Pool in Europe vs USA: 7-foot vs 9-foot tables

[ShortBusRuss]

Not sure why you are telling me this. I have no ill will towards him nor you. I will say that every one has thoughts about the game we all love. I think the entire fargo system is no good for pool. Call me old school. Call me whatever you like. I’m 60 and grew up without it. And I haven’t seen anything good come from it.

He'strying to show you that there is no effective difference in measurement of overall pool ability on a 7 foot table, versus a 9 foot table.

And for the record, Fargorate is a rating system that very much patterns itself off of something like the U.S. Chess Federation/FIDE ratings. These ratings are basically SOLELY responsible for keeping chess ticking. You don't like it, because it takes away from the halcyon "gambling days" of pool, that I am just gonna say bluntly... Are in the past.

That entire era depended on road warriors hiding their skill, and basically stealing from players who had absolutely no chance to beat them. Well, guess what? Those days as I said, are over. There are too many cameras, video devices, and information travels way too fast. So you can rail against the changing times, and shake your fist at the sky, but it's not gonna change anything.

What keeps chess humming along is young talent, and that young talent is pretty darned motivated in the beginning by nothing more than making that rating number move up. The problem with pool in America is that we are WAY too focused on money as the primary driver to play a competitive game. It is not that way in most of Europe, and they end up GETTING the money (such as it is..) by having an infrastructure built around measurable improvement, rather than amateurs feeling they "have to have money on the line" to have a motivation to improve.

As long as amateur American players continue to focus on gambling as "the life blood of pool", we will continue to lag farther and farther behind. This promotes a mindset where, if there is no action... They are not gonna practice.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

Exactly. The Finnish scoring system biljardi.org and frequently used cuescore are not linked to Fargo. It’s a shame really because the player and match data exists.

Well, for the record... Fargorate has been importing tournament results from cuescore for a specific tournament series run out of our club in Germany. I actually wrote a script that spit out German league results in a format that would ingest seamlessly into Fargorate, and it never really went anywhere with Mike and his team. I told them they could keep the script, and it is a simple enough thing to have it reiterate logically through the league data for all of Hessen with a few tweaks, but Fargorate is a for-profit business, and there is not much "immediate" gain for such work...

 

[ShortBusRuss]

As a player over 700 Fargo in MN I can tell you why I don't play many others (well, I do in non-reporting cheap sets at my house). I am not allowed to play in the majority of local events and won't sign up for handicapped tournaments. This leaves me a handful of maybe 2-3 tournaments a year that are open with no handicap that I can play. Then they are all on bar tables (not my preference) and I play 99% of my pool on big tables. So I am not used to the 7's and the rhythm of 8 ball. I used to play leagues but they broke up my team because they didn't want more than two players that were 'masters' on the same team.

So I can watch from the sidelines for months at a time, play some handicapped tournaments I never win because the spots are too big for me, and then play an event every 4-6 months after I haven't looked at a bar table 8 ball pattern forever and am totally out of rhythm, only to play the same 8 players in a tiny field because no one under 675FR wants to play open tournaments when they can wait until a 650 and under which results in no prize money when I'm playing at 80% of my old game.

Yeah, hard pass.

Instead I play out of state only. I'll be at Derby City where I can play on big tables with no handicap. I'll quit pool or practice straight pool in my basement for fun on a real table before I go return to a MN poolhall.

I don't know for sure but I don't think this is the scene overseas.

Here in Germany, the league setup is 100% on 9 footers, and they have a tiered league setup similar to soccer, where you join a "Liga" team at whatever level, and you and your teammates attempt to win the league session. If you do so, your entire team gets graduated to the next Liga level. And the same thing happens at the next level. All the way up to Bundesliga, where you are playing at the national level. Pretty much any game/sport in the entire country is organized this way. Nothing like BCA/APA leagues exists here. And most clubs serve alcohol, so the concept of "play a league match, and drink with friends" still exists here... But this system supports the serious and non-serious players within the same framework, so there is ALWAYS a progression path... It is a point of pride for the club to have multiple higher tier teams, and this will often draw in new players from the area. Clubs will host training sessions for different levels in an effort to keep the overall club skill level progressing.

Even in the top non-pro Liga level, you do see some hundred ball runs in the 14.1 matches, from time to time. The matches include 8 bal, 9 ball, 10 ball, and 14.1. Each member of a 4 player team plays two matches per match day. We have multiple guys in my podunk little club that are 675+ Fargorate. And there is hardly ever any gambling over 20€ a set, no matter the level of players.

We are even starting to get Diamond tables here in Germany. I have a super tight one from a Eurotour event, and my club is currently replacing all our beat up Gold Crowns with all Diamonds.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

I’ve been thinking about your post. What might help in this area that would somehow fit with the American pool culture and the current situation?

Within current American pool culture? There's little hope. So long as good players see each other as someone who can "take something away from them", they are not gonna play each other, and will avoid tournaments with the stiffest competition. Gambling culture is exactly what is holding Americans back. Before someone says it... It's not the same as in the Phillipines. That is a country with a ton of poverty, and there is little other recourse for them to make a living. And even there... They too are losing our to the better organization of the Euros.

American "pool culture" needs a complete reworking from the ground up to see any improvement. Which, due to the profitability of BCA/APA league system, is not likely to ever happen.

Fargorate is a small ray of light, as it gives a solid rating system that provides a mechanism for lesser players to play better players, and a real way to measure improvement, although one may continue to lose every set. If we can promote the mindset that Fargorate ratings are something to pursue improvement in, just for the sake of proving to yourself that you are getting better, it could provide enough interest for more FR events, which would hopefully give enough competition to spark the competitive juices of those with enough interest.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

How many 800+ Fargos do you know that are holding a 40 hour a week job?

Maybe they got to 800, quit and started working. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking for examples of your players that were 700+ while working and part time competed their way to 800.

I don't see any examples.

Steve Mizerak. Irving Crane. A number of others from that era. Nowadays, not too many. Cost of living was a lot less in those days, but they still DID work full time jobs. So the issue is not necessarily whether there is enough time.. It's that the American middle class has gotten poorer and poorer, and it's not as easy to afford a place with room for a table, given what people are making today, and how much rent/mortgages are.

 

[Jimmorrison]

As a player over 700 Fargo in MN I can tell you why I don't play many others (well, I do in non-reporting cheap sets at my house). I am not allowed to play in the majority of local events and won't sign up for handicapped tournaments. This leaves me a handful of maybe 2-3 tournaments a year that are open with no handicap that I can play. Then they are all on bar tables (not my preference) and I play 99% of my pool on big tables. So I am not used to the 7's and the rhythm of 8 ball. I used to play leagues but they broke up my team because they didn't want more than two players that were 'masters' on the same team.

So I can watch from the sidelines for months at a time, play some handicapped tournaments I never win because the spots are too big for me, and then play an event every 4-6 months after I haven't looked at a bar table 8 ball pattern forever and am totally out of rhythm, only to play the same 8 players in a tiny field because no one under 675FR wants to play open tournaments when they can wait until a 650 and under which results in no prize money when I'm playing at 80% of my old game.

Yeah, hard pass.

Instead I play out of state only. I'll be at Derby City where I can play on big tables with no handicap. I'll quit pool or practice straight pool in my basement for fun on a real table before I go return to a MN poolhall.

I don't know for sure but I don't think this is the scene overseas.

I’m curious as to what handicap system puts you out of contention. Every system or tournament I’ve seen, still leaves the better players with a significant edge.

 

[JPB2]

Steve Mizerak. Irving Crane. A number of others from that era. Nowadays, not too many. Cost of living was a lot less in those days, but they still DID work full time jobs. So the issue is not necessarily whether there is enough time.. It's that the American middle class has gotten poorer and poorer, and it's not as easy to afford a place with room for a table, given what people are making today, and how much rent/mortgages are.

Wikipedia has Mizerak qualifying for the world straight pool championships in 1965 at age 20, where he had wins over Lassiter, Crane, and Balsis. College graduation was in 1967. He did exhibitions at 6 and ran 100 by 13. He didn’t start teaching as the equivalent of a 720 and have evenings and weekends take him to championship level. As Tin Man said, you can play at top level then get a full time job, but getting to that level while holding a full time job is a different deal.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

This discussion actually pushed me to finally get there. This count is about right.
They have Gabriel's 9' tables, which I have never played before. The rail shape was a little odd and it wasn't very clean, but DROP POCKETS!!! I'd ask for their pro cut table if I go back.
I'd put Two Stooges between Jimmy's and Shooters in every category. Sucks that I live in the south metro...

Nothing wrong with playing on buckets
Feature table does play great.
I like the big drop pockets on the Gabriel's. They can almost hold a full rack!

 

[Tin Man]

Steve Mizerak. Irving Crane. A number of others from that era. Nowadays, not too many. Cost of living was a lot less in those days, but they still DID work full time jobs. So the issue is not necessarily whether there is enough time.. It's that the American middle class has gotten poorer and poorer, and it's not as easy to afford a place with room for a table, given what people are making today, and how much rent/mortgages are.

Hey Russ, thanks for the reply!

I have a couple of problems with the example of Irving Crane and Steve Mizerak.

One is that my next sentence was this: "Maybe they got to 800, quit and started working. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking for examples of your players that were 700+ while working and part time competed their way to 800." Well, I know for a fact that Steve Mizerak got to the highest level by the time he was 20, well before he was a full time teacher. So while he competed at the highest level while holding a job, he didn't reach that level by holding a job.

Secondly, this was 50 years ago or in Irving's case 70-80 years ago. Things have changed. The competition has gotten both stronger and much deeper. These points are more debatable of course. But look at players similar to Mizerak that reached a high level and then played part time. He compares to guys like John Schmidt at his best. Imagine if there were only 3-5 players in the world over 800 Fargo Rate. He guys could still be competitive. But now we have 30-50 over 800, and the world top 100 are 789+.

And while some of my supporting points could be debated as to their importance, the fact remains you don't see any players at the highest level holding full time jobs in the last 10-20 years. We can discuss theory of what is possible or what was possible 50-100 years ago, but to me the reality of what we see when we look at today's landscape speaks for itself.

 

[sudocrushms]

Nothing wrong with playing on buckets
Feature table does play great.
I like the big drop pockets on the Gabriel's. They can almost hold a full rack!

Oh, I prefer drop pockets. I meant i didn't really like the really rounded rails, but liked the table having buckets. Yeah, they are absolutely enormous. Love tables with small pockets and giant buckets.

 

[CageyCraigey]

because they want to get better.. if there's not enough good competitive practice, then move or commute to where the competition is. at least two of the four spanish top players moved to practice with the others.. practice, not beat each other up for $$.

I think there is a European history of doing that. Going back in time, I saw an interview with Australian Snooker player, Eddie Charlton from 1980 where he said he knew if he wanted to join the elites of snooker he had to move primarily to the UK to regularly play and practice against and with them. Even in my own career, I moved from the UK to the US because I wanted to do what I was good at as much as possible.

A little footnote about Eddie was although by this time he was a BBC Snooker commentator, he only dropped ut of the top 50 snooker players in the world in 1994 when he was already 65 and by then he was very much involved in promoting 9 ball pool and becoming very skilled at that, so that he was still playing in tournaments in his early 70's.

I always liked his playing style, attitude and got a lot out reading his books and listening to his commentary. "Steady Eddie" as he was known the inspiration for my nickname: "Cagey Craigey!"

 

[King T]

How many 800+ Fargos do you know that are holding a 40 hour a week job?

Maybe they got to 800, quit and started working. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking for examples of your players that were 700+ while working and part time competed their way to 800.

I don't see any examples.

You cant use 800 as a point of measurement when theres only a few people in the world at the 800 level, those are the elite. The measuring point is 700 to 750 and there are hundreds of players in the 700 range that work and could achieve the next level and at 720+ that would out them in elite company.

 

[BasementDweller]

Within current American pool culture? There's little hope. So long as good players see each other as someone who can "take something away from them", they are not gonna play each other, and will avoid tournaments with the stiffest competition. Gambling culture is exactly what is holding Americans back. Before someone says it... It's not the same as in the Phillipines. That is a country with a ton of poverty, and there is little other recourse for them to make a living. And even there... They too are losing our to the better organization of the Euros.

American "pool culture" needs a complete reworking from the ground up to see any improvement. Which, due to the profitability of BCA/APA league system, is not likely to ever happen.

Fargorate is a small ray of light, as it gives a solid rating system that provides a mechanism for lesser players to play better players, and a real way to measure improvement, although one may continue to lose every set. If we can promote the mindset that Fargorate ratings are something to pursue improvement in, just for the sake of proving to yourself that you are getting better, it could provide enough interest for more FR events, which would hopefully give enough competition to spark the competitive juices of those with enough interest.

I think you have a pretty good feel for the state of U.S. pool but I really don't think our gambling culture has much to do with our decline anymore. I think that ship has sailed. I think our problem at this point is really simple -- pool is more fun for amateurs than pros. Eliminate all gambling and pool is still more fun for amateurs, if not even more so.

If we could snap our fingers and switch the U.S. over to a club model would that even work? I really don't have a clue. I just don't think most players are all that interested in playing great pool here. The thing is -- I don't blame them. Pool may just be the greatest hobby there is but playing at the highest level has been a losing proposition for 99 percent of the players that have done it. And that pursuit is definitely not just a hobby.

Then there's bar table pool. I'm as guilty as anyone of railing against bar tables, but the truth is -- it makes more sense for amateurs to play on them. I think they are a fine test of skill for anyone under say -- 700 FR. Why would the U.S. give that up? So we can produce a handful more pros players, while thousands upon thousands of amateurs quit playing altogether? It just doesn't make sense. Guess I just don't care anymore where the great players come from and I'm perfectly happy having a very healthy amateur environment.

 

[Tin Man]

You cant use 800 as a point of measurement when theres only a few people in the world at the 800 level, those are the elite. The measuring point is 700 to 750 and there are hundreds of players in the 700 range that work and could achieve the next level and at 720+ that would out them in elite company.

Fair enough. It sounds like we are in agreement on what is possible. I agree that you can reach 700-750 Fargo while working a job, and it sounds like you agree that 800 would be out of range without going full time.

The only area we didn't see the same was where we draw the pro line. Players in the 700-750 range aren't in contention to win a major event like a Derby or a Matchroom or a World Championship. So when I was thinking of pro players I was thinking of players that had a chance to win titles. If you extend pro to mean 700+ then I get your point.

 

[InsertCleverNameHere]

The term pro means such different things to different people. It SHOULD mean someone who relies solely on PLAYING the game for a living. This can be done at various levels with action of course but in today's world it's not exactly viable to GRIND so to speak like it used to be. So having said that you better be good enough to finish top 8-12 in the larger events you play or top 4 or so in the smaller ones. Unless you have a tremendous sponsor who covers everything and let's face it, you have to be truly world class for that. Really and truly you should be one of the handful of favorites in regional(open) tournaments. This is just my opinion of course. What Fargo level that requires depends a lot on what levels we are talking about. The large televised events it's probably north of 780 to have a reasonable chance at top 16, even higher if you truly want a chance at a trophy. The regional(open) events it's probably 730-750 and in some spots that might not even be good enough. I think someone can play "professionally" in the 750 range but they certainly cannot hang at the biggest events to the point of returning a profit, out of the question.

Sorry if it was rambling, I'm wiped.

 

[zetetikos]

Here is a comparison of two regions you may find interesting

Does most of Sweden report to Fargo? Would that effect it? Here in netherlands the local tournaments dont report, the league play doesn't report, only the Knbb regional ranking and championships report, we are talking 4-7 tournaments a year report. How does that effect local Fargo's?

 

[King T]

Fair enough. It sounds like we are in agreement on what is possible. I agree that you can reach 700-750 Fargo while working a job, and it sounds like you agree that 800 would be out of range without going full time.

The only area we didn't see the same was where we draw the pro line. Players in the 700-750 range aren't in contention to win a major event like a Derby or a Matchroom or a World Championship. So when I was thinking of pro players I was thinking of players that had a chance to win titles. If you extend pro to mean 700+ then I get your point.

Yeah your right about winning the major events . I hope that we see a resurgence of players trying to make the transition to that +750 range, but I fear that there won't be enough Money to motivate the right group of youngsters?

 

[markjames]

with garbage handicapping based on some bogus ratings.

i wonder if you know who is posting in this thread?

I think the entire fargo system is no good for pool

i don’t have a system # myself but it’s clear
that fargo has been great for pool

 

[skogstokig]

Yeah your right about winning the major events . I hope that we see a resurgence of players trying to make the transition to that +750 range, but I fear that there won't be enough Money to motivate the right group of youngsters?

money is bumping up in pro pool, so now is a good time in that regard. problem is, every talented prospect in philippines and taiwan and the rest of the world is thinking the same thing. i think both of those trends will continue, money getting bigger, competition getting tougher. "you have to wanna", to quote george carlin

 

[mikepage]

Does most of Sweden report to Fargo? Would that effect it? Here in netherlands the local tournaments dont report, the league play doesn't report, only the Knbb regional ranking and championships report, we are talking 4-7 tournaments a year report. How does that effect local Fargo's?

Part of the reason we tend to do comparisons for high-level play is we're confident we have sufficient coverage. There is, by the way, more play in the system from Netherlands than you realize. There are probably more than a hundred tournaments from 2024 alone. These numbers next to the ratings below are the games from just that last two years for each player.