Pool in Europe vs USA: 7-foot vs 9-foot tables
- Thread starter mikepage
- Start date
cool. but wouldn't the numbers, and therefore the validity, be different with for example finland? sweden feels a little cherry picked (not dissing sweden, i am swedish). i guess you could take say georgia and the netherlands as well, and end up with wildly different numbers.
Badpenguin
Well-known member
So, my question is...
Is there a reason that the high/elite European players play one another more than the US players?
Is there a reason that the high/elite European players play one another more than the US players?
This is the most interesting post I have seen in a long time. Thank you, Mike Page.
kollegedave
kollegedave
because they want to get better.. if there's not enough good competitive practice, then move or commute to where the competition is. at least two of the four spanish top players moved to practice with the others.. practice, not beat each other up for $$.
In my experience, its a matter of gambling.
Very interesting thread! I think a big factor in getting those players to "elite" level is the ability to make a guaranteed, consistent living at their craft. Having to work 40 hours a week and then put in the practice required to get to 800 is a big ask for that regional pro...
Interesting comparison for sure. As someone in Wisconsin it's particularly interesting for me. We do have a lot of 7' table play happening around here. Every tournament I've played in has been on 7' tables even though my weekly league is played on 9' tables, but that league doesn't report to Fargo.
This data validates my intuition.
Bar table pool is largely keeping pool alive in the US.
Bar table pool doesn't prevent players from getting good. (Around 700 level).
Once a bar table player reaches 700 level, they have very little incentive to get better.
One really HUGE (use Trump voice) variable not being measured is:
Almost all the great bar table players I know -- practice exclusively on 9 foot tables.
Bar table pool is largely keeping pool alive in the US.
Bar table pool doesn't prevent players from getting good. (Around 700 level).
Once a bar table player reaches 700 level, they have very little incentive to get better.
One really HUGE (use Trump voice) variable not being measured is:
Almost all the great bar table players I know -- practice exclusively on 9 foot tables.
Also to piggyback on what the brilliant BasementDweller said.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what nearly all top tier players say and think about bar tables. They have all been dismissive of them. I think it was data such as what was presented here, that pushed CSI years ago to have "US Open" level tourneys on bar tables but yet when Thorsten Hohmann won one, he qualified his win since it was on a bar table. If the intuition of ALL the professional players doesn't match up with the data, there may still be a problem with the data.
I've never ran across a single great bar table player that didn't think playing on 9 foot tables made them better. Not one. Yet I know great bar table players that NEVER practice on bar tables.
I really suspect the fact that FargoRate captures competition data but not practice data can paint an unrealistic picture.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss what nearly all top tier players say and think about bar tables. They have all been dismissive of them. I think it was data such as what was presented here, that pushed CSI years ago to have "US Open" level tourneys on bar tables but yet when Thorsten Hohmann won one, he qualified his win since it was on a bar table. If the intuition of ALL the professional players doesn't match up with the data, there may still be a problem with the data.
I've never ran across a single great bar table player that didn't think playing on 9 foot tables made them better. Not one. Yet I know great bar table players that NEVER practice on bar tables.
I really suspect the fact that FargoRate captures competition data but not practice data can paint an unrealistic picture.
I think there are two reasons that are related but different.
The first is there are more structured opportunities to play one another. There are "Elite" events that are part of the Swedish Pool Tour. I think if dove a little deeper, though, I think we'd find them matching up more casually and playing one another more in smaller events. I believe the Europeans tend to see themselves a bit more as "part of something bigger," and no doubt that is helped by traveling off to US Open or Eurotour or European Championships together. But I think it goes beyond that. The top regional players in USA tend to be a little more transactional in their decisions. They are, I believe, more likely to see the other 740 player as in competition with them for the same scarce resources.
We have less data for Finland and could not really make a good comparison. We have to focus on places where we are deep enough to be capturing most of the high level players.
Could it be that we don't have a club culture in the US, but instead a gambling culture?
Could it also be that US society is too strongly capitalist and therefore more individualistically competitive than Europe?
Could it be that Americans are superficial with their hobbies, meaning they have less patience at being bad at something for a long time before they get good at it? 7-foot tables cut the edge off of the perceived "badness".
Could it be that America has developed an ego of being "the best", and when confronted with something where they are not the best by intrinsic function it is dismissed? (World Cup for example).
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Non-related: Always have enjoyed your material Mike Page. Hope to meet you one day.
Could it also be that US society is too strongly capitalist and therefore more individualistically competitive than Europe?
Could it be that Americans are superficial with their hobbies, meaning they have less patience at being bad at something for a long time before they get good at it? 7-foot tables cut the edge off of the perceived "badness".
Could it be that America has developed an ego of being "the best", and when confronted with something where they are not the best by intrinsic function it is dismissed? (World Cup for example).
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Non-related: Always have enjoyed your material Mike Page. Hope to meet you one day.
sudocrushms
Well-known member
Kind of mind blowing that the only 9-foot tournaments in MN/WI reporting to FR are the Mon/Wed 9-ball at Shooters. We've been seeing many of the existing 9s being replaced by 7s recently also.
Had a discussion with Jimmy (Jimmy's Pro Billiards in north Minneapolis) and he was considering going down to a single 9-foot table. Couple of us begged him to keep 3, which ultimately is what he did.
Shooters has done the same, replacing 8 of their older GCs with 10 Diamond bar boxes. They still have plenty of 9s, but they're being replaced everywhere.
A note on top players practicing with each other: I rarely see the better player in the MSP area play without money involved. Seems everyone just wants action. Look at top players in Europe and they're playing against each other in pretty big groups all the time. I see loads of posts (especially from the ladies) of 5+ of them practicing together for extended periods of time. That's how you develop elite players.
Had a discussion with Jimmy (Jimmy's Pro Billiards in north Minneapolis) and he was considering going down to a single 9-foot table. Couple of us begged him to keep 3, which ultimately is what he did.
Shooters has done the same, replacing 8 of their older GCs with 10 Diamond bar boxes. They still have plenty of 9s, but they're being replaced everywhere.
A note on top players practicing with each other: I rarely see the better player in the MSP area play without money involved. Seems everyone just wants action. Look at top players in Europe and they're playing against each other in pretty big groups all the time. I see loads of posts (especially from the ladies) of 5+ of them practicing together for extended periods of time. That's how you develop elite players.
Im wondering if the culture is more similar to snooker. One of my favourite books is Stuart Pettmans “As sometimes seen on tv”. It’s a year and the life of his experience on the pro snooker tour. In the book he regularly discusses how top players would arrange to practice together over a period of time.
Occasionally, they play for a few pounds but nothing remotely resembling the challenge marches we see streamed. My sense is that there are a couple reasons for this. It helps that snooker is centralized within a small area and most of the top players live in relative close proximity. The other aspect is that with the money on offer, the pro tour is the main way of making a living and so the focus is on preparing for those events. And while the money doesn’t trickle down much to the lower rankings, there isnt much motivation for a Judd Trump to play someone for 20k and a 30 point spot.
Do you see what I do with top players in your area? They practice at home on 9 foot tables and then compete on bar tables?
sudocrushms
Well-known member
Most of them play on 9s at Shooters. Not sure about what they do outside of there.
I had a few ask me to play for $$$, but since i won't most of them won't give me the time of day.
I wonder if someone can provide some reliable numbers on total players in Europe vs. USA.
I think it would be interesting to see how many amateurs you need to "produce" one pro player.
The comparison of total population size is misleading since it doesn't take the popularity of the sport into account.
Just think about how many professional skiing athletes emerged from Switzerland compared to China.
I think it would be interesting to see how many amateurs you need to "produce" one pro player.
The comparison of total population size is misleading since it doesn't take the popularity of the sport into account.
Just think about how many professional skiing athletes emerged from Switzerland compared to China.
ok. then how would the difference be between georgia (which i guess is majority barbox) and netherlands (9 fts)? i think the top 20 difference would be quite substantial. so i'm not sure about the validity in the method here.