That’s too bad. The only 2 rooms I have been to in your area are Shooters and CR’s. CR’s has one 9 footer, right? Obviously I expect more interest in 7’ tables etc... but would expect rooms in an area with good interest in pool to have more 9’ interest. I saw when Shooters was selling the GCs, but sorta thought that might mean 9’ diamonds.
Pool in Europe vs USA: 7-foot vs 9-foot tables
- Thread starter mikepage
- Start date
When I was a rookie pool player in the ‘80’s, the places where those under 21 could play were all 9’. As we turned 21, bars and leagues and tournaments at bars were available. Now I am not a top player, etc... but what I noticed then was that “bar players” couldn’t practice and couldn’t play straight pool. Table time was $1.50, but how can you spot balls or do drills/ practice feeding quarters? So naturally good bar table players were probably familiar with 9’ tables at a pool hall. This was when most 9’ tables were GC and the 7’ were Valleys.
Diamond came along and made it so 9’ tables might be coin op and 7’ tables might be on time. I viewed the bar table issue as more of a coin-op and had to be over 21 issue rather than a size issue as far as player development. Not that 7’ was preferable, but maybe there were other factors.
The data Mike Page posted today is interesting. As he points out there is a player development problem somewhere. It probably isn’t in the space between 100”x50” and the 80”x40” of a Diamond or Valley bar table. As we suspect, it is probably somewhere in the culture. What specific things cause it and how might we address it? I am not sure. I like both one pocket and bar table 8ball, so I dunno.
It's seems there's not a disconnect between professional pool in Europe or somewhere like the Philippines and the amateur ranks. It's just all on one continuous spectrum. In the U.S., you probably have something like 90 plus percent of the amateur players that have zero aspirations of becoming professionals and don't even care about professional pool. Everyone looks down on this large percentage of players, but they have actually figured out how to have fun playing the game without having to commit so much time to it. So they may just be the smart ones.
Comparing a population of non-serious players to a more serious population of similar size is going to pose problems. I know that's not exactly what Mike is doing here but that tends to get lost in the details whenever we talk about how many people play pool in the U.S.
Comparing a population of non-serious players to a more serious population of similar size is going to pose problems. I know that's not exactly what Mike is doing here but that tends to get lost in the details whenever we talk about how many people play pool in the U.S.
I’ve been thinking about your post. What might help in this area that would somehow fit with the American pool culture and the current situation?
As a player over 700 Fargo in MN I can tell you why I don't play many others (well, I do in non-reporting cheap sets at my house). I am not allowed to play in the majority of local events and won't sign up for handicapped tournaments. This leaves me a handful of maybe 2-3 tournaments a year that are open with no handicap that I can play. Then they are all on bar tables (not my preference) and I play 99% of my pool on big tables. So I am not used to the 7's and the rhythm of 8 ball. I used to play leagues but they broke up my team because they didn't want more than two players that were 'masters' on the same team.
So I can watch from the sidelines for months at a time, play some handicapped tournaments I never win because the spots are too big for me, and then play an event every 4-6 months after I haven't looked at a bar table 8 ball pattern forever and am totally out of rhythm, only to play the same 8 players in a tiny field because no one under 675FR wants to play open tournaments when they can wait until a 650 and under which results in no prize money when I'm playing at 80% of my old game.
Yeah, hard pass.
Instead I play out of state only. I'll be at Derby City where I can play on big tables with no handicap. I'll quit pool or practice straight pool in my basement for fun on a real table before I go return to a MN poolhall.
I don't know for sure but I don't think this is the scene overseas.
Nope! Many Olympic Athletes work full time or part time jobs and still compete and perform at and elite level. The notion that you cant play professional level Pool and work is misguided.
How many 800+ Fargos do you know that are holding a 40 hour a week job?
Maybe they got to 800, quit and started working. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking for examples of your players that were 700+ while working and part time competed their way to 800.
I don't see any examples.
I spar regularly with some of the top players in the area. Sometimes for fun, sometimes $50-100 a set.
You just don't hear about it because I'm not making posters with 20k in the middle and streaming it on social media.
We only see what we see, so we don't see anything we don't see. Doesn't mean it's not there.
I take significant issue with this statement. It's more like 99.9% of amateurs that have no interest in becoming professional
. Which is as it should be. Somebody has to have a job. Somebody has to go fishing twice a year (and wish to go more often). Somebody has to go see live music. To pay the opportunity cost and forego all the other competing entertainment activities in order to become a professional at this game is a suspect proposition. Look, we are lucky we found an engaging and challenging game that can be conveniently played after work. In the end, whether you are Josh Filler, or some 300 rated bar player, it's still just a game that involves pushing small balls around with sticks. The game is challenging enough that it will accept all the energy one is willing to devote to it and more. But in the end, it's really about enjoying your time on this god forsaken cosmic rock we call home. I've enjoyed my time in the table. I'm a mediocre player, Fargo clocks me around 650 or thereabouts last I checked. But even I have started to wonder if even this low level of proficiency has been worth it.
Wait a minute. Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. So someone once said.
It's lonely at the top huh? Lol, in all seriousness, id love to do your boot camp one day. I just put my nine foot diamond into storage due to divorce. Now, THAT sux
I was giving the benefit of the doubt to all the bangers that "could be pros if they r-e-a-l-l-y wanted to." But if you're going to be a stickler, the actual number of players that don't care is 98.7.I take significant issue with this statement. It's more like 99.9% of amateurs that have no interest in becoming professional
The game is challenging enough that it will accept all the energy one is willing to devote to it and more. But in the end, it's really about enjoying your time on this god forsaken cosmic rock we call home. I've enjoyed my time in the table. I'm a mediocre player, Fargo clocks me around 650 or thereabouts last I checked. But even I have started to wonder if even this low level of proficiency has been worth it.
Wait a minute. Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted. So someone once said.
How many bar bangers can dance on the head of a pin?
Real table—?——relax. 7 footers, 8 footers and even 6 footers ( I have an olhausen 6 that is one of the funnest tables I have played on in over 40 years ) are all absolutely real tables. Pool is a game. Games are designed to be fun. Please remember not everyone is a 700 plus fargo, matter of fact by percentage of players in that population, most aren’t. And most players don’t play for life changing income.
Hey White, don’t worry, I’m quite relaxed.
You’re absolutely right. All tables are real, all can be fun games.
I don’t think it’s black and white. You could have an 8’, a 7’, a 6’. I suppose you could make a 2x4 table as well. Or a 12” toy table. Or maybe a phone app where you can play video 8 ball online.
They are all real games and they all have overlapping skills. I suppose there isn’t a point at which it is no longer real pool.
But we get to have our preferences. If they took all the 7’s out of your pool room and replaced them with 4’ tables you might be disappointed. Still pool, but many of the things you love about the game are lost. And no matter how popular they become you might prefer to play on 7’s.
So yes, play the game you like and May it bring you joy. I’ll do the same.
I’ve been there. Bad for your game in the short term, good in the long term. Think of it as an investment, a 401k for your run out game.It's lonely at the top huh? Lol, in all seriousness, id love to do your boot camp one day. I just put my nine foot diamond into storage due to divorce. Now, THAT sux
Hope to cross paths one day!
Your scenario CAN happen, but it is not the norm, especially today. Used to be, all American Olympic athletes were amateur athletes, which meant other than a residency at the Olympic training center in Colorado Springs, they were likely collegiate athletes. Now? Let's look at the most popular Summer Olympic Sports.
Many Collegiate Swimmers are still collegiate athletes, but the huge names, like Phelps, are sponsored and training and competitions are their jobs.
Track and field is the same. Many collegiate, but the big names, get paid millions in sponsorships and show money to various meets. Recent 100 m champ, Noah Lyles, is worth at least 5 million. Usain Bolt is worth 90 million. How many pool players are in that league?
Basketball...the Dream Team ain't working a 9-5 job.
Golf- Mainly PGA pros.
Tennis- Mainly WTA pros.
GYmnastics- Either collegiate or younger who home school and spend 8-10 hours daily in the gym.
Your argument may hold water for secondary sports like synchronized swimming or table tennis, but not for the main sports. It also reinforces my original statement. The reason we can't compete with the chinese in table tennis is because their athletes DONT have to have supplemental income.
The idea, that someone can work a 40, and be good at it, while playing elite level pool, is delusional.
It's wild how many people think "it could be me" or "it could be someone like me" hanging with the best in the world. No it couldn't.
The closest you'll get is some hyper-talented person who has shown elite promise since childhood, neglects their job and their family in adulthood, and is rewarded with being competitive with lower level pros. Think Stewart Hagestad in golf. He has a fake job, an extensive tournament schedule, and practices every day, and he would get boatraced on the PGA Tour.
We don't have good data in Georgia, so we are not even close to being able to use Georgia in any kind of meaningful comparison. However, my sense is that serious tournaments and serious play in Georgia is on 9-foot tables, not 7-foot. Look at Mr Cues II in Atlanta with I think 21 9-foot tables, and peruse the events in Georgia Pool Tournaments on facebook. I think Georgia/South Carolina/North Carolina look down their nose at "bar table" play. It is not like the upper midwest.
Netherlands is unique because it is so close to get basically anywhere in the country. The population densities are interesting.
Sweden 26 people per square kilometer
Minnesconsin 33 people per square kilometer
Georgia 55 people per square kilometer
Netherlands 520 people per square kilometer
There's few players that respect the game and deserve our respect as much as Mr Tin Man. He has 3,000 games in FargoRate with 547 of them against opponents over 700 on a 7-foot table and 917 of them against opponents over 700 on a 9-foot table. His "performance rating" for those 7-foot table games and those 9-foot table games are both 735 within 2 points. Here are his over-700 opponents.