught to anyone with a decent stroke in five minutes. So can teaching them to draw their ball. But just learning how to draw your ball doesn't make you good at it. Getting good at it takes practice to learn the nuance. Same with jumping using a jump cue.

As it happens I did a video today for a friend to teach him jumping. In that video he (and whoever I let watch it) will see how rusty I am. Even though I have probably shot more jump shots than anyone else on this forum (except for Shawn Putnam) I was still not getting the ball over the blocker for a lot of the shots. The reason was because I am out of shape when it comes to jump shots. I had to limber up and focus in order to start grooving on the shots.

Like I said in the post above EVERYONE here has action if you're not a pro player. Let me make a disclaimer so I don't hustled.

ANYONE who had more than ten posts in the past two years proclaiming that jump cues require no skill has action. I will bet my $50 to you $40 PER SHOT until one of us begs for mercy.

You think that kicking is something you can learn in 5 minutes? I guess I should have had you as a coach! When you jump, you're generally jumping over a ball in a straight line. Many times when you kick it involves multiple rails and a lot of times it is required to bend the ball with spin. There are a hell of a lot more variables that are involved in kicking than there are in jumping!

You say you can teach a 3 skill level how to jump and to do it with skill. I believe you! I also believe that you can do it in an hour or so. Do you think you can teach that same 3 how to kick and do it well in that same amount of time? I'll never believe that!

I know that this is a very close and personal subject for you. You have to defend the jump shot, having introduced one of the best original jump cues. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill. Of course it does. What I'm saying is that it there is more skill in kicking than there is in jumping.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree!

 

[JB Cases]

Jump cues suck.

Jump cues were invented for people who didn't want to take the time to educate themselves with kicking systems, who hates losing because they sucked at kicking, and basically gave a "get out of jail free" card, to the people who were put in unkickable positions. (takes more then 5 minutes to learn the different systems for the ones that involve some math or some of the 3 rail ones which are not about feel, but by the numbers and precise)

So now, instead of having to use their brain to move a ball to try and tie something up when kicking is out of the question, they just go airborne.

I not talking about MASTERING the jump shot and pocketing everything you aim at. I am talking about just hitting the ball from positions that would have traditionally given up BIH because no kick was there but a jump was.
Jumping a ball is a piece of cake. Hold it light, boom. It's those guys who give it the death grip that smash into the impeding ball. Some people have a hard time consciously gripping a cue lightly.

Doesn't the JOSS tour have a no jump cues rule.
It will be a pleasure to watch real nineball at Turning Stone for a change.
All those jump cue guys whiffing on kicks and crying about the no jump cue rule.
LOVE IT!

That must have been Pat Fleming then because he invented the jump cue. He did it when two-foul nine ball was still in effect so I think it was more because he just figured out that jumping with a shorter cue was easier. Then of course Sammy Jones endorsed the Meucci jump cue and if anyone has ever tried one of those you need a TON of skill to use one. And it's a tiny bit ironic that if Joss Tour bans jump cues since Joss also came out with one of the first commercial jump cues endorsed by Mike Sigel in the late 80s.

Jump cues rock. Like kicking and banking systems they help a player to increase his arsenal of shots. And like kicking and banking systems if half-ass applied then the results will not be favorable. But when mastered then results are spectacular.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

better safeties

Perfect lock up safeties would eliminate jump shots Also my friend told me that a great thinker on this forum suggested that all jumping should be banned if you hook yourself !

Neat stuff.

 

[Brozif]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, my friend. With a jump cue, the range of shots isn't limited to skill, it's limited to the jump cue itself.

Jumping and MAKING the ball might take a little practice, but hitting it is a flat-out joke. Even if we bet $50/shot on a hit, 90% of all shots would be a push, so it wouldn't mean much.

I'll leave it at that-- I know you're passionate about the topic since you sold jump cues and whatnot. I'm not passionate beyond thinking it's cake-easy to jump and hit a ball.... and I play 14.1 so it's not like I practice them. I can jump and make balls with my playing cue--- so these specialty cues are like Alien Sandwedges in golf---- ya know, the ones where it's impossible to NOT get out of the sand? Same thing, imo.

I was in the middle of typing my response when you put yours up. I wasn't trying to copy your post.

It just goes to show that great minds think alike!:thumbup:

 

[JB Cases]

You think that kicking is something you can learn in 5 minutes? I guess I should have had you as a coach! When you jump, you're generally jumping over a ball in a straight line. Many times when you kick it involves multiple rails and a lot of times it is required to bend the ball with spin. There are a hell of a lot more variables that are involved in kicking than there are in jumping!

You say you can teach a 3 skill level how to jump and to do it with skill. I believe you! I also believe that you can do it in an hour or so. Do you think you can teach that same 3 how to kick and do it well in that same amount of time? I'll never believe that!

I know that this is a very close and personal subject for you. You have to defend the jump shot, having introduced one of the best original jump cues. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill. Of course it does. What I'm saying is that it there is more skill in kicking than there is in jumping.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree!

Yes. Most of the basic kicking systems can be learned in five minutes. And in those systems you are hitting the ball in a straight line to the first rail.

I didn't say you could MASTER kicking in five minutes. Please read my post a bit more carefully.

You said there is NO skill in jumping and that the cue does all the work. This is untrue. As to the degree of skill required here is how I define it.

In a normal shot you have to decide on the amount of speed and spin you are going to strike the cue ball with. On a jump shot you have to decide on the amount of speed and spin you are going to strike the cue ball with AND you have to figure out the angle you are going to use and the trajectory. So there are two more variables on top of what is already present with every shot. For a kick shot you have to decide on what speed and spin you will use and where to hit the first rail. How you decide on where to hit the first rail depends on your knowledge and experience. If you know a good kicking system then where to hit the first rail is fairly easy to determine. What happens after that has to do with your knowledge of the table/cloth/conditions.

The PROBLEM as I see it is that people want to make this an either/or proposition. Either kick shots or jump shots but not both.

That's a false premise.

The game is big enough for both and under the current rules both are needed to play it correctly. Any good player invests time to master both and they are foolish if they don't. Sure you could ban the jump cue but all that will do is diminish the quality of play as you will take away a lot of great shots that could have been used. You aren't adding any more shots as all kick shots are always there.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

There is no doubt that advanced kicking can take years to attain. Kicking to pocket balls, play safe or just hit the ball can sometimes be relatively easy and sometimes near impossible. Nobody learns to kick overnight.

As for jumping, there's a lot of skill necessary there too. I know people who have been playing pool for decades who still have problems jumping. It's definitely not easy. The problem I have is specifically with jump cues which is typically what most people have a problem with.

A slightly sub-par jumper can see immediate improvement with a jump cue. Jumping over half a ball with a foot of runway to pocket a ball down table used to require a great deal of skill and practice. With a jump cue, attaining the necessary height is practically out of the equation. You're then simply focusing on being accurate while jacked-up.

I'll admit, I have a pretty good jumper in my case and I'm confident I can use it effectively with as little as 6" of runway (not amazing but not bad). It opens up a world of shots for me, or should I say, it takes away a world of safeties from my opponents. That isn't to say I couldn't kick at these balls and still get positive results. What I am saying is, there is no doubt that jumping requires less preparation and thought than kicking. With a jump cue, my need to kick diminishes by at least 50%.

I think jump cue use should be restricted. It should never be used in 14.1 or 1hole (by rule). I have no problem with its use in barbox 8ball or any rotation game. My only stipulation for rotation games would be, you should only be allowed to begin your inning with a jump cue and later switch to your shooting cue, not the other way around. That way, you can jump out of your opponent's safeties but not your own position errors.

 

[labatt ice rod]

Jump shots no but jump cues yes and i will not get into that again

 

[alstl]

I would vote for a third category, jump shots allowed but only with a full cue.

 

[JB Cases]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, my friend. With a jump cue, the range of shots isn't limited to skill, it's limited to the jump cue itself.

Jumping and MAKING the ball might take a little practice, but hitting it is a flat-out joke. Even if we bet $50/shot on a hit, 90% of all shots would be a push, so it wouldn't mean much.

I'll leave it at that-- I know you're passionate about the topic since you sold jump cues and whatnot. I'm not passionate beyond thinking it's cake-easy to jump and hit a ball.... and I play 14.1 so it's not like I practice them. I can jump and make balls with my playing cue--- so these specialty cues are like Alien Sandwedges in golf---- ya know, the ones where it's impossible to NOT get out of the sand? Same thing, imo.

If we bet $50 a shot on the hit I will bust you. Ask Larry Nevel. I will set up a ton of shots where all you have to do is hit the object ball and you won't get there.

I am passionate about it because I understand the skill behind it even with the jump cue. I used to think that they were a joke gimmick also until I got into selling them and was FORCED to learn how to use them expertly.

I don't know about the sand wedges. I can pretty much assure you with a 1000% guarantee that I cannot get out of a sand trap with one of them. I can't even hit a golf ball in a straight line on the driving range. Now maybe if someone TAUGHT me how to swing then I could but right now, no chance.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yes. Most of the basic kicking systems can be learned in five minutes. And in those systems you are hitting the ball in a straight line to the first rail.

I didn't say you could MASTER kicking in five minutes. Please read my post a bit more carefully.

You said there is NO skill in jumping and that the cue does all the work. This is untrue. As to the degree of skill required here is how I define it.

In a normal shot you have to decide on the amount of speed and spin you are going to strike the cue ball with. On a jump shot you have to decide on the amount of speed and spin you are going to strike the cue ball with AND you have to figure out the angle you are going to use and the trajectory. So there are two more variables on top of what is already present with every shot. For a kick shot you have to decide on what speed and spin you will use and where to hit the first rail. How you decide on where to hit the first rail depends on your knowledge and experience. If you know a good kicking system then where to hit the first rail is fairly easy to determine. What happens after that has to do with your knowledge of the table/cloth/conditions.

The PROBLEM as I see it is that people want to make this an either/or proposition. Either kick shots or jump shots but not both.

That's a false premise.

The game is big enough for both and under the current rules both are needed to play it correctly. Any good player invests time to master both and they are foolish if they don't. Sure you could ban the jump cue but all that will do is diminish the quality of play as you will take away a lot of great shots that could have been used. You aren't adding any more shots as all kick shots are always there.

Another good analogy: Years ago the Ping Corporation released their first set of Ping Eye 2 golf clubs with deep, square grooves. Obviously touted as the latest and greatest in ball spinning technology, they caught on quick with the public. No one paid attention until one day Mark Calcavecchia was BURIED in rough so deep you couldn't see the ball. I forget the exact details on which club he hit, but he hit the green and the ball spun back off the green---- basically, an impossible shot based on the club he used.

Not long after, the PGA Tour moved quickly to ban square grooves, saying they provided far more spin than what was ever intended for the game of golf. There have also been dimple designs in golf balls that provided so much lift, they could add HUGE amounts of distance--- basically, turning the ball into a glider.

Someone can easily look at that and say, "Well, hey--- that's technology and how the game should evolve."

Others can look at that and say, ".... yeah, but is that what was originally intended when these courses were designed?"

At what point (and this is the TRUE debate) do you prohibit or limit technology to prevent certain skill shots from becoming obsolete? If you have a club that can super-spin ANY shot, how important is it to really hit the fairway?

..... if you have a cue that jumps ANYTHING... how important is position or good safety play?

 

[mm4pool]

i voted yes, but my vote is conditional. if it could be limited to persons proficeint in its use then fine jump away with a full length cue. too often though i walk into a room and see some joe schmuck trying to learn or impress thier girl and all they are doing is punching holes in cloth. you want to learn to jump, or even masse for that matter buy a table and do it at home. if i were a room owner they both would be outlawed, 1 warning then out the door. by the way both masse and jump shots are outlawed at my home. JMHO

Mike

 

[JB Cases]

Another good analogy: Years ago the Ping Corporation released their first set of Ping Eye 2 golf clubs with deep, square grooves. Obviously touted as the latest and greatest in ball spinning technology, they caught on quick with the public. No one paid attention until one day Mark Calcavecchia was BURIED in rough so deep you couldn't see the ball. I forget the exact details on which club he hit, but he hit the green and the ball spun back off the green---- basically, an impossible shot based on the club he used.

Not long after, the PGA Tour moved quickly to ban square grooves, saying they provided far more spin than what was ever intended for the game of golf. There have also been dimple designs in golf balls that provided so much lift, they could add HUGE amounts of distance--- basically, turning the ball into a glider.

Someone can easily look at that and say, "Well, hey--- that's technology and how the game should evolve."

Others can look at that and say, ".... yeah, but is that what was originally intended when these courses were designed?"

At what point (and this is the TRUE debate) do you prohibit or limit technology to prevent certain skill shots from becoming obsolete? If you have a club that can super-spin ANY shot, how important is it to really hit the fairway?

..... if you have a cue that jumps ANYTHING... how important is position or good safety play?

I agree. But the thing is that the BCA and WPA evaluated the cues and adopted the current rules 15 years ago. The current rules allow for the cues as long as they are made within the specifications. And jump cues have not changed much in those 15 years.

No jump cue jumps the ball by itself. The golf analogy has been talked about before and one of the reasons that dimpled balls aren't allowed is that long distance balls wreck course design just like corked bats do to stadiums. Jump cues don't make it necessary to change the playing field.

When the incoming player has a jump cue and is good with it then safety play is huge. You can't get away with sloppy safes by simply ducking ANYWHERE behind a ball. Players are forced to learn better and tighter safes. I am not sure what you mean by position play though. I doubt anyone wants to ever have to shoot a jump shot so people don't deliberately play position on them except in desperate situations.

 

[Mickey Qualls]

.......... With a jump cue, the range of shots isn't limited to skill, it's limited to the jump cue itself.
Jumping and MAKING the ball might take a little practice, but hitting it is a flat-out joke. Even if we bet $50/shot on a hit, 90% of all shots would be a push, so it wouldn't mean much.........

+1..........

One of the last times I was in Las Vegas for the BCA Nationals, Robin Dodson ("Robroy" in the forums) was promoting the "Frog". I'd never jumped before, so I was intrigued that she could show me "within a couple of minutes".
Lo and behold, I was able to perform a jump shot shortly after being instructed on the grip and stance........... I didn't come anywhere near the 2-9 combo she had me aiming at, though :grin:. After a few more tries, I had slightly better control............

Bought a Jacoby Jump Daddy, and I'm pretty accurate with that. Maybe it's the G-10 tip, but I can jump and pocket a ball with more consistency now.

Jump shot, no jump shot, jump cue, no jump cue......... all that shouldn't matter, everybody's playing by the same rules...........

All that being said, for me, I liken my jump cue to a can of Fix-O-Flat : It's there for me if I have no other options...........

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I agree. But the thing is that the BCA and WPA evaluated the cues and adopted the current rules 15 years ago. The current rules allow for the cues as long as they are made within the specifications. And jump cues have not changed much in those 15 years.

No jump cue jumps the ball by itself. The golf analogy has been talked about before and one of the reasons that dimpled balls aren't allowed is that long distance balls wreck course design just like corked bats do to stadiums. Jump cues don't make it necessary to change the playing field.

When the incoming player has a jump cue and is good with it then safety play is huge. You can't get away with sloppy safes by simply ducking ANYWHERE behind a ball. Players are forced to learn better and tighter safes. I am not sure what you mean by position play though. I doubt anyone wants to ever have to shoot a jump shot so people don't deliberately play position on them except in desperate situations.

If someone plays a GOOD safe and puts you within a ball or ball and a half of the impeding ball--- should you be able to jump that?

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be able to--- regardless of the cue.